(Topic ID: 115360)

The Big Lebowski Preorder Club (Members Only)


By Nilroc

5 years ago



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#6901 1 year ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

Not an external one, but the internal process describes a final stage sign off. That means a signature by an executive such a VP, Pres or Board level. The cash infusion begins and we'll see what happens next.

What are you talking about? What executives (besides Barry & Jaap as directors), what board, what VPs, what president (CEO)? What cash infusion?

I've repeatedly heard people talk about a big money investor in DP, but when challenged to provide some evidence of it, they've never been able to and have backed down. I haven't found any evidence of it either - and I've looked at the company's records and asked around.

Now that there has been a clear path back to production (finances allowing) for around 6 or 7 months, if they had a serious investor I think the process would have been rather more expedited, as opposed to slowly, slowly doing one engineering sample at a time.

If someone with deep pockets was backing it, you probably never would have had the ARA stand-off and 'hostage' situation in the first place, because a company that was flush, or whose backers were, wouldn't be an easy target. Instead, they were strapped for cash and a sitting duck for any potential sharp practice.

I doubt DP can even get a loan at the moment, unless it's from a particularly kindly individual already in the pinball industry, or Barry / Jaap are taking out personal loans. Maybe Xytech are fronting some of the development cost, on the understanding that the build order will be a mix of old and new money, so that DP can immediately start paying them back.

If they can actually get these out, and at a price which will sell (particularly I feel in Germany / Australia), then things might change for them in terms of being able to raise cash or sell equity for less than peanuts.

Now? I don't see it.

#6902 1 year ago

I wont speculate on ARA - I have no idea.

What I do know is that DP has been a terrible company, with little ethics, little business sense and has shown very little regard to their paid in full early achievers.

7 weeks between updates?
Won't provide refunds?
Lies about the status of the project?

No problem.....let Barry pursue his dream.

#6903 1 year ago
Quoted from kapper:

I wont speculate on ARA - I have no idea.
What I do know is that DP has been a terrible company, with little ethics, little business sense and has shown very little regard to their paid in full early achievers.
7 weeks between updates?
Won't provide refunds?
Lies about the status of the project?
No problem.....let Barry pursue his dream.

I only have six downsides for my recent post that summarized what yours said. Let's see if you can attain more.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-big-lebowski-preorder-club/page/138#post-4323862

#6904 1 year ago
Quoted from titanpenguin:

But then again, as we all know, ARA never did order all the parts.

Not that it necessarily matters at this point, but do we know this? Just curious as my understanding, based on the initial DP sponsored ARA factory visits, has always been the opposite. Namely, the parts for all 300 contracted games had been procured and were at ARA's facility in advance of the start of full production. This would make sense from an economy of scale standpoint anyway.

#6905 1 year ago
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:

Not that it necessarily matters at this point, but do we know this? Just curious as my understanding, based on the initial DP sponsored ARA factory visits, has always been the opposite. Namely, the parts for all 300 contracted games had been procured and were at ARA's facility in advance of the start of full production. This would make sense from an economy of scale standpoint anyway.

Don't think there was ever any evidence of that. DP claimed that they'd bought and paid for all the PROCs, and that they were held hostage by ARA. Don't think there were any other claims that all parts had been bought or delivered.

#6906 1 year ago
Quoted from Nilroc:

A lot has happened over the last few months in regards to TBL.
But even after all that some of us have gone through we still believe in the team from DP.
We believe that TBL will get made and know it will be one of the most beautiful games available.
The lighting,music,playfield all ties together to make one awesome game for the Dudes that abide.
I have created this topic in order for us Dudes to converse in a positive manner about TBL.
It's 2015! It will be the year of TBL.

I have no dog in this ugly fight, I just find the 1st post in this thread unbelievable as of now April 2018. I worked for 2 global manufacturers for 23 years - and when you 'miss the market that's there' at that moment-in-time, ya often don't get it back.

According to ipdb.org, here's what HAS come onto the market since this thread BEGAN (and I could even be forgetting a few):
2015 Game of Thrones (Pro)
2015-01 Wrestlemania (Pro)
2015-02 Legends of Wrestlemania (Limited Edition)
2015-03 Medieval Madness (Remake Limited Edition)
2015-03 Whoa Nellie! Big Juicy Melons™
2015-05 KISS (Pro) Stern
2015-05 The Walking Dead (Premium)
2015-07 KISS (Limited Edition)
2015-07 KISS (Premium) Stern
2015-12 Game of Thrones (Limited Edition)
2016 Game of Thrones (Premium)
2016 Medieval Madness (Remake Standard Edition)
2016 Spider-Man (Vault Edition)
2016-04 Ghostbusters (Pro)
2016-05 Ghostbusters (Limited Edition)
2016-06 Ghostbusters (Premium)
2016-07 The Pabst Can Crusher
2016-11 Spider-Man (Home Edition)
2016-12 Batman (66 Limited Edition)
2016-12 Batman (66 Premium)
2016-12 Batman (66 Super Limited Edition)
2017-02 Aerosmith (Pro) Stern
2017-03 Aerosmith (Limited Edition)
2017-04 Aerosmith (Premium)
2017-05 AC/DC (Pro Vault Edition)
2017-06 Star Wars (Pro) Stern
2017-07 AC/DC (Premium Vault Edition)
2017-08 Star Wars (Premium) Stern
2017-08 Star Wars Limited Edition
2017-11 Guardians of the Galaxy (Pro)
2017-12 Guardians of the Galaxy (Premium)
2017-12 Guardians of the Galaxy Limited Edition
2018-02 AC/DC (LUCI Vault Edition)

The Hobbit (Standard Edition)
2016 The Hobbit Black Arrow Special Edition
2016 The Hobbit Motion Picture Trilogy Limited Edition
2016 The Hobbit Smaug Gold Special Edition
2017-07 Dialed In! (Limited Edition)
2017-08 Dialed In! (Standard Edition)
2017-09 Dialed In! (Collector’s Edition)

Medieval Madness (Remake Limited Edition)
2016 Medieval Madness (Remake Standard Edition)
2017-06 Attack From Mars (Remake Special Edition)
2017-07 Attack From Mars (Remake Limited Edition)

Man ... 44 new titles or variants. That's depressing when viewed in the context of that very FIRST post. OUCH.

#6907 1 year ago
Quoted from twoplays25c:

According to ipdb.org, here's what HAS come onto the market since this thread BEGAN:

Don't forget Spooky's TNA and Alice Cooper, along with Stern's Iron Maiden.

#6908 1 year ago
Quoted from highdef:

Don't forget Spooky's TNA and Alice Cooper, along with Stern's Iron Maiden.

Thanks, yep, yep and yep ...+ 3 more.

#6909 1 year ago

And Rob Zombie, Magic Girl, Houdini, and Thunderbirds.

#6910 1 year ago

It pains me to also add Heighway's Alien to that long list.

#6911 1 year ago
Quoted from highdef:

It pains me to also add Heighway's Alien to that long list.

Kind of.
That thread isn't much happier than this one

#6912 1 year ago
Quoted from Homepin:

Talk to Wayne (Mr Pinball)

He said no.
I guess I’ll keep on searching.

#6913 1 year ago
Quoted from highdef:

It pains me to also add Heighway's Alien to that long list.

And that one is back in production for now, barely.

If these games get made again it will look like Alien. The "early achievers" will go to the back of the line.

If Cointaker is involved they will get the first "containers" and sell them to NEW customers. So they make $$ and DP does too while the original guys get F ed. Then again, that's sadly the only way it appears for fully paid guys to get games.

It's Barry and Jaap after all, look at their track record of honesty and full disclosure. What's the point of suing a pair that has nothing? Barry was in big trouble financially the day it all started according to Phil. Thank you again Phil.

I wonder what their occupation has been for the past few years? Time to get back on the payroll.

#6914 1 year ago
Quoted from Rensh:

I have said it befor but also over here it is rather simple to pursuit unpaid bills.
However, you need to proof you deserve to get paid and did your part of the deal. Just suppose that DP has been telling the truth an investigation will proof immediately that ÄRA didn’t fulfill their part of the deal and breached the contract..... So the lack of action from ÄRA where I guess they have at least like 750K at stake (remember that they prepaid a lot of the parts) is proof for me that DP is telling the truth.
Otherwise I totally fail to understand why ÄRA hasn’t filed a payment claim. They are a reasonable sized company but also for them 750K is no small change.

rensh, Just out of curiosity, why do you spell it like ÄRA?

#6915 1 year ago
Quoted from Snoogans138:

He said no.
I guess I’ll keep on searching.

I'd like a Lebowski if they start making them again, but I'd only get one via an Australian distributor. Until then, hello Iron Maiden!

#6916 1 year ago
Quoted from mgpasman:

rensh, Just out of curiosity, why do you spell it like ÄRA?

That’s the auto spelling of my mobile .....

#6917 1 year ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

What are you talking about? What executives (besides Barry & Jaap as directors), what board, what VPs, what president (CEO)? What cash infusion?
I've repeatedly heard people talk about a big money investor in DP, but when challenged to provide some evidence of it, they've never been able to and have backed down.

The aforementioned executives are in Xytech. Remembering Barry has little money remaining, it is 100% Xytech who will fund and deliver the games to new buyers and 150 Early Achievers. All new money will likely go immediately into their accounts receivable and get credited to the project. And Xytech will need to open a new internal project for tracking rented space, employee hours, training, procurement, parts, material control, cost control, cash flow etc. In short, they are paying for and then building and shipping games. Barry becomes the license holder and verifier of quality.

One of the last steps in the final stage for Xytech to green light a project is sign off by their executives. This isn't a simple contract build for them, they are also financing the whole thing. From Barry's posts they need the final product. This allows for a final BOM to be priced and for the final cost/benefit to be calculated for executives to approve. Once the t's are crossed, the money moves and the wheels of manufacturing TBL's start to turn. Nobody has evidence of Xytech's internal workflows so it is all hearsay.

#6918 1 year ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

The aforementioned executives are in Xytech. Remembering Barry has little money remaining, it is 100% Xytech who will fund and deliver the games to new buyers and 150 Early Achievers. All new money will likely go immediately into their accounts receivable and get credited to the project. And Xytech will need to open a new internal project for tracking rented space, employee hours, training, procurement, parts, material control, cost control, cash flow etc. In short, they are paying for and then building and shipping games. Barry becomes the license holder and verifier of quality.
One of the last steps in the final stage for Xytech to green light a project is sign off by their executives. This isn't a simple contract build for them, they are also financing the whole thing. From Barry's posts they need the final product. This allows for a final BOM to be priced and for the final cost/benefit to be calculated for executives to approve. Once the t's are crossed, the money moves and the wheels of manufacturing TBL's start to turn. Nobody has evidence of Xytech's internal workflows so it is all hearsay.

"Nobody has evidence of Xytech's internal workflows so it is all hearsay."

Yet you state the above as if it is fact. You're just theorising. Also, from the sound of statements and from what I've heard, neither DP nor Xytech will be buying large batches of parts, at least to start with. I doubt Xytech (or anyone else) will be taking the risk of fronting large amounts of cash.

If they do get these into production, my guess would be that the first batches are built slowly and in small numbers - probably a container load at a time, and that it will probably continue this way until there is some cash flow.

Of course, it would be nice if Xytech were willing to front more money, *assuming it works out*, to speed people getting their games ... but I highly doubt that they will to begin with.

#6919 1 year ago

It’s pretty obvious nobody’s gonna get anything from these scumbags it was a pure cash grab

11
#6920 1 year ago
Quoted from Delta9:

It’s pretty obvious nobody’s gonna get anything from these scumbags it was a pure cash grab

Cash grab for what? I see no mansion or Ferrari or Fiji islands with neither barry or Jaap. In fact, if it was a cash grab why are they still investing in Xytech? Why didn’t they ask money from CT and Nitro? Why didn’t they accept more orders than the 300? Can tell you there were more people than who wanted but the line was closed. Believe it or not, they still get requests from people wanting to buy and put a deposit (which DP declines).

So where is this cash grab comment based Upon? DP for sure has done things wrong and can be called a lot of names but cash grabbers they ain’t.

#6921 1 year ago
Quoted from Rensh:

Cash grab for what? I see no mansion or Ferrari or Fiji islands with neither barry or Jaap. In fact, if it was a cash grab why are they still investing in Xytech? Why didn’t they ask money from CT and Nitro? Why didn’t they accept more orders than the 300? Can tell you there were more people than who wanted but the line was closed. Believe it or not, they still get requests from people wanting to buy and put a deposit (which DP declines).
So where is this cash grab comment based Upon? DP for sure has done things wrong and can be called a lot of names but cash grabbers they ain’t.

That’s why I am not too worried. It would have been really easy to push the order count to 800 or more and keep grabbing cash, even if it was just $250.00 deposits.

#6922 1 year ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

... it is 100% Xytech who will fund and deliver the games to new buyers and 150 Early Achievers. ...

Interesting. Is this opinion or fact though? If the latter, I'm curious as to what this is based on as the exact state of DP's financial resources continues to be a black box as far as I'm aware.

Quoted from Rensh:

Cash grab for what? I see no mansion or Ferrari or Fiji islands with neither barry or Jaap. In fact, if it was a cash grab why are they still investing in Xytech? ... DP for sure has done things wrong and can be called a lot of names but cash grabbers they ain’t.

I agree. I don't see the TBL debacle as a cash grab by DP either. I believe Barry and Jaap have and are continuing to try to produce a great pinball game. Bad business execution in the process though.

11
#6923 1 year ago

The amount of speculation being presented as fact as far as the internal dealings of ARA, DP, Xytech is super annoying. Can we acknowledge we don't know shit about what's going on?

#6924 1 year ago

I doubt Xytech would be going to all the work and expense to build 4 engineering samples from scratch without a thought through business plan in mind. As an EA I’m not pleased with the TBL saga but think thinks are in a much better place than a year ago. Maybe I’m Jim Carrey in “Dumb and dumber” but at least their telling us “...there’s a chance”!

#6925 1 year ago
Quoted from Snoogans138:

He said no.
I guess I’ll keep on searching.

Given this title's backstory, I wouldn't be handing over payment for anything that isn't actually in stock either locally or from an overseas source.

#6926 1 year ago
Quoted from wcbrandes:

They have asked me to be a plaintive in their suit. Apparently they need a certain number over there to file?

wcbrandes - Are you talking about ARA contacting you to be a plaintiff in their suit along with them?

#6927 1 year ago
Quoted from Hjbondar:

I doubt Xytech would be going to all the work and expense to build 4 engineering samples from scratch without a thought through business plan in mind. As an EA I’m not pleased with the TBL saga but think thinks are in a much better place than a year ago. Maybe I’m Jim Carrey in “Dumb and dumber” but at least their telling us “...there’s a chance”!

ill be the Jeff Daniels to your Jim Carrey.

#6928 1 year ago
Quoted from RTR:

wcbrandes - Are you talking about ARA contacting you to be a plaintiff in their suit along with them?

<insert theme from "The People's Court">

162073661 (resized).jpg

#6929 1 year ago
Quoted from highdef:

<insert theme from "The People's Court">

You can Bank on Bally!

#6930 1 year ago

A great way to not get sued would be to build a few samples but with no intention of building more and keep telling the public that "we're working on getting them out". That's the scenario that I hope isn't happening. I'm sure this is not the case but I sure feel bad for the EA's that put all this dough down with nothing in return. It's not right!

#6931 1 year ago
Quoted from pinsanity:

Given this title's backstory, I wouldn't be handing over payment for anything that isn't actually in stock either locally or from an overseas source.

Mhm that is very true. Tracking down a local source seems to be a very tricky issue. I should probably try and ask some of the guys that are part of the pinball club I’ve joined if they have any tips.

#6932 1 year ago
Quoted from Snoogans138:

Mhm that is very true. Tracking down a local source seems to be a very tricky issue. I should probably try and ask some of the guys that are part of the pinball club I’ve joined if they have any tips.

Ask when they're actually in production.

#6933 1 year ago
Quoted from Rensh:

That’s the auto spelling of my mobile .....

You *can* correct the auto-correct

#6934 1 year ago
Quoted from mgpasman:

You *can* correct the auto-correct

I'm Shure hes a ware of that.?

#6935 1 year ago
Quoted from Snoogans138:

He said no.
I guess I’ll keep on searching.

There is no distributor in Australia and nobody who will touch this mess to be responsible for your money

Try cointaker or some other company selling them, or people trying to sell their spot cheaper than they paid in full for.

#6936 1 year ago
Quoted from Snoogans138:

Mhm that is very true. Tracking down a local source seems to be a very tricky issue. I should probably try and ask some of the guys that are part of the pinball club I’ve joined if they have any tips.

Yes and they will tell you to run, run as fast as you can

#6937 1 year ago
Quoted from Ballypinball:

There is no distributor in Australia and nobody who will touch this mess to be responsible for your money
Try cointaker or some other company selling them, or people trying to sell their spot cheaper than they paid in full for.

Yeah I had no luck there so I thought I’d ask here.

#6938 1 year ago
Quoted from Ballypinball:

There is no distributor in Australia and nobody who will touch this mess to be responsible for your money
Try cointaker or some other company selling them, or people trying to sell their spot cheaper than they paid in full for.

Well, it's not like Heighway Pinball and their current product are any less tainted. LOL.

Game updates bricking machines, parts support non existent, queue jumpers for fresh cash injections, sporadic communication - everyone on the merry go round because the ride to insolvency always sounds so familiar.

In stock or not, I wouldn't be handing over money for either title unless I wanted the luxury of gazing upon a future $13,000 doorstop.

#6939 1 year ago
Quoted from pinsanity:

Well, it's not like Heighway Pinball and their current product are any less tainted. LOL.
Game updates bricking machines, parts support non existent, queue jumpers for fresh cash injections, sporadic communication - everyone on the merry go round because the ride to insolvency always sounds so familiar.
In stock or not, I wouldn't be handing over money for either title unless I wanted the luxury of gazing upon a future $13,000 doorstop.

I don't think TBL is likely to be a doorstop if you actually get one, and Barry has made every effort to support those people who are lucky enough to have one (same with BoP 2.0).

The question is over actually getting one.

#6940 1 year ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

I don't think TBL is likely to be a doorstop if you actually get one, and Barry has made every effort to support those people who are lucky enough to have one (same with BoP 2.0).

Some may disagree:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/for-sale-the-big-lebowski-6/page/2#post-4313137

Only a handful of people truly understand TBL functionality, the parts, or the proprietary design. Lack of available parts of the original game, incompatibility of the new sample games with the electronics, breakability of the lower bowling assembly, and other factors such as the schematic layout makes this have the potential to be a 300lb doorstop. I know because I have inspected/played the game before it broke, saw the vulnerabilities, and witnessed the problems afterward to get it functioning again. Right now, it is not worth the time or effort to correct from my company's perspective. Essentially, the operations manager is waiting to see if a complete boardset could be swapped in design (and potential "restart" of production), than trying to rebuild the entire game. This does not consider some mechanical issues, that still have to be addressed unrelated to electronics. They don't want me spending dozens of hours trying to create a new solution. Other people asked me for advice regarding upgrades or parts, and there is no present source, and the future as already reported remains unknown.

#6941 1 year ago

I agree it's possible the bowling alley could become FUBAR in the event that DP go under and spare parts aren't available. However the whole game? Highly unlikely since it's P3ROC based, as long as you back up the hard drive.

#6942 1 year ago

Definitely. I agree that Barry and Jaap aren't in hiding. They just need to be more proactive on frequent communication and status of the game.

#6943 1 year ago
Quoted from highdef:

Definitely. I agree that Barry and Jaap aren't in hiding. They just need to be more proactive on frequent communication and status of the game.

Why hide they haven't done anything. No Really, they have done NOTHING on this game! lol

#6944 1 year ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Why hide they haven't done anything. No Really, they have done NOTHING on this game! lol

Barry was the designer, FYI.

#6945 1 year ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Why hide they haven't done anything. No Really, they have done NOTHING on this game! lol

I like the capital letters. You must be very sure of your case. Care to share the intel you have to support this claim?? Really curious to hear who founded DP, designed TBL, made all building instructions, etc.

Apparently not Barry and Jaap ......

#6946 1 year ago
Quoted from kapper:

My guess is that they have not pursued legal action because they know that DP HAS NO MONEY so a suit would be fruitless. They will wait until DP has assets to make a claim.
Games being delivered in May or June is comical.

Yeah but if DP were smart they would have wound down that corporation and started another to put fresh capital in.

#6947 1 year ago
Quoted from Rensh:

I like the capital letters. You must be very sure of your case. Care to share the intel you have to support this claim?? Really curious to hear who founded DP, designed TBL, made all building instructions, etc.
Apparently not Barry and Jaap ......

The only thing I am sure of is the Hundreds of buyers that never received a game! So, I claim that no matter who designed, programmed, or Other doesn't really matter if they didn't Deliver the game does it?

#6948 1 year ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

The only thing I am sure of is the Hundreds of buyers that never received a game! So, I claim that no matter who designed, programmed, or Other doesn't really matter if they didn't Deliver the game does it?

You said they did NOTHING. The above is different.

However, again false talking about hundreds. They did deliver 50 pcs. And these hundreds are in fact approx 140 early achievers who paid and in are in like me. There are more who ordered games but they haven’t been asked to pay a dime so they have not gotten a game but also lost NOTHING.

Glad to see that such well informed people like you keep stirring the pot with nothing to tell and I bet no skin in the game.

Look, I am the last to state that DP is without errors. They have made mistakes for sure and it is in the end their sole responsibility. But stop throwing these wild unfounded accusations.

#6949 1 year ago

Barry & Jaap aren't in hiding, they're ignoring. There's a difference, but it isn't helpful.

#6950 1 year ago

No skin in the game for me...i'm rooting for DP to get this ship righted. Easy to be patient with no money in it though, can't imagine the frustration of the early achievers. rensh will the EA's still be receiving the rug? Assuming those were already made by now, should they at least be getting those sent out as a show of faith?

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