And the manufacturer could not see also a penny (or dollar)
Business is only trust. What EA’s did...

Just to be very clear, NITRO has only ever accepted deposits on TBL. We've also refunded every customer immediately when a request has been made. Being pinheads ourselves, we understand everyone's frustration. We DO NOT and WILL NOT accept payment in full without games shipping. Even with Heighway.... although all of our deposits had been sent to Andrew... we still refunded customers when asked, and will continue to do so.

Thank you Nitro Pinball!

I have tried to tell everyone that distributors keep DP deposit money in hand - no deposit money goes to DP, but hearing it from you should eliminate any more confusion.

Very professional.

Quarterworld in Portland. Amazing barcade btw - I think they have 35 pins, tons of amazing vids too. Their Lebowski #35 has a slight delay on the right flipper when lowering, and the upper playfield flipper sometimes didn't work. But overall it was still an amazing machine...just a shame how it all went down. I'd prob still like one down the road, but I won't pay scalper prices for an existing one and I wouldn't pre-order until there is proof that this China experiment isn't bullshit. So, if all goes well and everyone gets their games, that means 2nd hand prices won't be bonkers and I'll grab one in a few years when people sell 'em off.

I had a deposit with Nitro (great to work with) and then backed out and got my deposit back when things looked grim. As they started to look better I sent my deposit back in. I would recommend Nitro/Tommy without reservation.

You do realize that Nitro's post suggests the opposite, at least with respect to Heighway. Nitro says they HAD sent the deposit money. They do not say anything about when deposit money is being sent to DP.

All of that is really irrelevant given the crux of the post (and I assume the intent of your post) is that one can feel 100% safe with giving Nitro a deposit. Nitro ate the loss with Heighway and would presumably do the same with DP. For this, Nitro needs to be commended.

NITRO didnt' say what he did with Heighway he also did it with DP. he didn't.

this is my understanding of Nitro's comment. i guess Nitro is taking deposit from buyers to confirm order.
anyway, it's easier to trust in reliable companies as Nitro or CT then new one that has no experience and we don't know if it masters all the stages of the business

He was just making clear his position as distinct from the CT one, given what went on with them over HW / Alien, and that some CT customers said they'd paid in full for TBL.

ok no problem.

i hope CT did not send the money to DP and had been able to refund those who asked for it.

FWIW, I reached out to Dutch Pinball over the weekend and asked a couple questions which I included in the DP Updates in This Week in Pinball:

"This Week in Pinball reached out to Dutch Pinball to ask if there was any communication or lawsuits happening between Dutch Pinball and their former contract manufacturer, ARA. TWIP was told there had been no contact between Dutch Pinball and ARA since April. TWIP also asked DP if there was a certain number of new orders that need to be received to guarantee funding of the earlier pre-orders, and we were told DP would “probably need some new orders to fund Early Achievers pre-orders”."

http://thisweekinpinball.com/twip-details-alice-cooper-pin-homepin-vs-ben-heck-new-tournament/

Well, DP seems to be very optimistic in my opinion if they plan to start the production at the end of the year.
Are new preorders already opened? If no new preorders, no production?

First off, people need to stop attacking Rarehero
Much like you and I, he helped fund this project. Don't forget that he also had a BoP 2.0. That should prove his loyalty and vested interest.
Either way, he deserves more respect from those who are/were casting judgment.

Secondly, CoinTaker is legally on the hook when I go to recoup my $8500. They collected my last and final TBL payment. I don't care where the money went; I just know my check was made out to CoinTaker and tendered by them. According to Pennsylvania law, we're still within the statute of limitations. I don't care how DP and CT work it out, but I am coming after CT if I don't receive my game in the next few months (January '18). I apologize for the tone, but I am stating this to document my advance warning. Nothing personal -- strictly business. I am not going to get played.

DP (resized).jpg

Frankly, who could blame you? Everybody would do the same.
Wish you the best.

Allow me to clear up some confusion regarding Dedicated Machine Threads such as this one.

There is no such thing as a members only Thread. Not for TBL, Not for a Spooky game, not for a Stern game, not for a JJP game, not for any game. Any member is invited to read and participate in any public thread on Pinside.

If you own the game, please feel free to post.
If you do not own the game, please feel free to post.

All we, Pinside Staff, ask is that you follow Pinside rules.

If you see someone breaking a rule, report the abuse and we'll take a look into it.

Thanks.

Marcus

I saw the flipper action you described the other night while we were playing at Quarterworld.

Great to see the game in the wild, though. It is so pretty. I personally love the dot treatment applied to the LCD content.

Aaron
FAST Pinball

highdef Dude - no one attacked @rarehero. I asked for clarification on how he got his "refund" and whether it was leveraged with a potential call/no call to Universal or not (per his very public post, not my inference).

You are the first person I have heard from that has paid CT directly for the game other than a deposit. I didn't even know that was an option. Are you an EA? Damn, I definitely would have gone that route (distributor) if I had known I could.

CoinTaker should clarify if this is correct or not. My understanding was they were only taking deposits for the game and that was after the EA period. And that they were personally holding deposit money, not sending it on. That would be some serious new shit if they sent deposit money to DP.

I hope they chime in like Nitro did and clarify.

This was a one time deal that we were asked to accept the final payment for DP on.
Those funds were sent directly to DP as the customer was aware of that being the deal. DP has absolutely zero dollars of any customer
who put deposits down through CoinTaker, nor did we sell any Early Achiever Editions and collect funds on.

That's what I figured. Thank you for clearing that up! I still maintain that anyone who wants in on TBL at this point has basically ZERO risk by giving CoinTaker or Nitro a deposit for the game.

Neither company is in an earthquake zone and both have solid reps. So, get your checkbooks out!

And BTW - DP has a huge pile of potential money (deposits and future payment) available once they execute their plan, but only when they do. This is not f*cked dude!

the situation is not really clear for me from a DP side.

it has been said here DP needed new preorders to fund EA's games. my understanding of what TWIP said is DP needed preorders to fund SOME of EA's games not whole of them. i don't know if i'm correct. that would say that DP would launch production whatever they have new preorders or not. So, EA's owners would get their game quicker as thought first.

assuming DP would be able to follow the plan, was there any information or communication about the code?
thanks

I was an achiever that sold my spot maybe 3-6 weeks before the big implosion where it was revealed that the games were stuck.

Haven’t had a White Russian since Phil refunded people randomly. Was holding out for this shit to get sorted, but fuck it.

I still would consider buying one if everything turned around and they were readily available, but the code needs work. What I played on location would not hold up in a home environment. I encourage you to find a way to play before sending money in to anyone.

Remember when the biggest problem was the bait and switch they pulled on the soundtrack? Good times.

While I 100% agree the code could be so much better it really isn't horrible, especially if you compare it to a Stern or something and their BS effort at getting good code on machines lately

Has DP talked about the code? Who is going to finish it?
I think The question need to be answered if DP wants to fill the new preorders list.

They have made it pretty clear that TBL is till in active development. It's pretty low on the list for people to worry about, IMO.

They addressed this in the video awhile back. The programmer moved on to have a regular job.. that doesn't mean he wasn't available for work if/when needed.

The code is pretty good ATM anyway...

I have been the biggest DP proponent and supporter, but my patience has worn thin. Perhaps you can relay the message to DP that January 2018 is my drop-dead deadline before I take action. I don't care if DP has to sell themselves in the Red Light District (assless chaps and all); I am not going to wait until new orders receive their games to get my game that was ordered back in 2014. That's not how this was presented or sold to me. Their supplier dispute is not MY problem. I have plenty of other obstacles and challenges in my life to battle.

Nothing personal but I need a game or my money back come January 2018. I really wanted this game, but I can't allow my $8500 to drift away due to bad business decisions and running changes that affected value (supplier issues, music, code, order of game production). If DP isn't going to resume production where they left off, then they need to be transparent and upfront about it. Don't make people ask.
I'd rather put my money into a new AFM Remake or Total Annihilation because I have confidence in these US-based manufacturers and I know my game will show up.

It'll be good when it's flushed out and completed. They've had plenty of time to catch up.

Code is at 0.48 on TBL; with conventional software numbering consideration that is far from what the original programmer considered complete. For comparison, BM66 is further ahead.

Played both
BM66 is further behind codewise.

I trust the programmers more . All the parts may be programmed to work, but in the eyes of the original programmer the software and game play is a long ways from complete. I wouldn't buy any pin until at least version 1.0 coding; especially considering the history around such examples.

Based on feedback and comments, the state of code is a significant concern. It factors into people's consideration and willingness to drop $10k, as it should. Buy the pin and there is no guarantee DP will finish software. This is not Stern, nor is there any implicit or explicit guarantee code will be finished. So don't buy a new money TBL UNTIL you are happy with the code.

Now, that's a good idea. I may have to go check on things n person this year....

Where's the Code, Dutch Pinball?

Ahh yeah, Nilroc just said it's at DPO. Speaka da english?

QSS

Sorry but I do think it is for new preorders.
But if DP said that the code was still in development it is a good thing to know or say again.

Most of them, yes.

"well this is like , your opinion man.."
IMO the game is already in a top 15 as it is ( PF flow, shots , art , quotes, lightings , overall fun ,built quality ) so it ties any pin collection together anytime anywhere and anyhow too...(ask some second hand buyers)and the music in the game is no issue at all, it fits well and really appropriate + it makes a change from the original. "the Eagles suck man"
Only problem is it's not available for everyone who ordered one yet.
IMO ARA woud get their ass whipped big time in court as they broke the contract, not DP . "Am I wrong?!! Am I wrong ??!!"
I think DP are commited to genuinly satisfy all customers with their purchase , but shit happens right when you don't want/need it.
Pinball is hard...
If you buy one , you'll get to keep it I think as the game is really something despite the code isn't what it will be in the future ( hope I'm right on this one) and the story that goes with it will make it special to you , like you went through much to get it.
This game's story so far is as epic as the movie itself , DP team sweat every day I guess to make it a happy ending too.
I play 10/15 games per month on purpose and there's always some new stuff to discover everytime...so code complete is not absolutely needed yet ( I'm an average player ).
Hope your next white russian is not that far away..

You put way too much credit into that... versioning is whatever the programmer cares to make it. For those of us who have been playing TBL for more than a year... you really are off by hanging your conclusion on something so irrelevant.

you know, many pinheads don't like Medieval. it is all about apple and orange.
Maybe you are currently satisfy with code (and this pin in general) but i think that if it need to be polished with tweaked or coz it is not 100% coded, it should be done. the most important to me was to confirm that the code was still in development. it is. great.
i also hope there will be an happy end for everyone.

assuming DP could execute the plan with no issue, i think the only problem is there are only 2 north america distributors and so not available for everybody. Can Nitro or CT explain how shipping work for EU customers? did they have EU orders? does the pin ship twice overseas, that would be a big nonsense with shipping and customs extras?

Ahhh ... made in the US is now a guaratee for delivery and no risk on pre-order !
Good to know

Lol. We all enjoyed the risk-free, US-based, Skit-B, Zidware (and even Vonnie-D) companies.
Anyone wants my Predator spot?

More seriously, risk associated with Spooky or CGC is indeed very low.

Quote error. Get it right Dude. We have standards in this thread.

I have game #20 and the music is true to the original soundtracks and it is spectacular. The best sound system ever in my opinion with top notch reproduction songs. Bad mouthing the sound is a holdover from when people heard DP couldn't get the licence.

As far as code is concerned it's very good and better than many Sterns. The video that was posted in this thread a few days ago is my machine. The video is over two hours long and the 3 person crew that played and recorded it absolutely loved the game play.

And go ahead and discount DP concerning future code if you like. (I don't, but no matter.)
After some of the home brew guys get a hold of this P-ROC system it will game over.

Let me re-state what I said about the damn music:

Remember when the biggest problem was the bait and switch they pulled on the soundtrack? Good times.

Did I criticize the current soundtrack? Nope.

Did DP send out that NSNL clearly stating that the licensing issues, including music, were taken care of? The one with Roger's picture and the "This is pinball. There are rules" image. Yep.

Did they later take that back and say that music licensing worked differently internationally, and that the game would indeed have soundalikes? Yep.

Were people pissed off about it? Yep. It's in this very thread.

In the grand scheme of things, considering the state that this game is in now, the music should (and appears to) be the least of anyone's concern. THAT'S what I was saying.

As for code, didn't the main guy that wrote it take a full time job? He's no longer involved with DP, right?

What's there is reasonably polished, but after a few games on location I felt like I had seen it all with an exception of a car mode or two.

"can I get some fries with that steak ?" -Drac in MB

stake?

Lots of people like the bones of the code, but fleshing out is needed. Here's a bunch of recent code feedback from this thread.

Definitely! I own both games and regardless of different code numbering methodologies (.48 versus .75ish), TBL seems more than twice as developed as BM66 at this time. I’m pretty sure that all inserts work and there are many modes and multiballs. The biggest thing I’m still holding out hope for at this point is addition of some Knox Harrington, the video artist action. Hopefully, DP will figure away to squeeze him in to laugh during some mini mode.

A Knox Harrington video mode would be kind of awesome.

Amazing what they were able to accomplish in 3 years.