Rarehero is my friend, so I'm not going to even pretend I'm not biased here, but it's not his fault you don't have your games, this is 100% on DP and their broken promises and poor management. Don't tear each other down over it.

I've been out for a long time, got cold feet when they wanted money and things weren't feeling right (lucky me), but I don't think anyone needs special permission to post in this thread. And no one needs to be nice about how they're feeling.

Facebook just did their "check out your memory!" crap on me, look at this thing:

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That was 3 freaking years ago, end of the TBL launch party at Expo. That's me and Rarehero in the middle with @fattrain. Was something like 4 in the morning, before the hotel kicked us out of the suite for being too loud. We were all in on the DP train, drank gallons of the Kool-Aid. I had nothing but good things to say about the company. That's Phil on the left.

Different era. Boy did it go to shit after that.

Frankly anyone who's been in this long has the right to be angry. They have the right to tell DP to go fuck themselves. They have the right to call them out on this latest nonsense, if you think building in China with this new pyramid scheme is a real solution I'd suggest thinking about it more. I know a little bit now about pinball building from the inside, not a lot mind you, but enough to know how hard it is with people who ostensibly understand pinball. Going to China is the last thing that makes sense to me, even if they had the money sorted, which they clearly don't.

I get that people want this to succeed, and you might resent anyone who's saying negative things if you think it's going to hurt the chances of that happening, but that ship sailed a long time ago, nothing needs to be said for people to think twice about giving these guys more money.

If you're mad you missed out on Greg's DP shirt you can have mine, I'm sure as hell not going to wear it.

Any word on if code is still being worked on?

Just two stupid question:
1. If a company becomes financially unable to fulfill all its obligations isn't that the point where it is obliged to file bankruptcy?
2. If a company claims not to be financially able to produce all sold goods but does not file bankruptcy isn't that a failure to file for insolvency in due time?

Koen the programmer left DP a long time ago and has a full time job, so I'd say that's a big NO. He did a nice job on the software, but I wouldn't count on getting any updates.

Clever Aurich ... same with me: I bought one of the first BoP 2.0 sets and waited month for it. When I got it the software was not really bugfree, I sold the set with a full refurbished machine and never middes it. Some weeks later a final software appeared .. thats live.
TBL is exxxxxactly my pin. I love the movie and like the pin .... but from the beginning I had a bad feeling due to my experience with the BoP 2.0 kit.
i wrote to Berry and ordered a TBL *IF* available and ready for pickup in NL for me. I never got an response ....

I know Jules the "Sound guy" .. i know what amazing job he did and can do. We are still sometimes in contact, you write him and get an answer ... but for the guys selling the machines it seems somewhat complicated to write to an potecionel buyer a mail.

Same with BoP 2.0 ... now the software seems to be ready, many people in Germany want to buy a set. All stadartproducts , available on the market but DP is not clever enough to make some sets and sell them ...

But .. I am still looking forward for TBL and my offer is still: Call me if the pin is available, I am over in the NL in 2 hours paying cash and picking it up ..... so fgar I am happy that I did not pre-pay anything in this case.

I don't care if the Rugless still comment. I am just observing that the thread attracts a lot them. Seems like some people just like to be negative at every opportunity. The Donnie's can comment all they like too, they are just annoying.

I don't like DP's current plan and have been pretty vocal about it, on the forum and in emails directly to them. But this is the plan they are following. Who would think it easier to go to China and start from scratch when you have parts, people, and process ready to go, right down the street? In a land where you know the people and the language?

But, it could work. At least they aren't in China on their own trying to figure it out. They have a CM working on their behalf that has a history in China, with the factory and group of workers. I have lots of MIC stuff in my house that works just fine!

I guess we are just fed up of our fellow Pinball mates being ripped off.

I was just thinking that maybe it was just selfless concern for the well being of others. I think you nailed it.

It "could", but I would hope that the dutch owners plan on either making lots of trips, or moving there. Hopefully the latter seeing how China is as far from the netherlands as it is from say New York. Setting up manufacturing via skype won't work. You will end up wasting even more money on tooling that is incorrect that can't be used (see Mike from homepin spending thousands of dollars on tooling for a lockbar only for them to tell him in the end that their press doesn't have enough tonnage to form the shape he needs with reasonable quality, and he LIVES there). Not saying Dutch are building every part (I'd hope they are buying as many off the shelf components as possible), but certainly there are things that need to be tooled up (and have to assemble) Even if all the tooling is correct, manufacturing work procedures and fixtures is almost as much work.

Not trying to be a downer, moving to China is honestly probably their only option at this point (and could make future projects more cost effective), I just hope they realize the uphill battle they have.

What a shit show. Good luck to those who are still waiting. The whole situation smells incredibly fishy with a huge dash of incompetence.

I don't understand the worry here. If they do nothing, your money is gone and they go under. They are trying something...and if it works, you get your machine. Nothing to do but wait....

But someone will have to be convinced to put out more money... and potentially lots of someones will pass you by while you have no say in 'when do they have enough' to start shipping EA games.

It's like being paralyzed and watching someone pillage through your stuff right in front of you.

Uncertainty causes more drama than straight up failure.

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I understand...it just seems there is no other choice here...

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I think that it is exactly. I have been quietly lurking in the thread for a bit, trying to not fray any more nerves since I am one of the lucky bastards that actually got a game (who would have thought that being the sucker in the front of the line would actually pay off?). I have to believe that DP are at the end of the rope just hoping that they can pull this off. Betting that their poker face is good enough to ward off anyone calling their bluff. Hoping like hell that ARA goes away quietly. I understand all of the EAs who are still waiting want to remain positive. Hope is all that is left. If positive vibrations will help push this along then, by all means, I will conjure up a few for my fellow EAs.

So what will become of the ARA built TBLs? Will they be disassembled and sold for parts? I assume the license won't allow ARA to sell them assembled on the open market.

What will happen when ARA sues DP for the games they already shipped and did not get paid for? The ARA mess is not over yet. I heard a rumor that a lawsuit is in the works from ARA against DP seeking damages for the games they shipped and the games and parts they purchased and built.

1- does the code need to be polished?
2- how some EU customers could have bought this pin?

That would be pretty nice deal indeed. Maybe they can also get all specialty equipment ARA may have purchased i.e. all assets thrown in for free. I would bet Jaap has the funds to cover this settlement and then have zero bank balance. This is only my guess, a wild hunch based on some things I've heard him mention in various interviews. If this proceeded, DP could procure and take over assembly of EA's TBL's right away. Two parties walk away whole. Suddenly it's ...

!! Full-steam O_head with DP>

and it's... !! Full-steam O_head with DP_China>

.......Imagine a world which on Jan 1, 2018, DP begins assembly of remaining 200 TBL's. But now with a settlement behind them, they possess 100 percent of the parts and playfields, allowing them to build locally. Using the original 2 large pcb design.

In a seperate universe DP_China> has received final parts and will having many engineered samples by Nov 1. They can now order 100% parts to build 200 new money TBL's. Since DP no longer had unpaid financial obligations hanging over head, this greatly reduces xytech's risk, and that should allow them to increase the project's line of credit, allowing them to start assembly in China on Jan1, 2018....

ok, I am not saying it's going to happen, but it's going to happen. :Rasputin!

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There is a reason DP didn't just pay ARA already... losing a lawsuit doesn't make that outcome cheaper or better for DP.

Where in this fantasy are you getting the idea DP comes out ahead in a lawsuit with more funds than going in?

Nobody but JAAP and his god know for certain, but I believe he has $200k . So yeah I think this would be feasible. But could it be too difficult? or come to find out there is $0 dollars left to start with, then yeah buyers would be f$cked. Bummer man!! Opposite of certainty on spectrum. But it is certainly a possibility.

If they owe ara for the 50 or so machines shipped, Plus the 50 or so sitting on the ARA floor, Plus parts, pieces, ect.... That Could be well over 1,000,000 they owe ARA. If ARA sues and wins, That's all folks. No more DP. I do not get how you could think getting sued would do DP any good. That is the worst case scenario for DP.

Just ask yourself... why didn't he do it already? If it really was an outcome where he comes out with more hardware and free cash - he would have done it before.

Best case they get to pay ARA off for some agreed amount for monies owed... plus expenses. That would be to settle things... then on top of that, they'd have to agree on an amount to buy the stuff ARA has. But this avenue has already been explored and went no where.

Reality is, ARA's claims wouldn't stop at just back money owed, it would be for the contracted amount of games and the money they have lost by not building those games. A loss for DP could mean damages and other monies owed to ARA.

There is virtually no lawsuit outcome where DP gets things at a discount and comes out ahead with more money than they had before.

The best possible outcome they could hope for is ARA looking to recover some loss and selling some goods back. But that's doubtful given the toxic situation. They'd probably just treat it as a loss/delinuient account and write it down.

This is a members only thread only TBL members should be posting here. I like the new CM, new board set, and the plan to build in China. Once the line starts rolling the games should move pretty quickly so waiting a little longer won't be that much longer. ARA suing DP and winning isn't a reality. DP suing ARA and winning is more likely, but I would expect ARA to settle with DP well before that happens. You heard it here first- and No, I do not work for DP or have been given any extra information.

How could DP win? They never paid for the games ARA delivered, Never paid for the games waiting to be delivered. ARA took on all the expenses to be left high and dry. They have a great chance of ARA suing and winning. No way in hell DP comes out ahead when and if this happens.

I don't disagree with what you write but I do with your assumption of why would Jaap approach ARA? as if that was the only way these two parties could have decided to talk. I thought Jaap approached ARA before and they didn't reach an agreement. Therefore he wrote that avenue off in his mind. He blogged about it or something. Maybe ARA has a change of heart and want to settle this lost causes. What if ARA Ais ready to settle and reached out to DP - agreeing to accept 25 cents on the dollar. In that case, it could happen. Remote chance I agree, but still ... by the way, I haven't heard anything about negotiations involving DP. I'm speculating based on a recently read post above in this thread that sounded reliable and then adding my two cents.

24 - Please listen to Jaaps livestream from June, he laid it all out on what ARA did and why ARA never put themselves in a position to be paid. Short story, ARA didn't provide a correct bill for the first 50 games - ARA wanted more than the original contract price. DP did agree to cost increases, but only if all the games were completed and delivered by certain deadlines. The deadlines were not met, but ARA still wanted the extra money. I can't fault DP, or anyone for not paying a bill that is over the true amount owed. Hard to win in court with "my wrong bill was not paid" and "I didn't deliver 300 games, but I was going to"

and that's what we call 'one side of the story...' - and frankly wasn't very convincing because they wouldn't answer all the questions.

Wow EternalLife, You really are drinking the Kool-Aid. After how DP has Lied to us so much in the past, Can you believe Jaap? ARA will win when and if they sue. I just hope DP gets an investor with deep pockets so when that happens there is still a slight chance in hell that the EA's will get our games we paid for over 3 years ago.

I believe in DP and Jaap. The DP open will have a working new generation TBL, we'll all have our games shortly after. ARA never disputed they sent a higher invoice, they also fired their head guy. If ARA was in the right, they would have filed a long time ago..Or is it, "I'm not suing because I don't want the money you owe me for my work and all these parts" so crazy, I almost spilled my kool-aid.

Lawsuits take time. They should not be rushed into. It is in motion from what I have heard. They spent money, Invested in parts, put out a product, and received nothing in return.

We will all have our games shortly..... Heard that 3 years ago, Now they are starting over from scratch. If i would have invested my 8500 in the s&p500 and waited and paid the 10K when they are ready to ship I would be ahead. If shortly means 2019, then Maybe shortly, If ever.

You'll have your TBL before you see a lawsuit from ARA. Need to submit a correct invoice in order to receive payment, if they wanted to be paid they would have. ARA held the project hostage for most of the time we all have been waiting. But you're angry with DP ?

I'm going to play one on location tonight. Will be the first time I've touched one since the Chicago Expo prototypes. Possible humorous pictures to come lol.

How do you know they didn't? Because Jaap the liar said so? Until they answer all our questions or show us the contract we cannot sit back and take their word for it. Keep drinking the Kook-Aid

That’s nice. I didn’t play one for months either but got to play one today. It’s a sign from above Greg that we got to play it again after such a long time in the same day

Had fun playing it and it reminded me of good old times in a certain penthouse in 2014.

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They have rebel flags in the Netherlands?

The fact that neither company has sued the other thus far, leads me to believe they both have poor chances of prevailing or prospering with a win. The amount in question - 30 or so completed machines, parts for another 200 or so, is pretty small in the scheme of things for ARA.

Probably both parties would be better off settling in some manner. If you have ever considered suing someone that you is broke or has limited resources, you would know that winning won't mean much. Especially if you have to spend money to make it happen.

And anyone speculating on who is right or wrong, running afoul of the contract, or whatever, just needs to stop. It's just not knowable with the information we have at hand.

Rebowski

Only one small problem with that story. If DP haven't paid ARA for the first 50 games, there should be plenty of cash to fund production of the first run of games with the new CM. Yet DP themselves have said they have no money left and need the new orders to fund the remaining prepaid ones.

That is always the best way to find an agreement.

Now as DP is responsible of this mess, I have a suggestion about all these completed machines and stuff that ARA has in hand.
As DP has a plan to fund the previous orders with the new ones, I wonder why DP wouldn’t pay ARA for all the production currently done with the new orders and that is ready to ship? In that way, DP can end the story properly with ARA.

Anyway, Whatever the plan, DP should get again the trust of customers and give some guarantees.
This Chinese plan is exotic, I don’t say they are not serious but this plan seems to be more difficult on logistic, QC and communication points.

TBL is a cool theme and I would like to be in but not unconditional. I will never fully paid a game without my local distributor gets it in hand. I only agree with a deposit up to 1000$ and the left on delivery and the price range should be around 7500-8500$. DP should also hire a programmer to polish the code.

Cooked - DP never stated they have no money left. They said they didn't have all the funds to complete the project. Whatever is left most likely is going to the new CM to get the project started. If ARA completed the contract on time and on budget we wouldn't be here - I can only blame ARA.

You did miss the point again, yes.

No, the opposite. But it's rather in doubt as to whether they make a profit, net of all the money they lost, anyway.

I'm saying it's now a very crowded market for high quality, fully featured machines, with 4 JJP machines and Houdini, all of which except the 2 JJP CLEs are cheaper than currently quoted price for TBL in the US (via CT).

They will sell far more machines at a significantly lower price ... but that may or may not be feasible, depending on how much the new bill of materials costs and xytech are charging them for service and assembly.

Also, obviously, if they get more product out there, by selling lower, then there's likely to be more foundation for future machines, as they will finally have proved they can deliver product.

I guess we'll hear detailed final plans in November at DPO ... if not, then I guess no machines will be produced this year.

which company is committed to a delivery date (for customers) with possible delay penalties?
And I guess DP finds this situation (further behind) more enjoyable and helpful?

So we agree.
Why do not open orders to worldwide distributors? That can only help them.

They need to prove they can deliver something first, I think.

But without gauging demand from the rest of the world first, it will probably be more difficult to work out if and how much they can cut the price.

They also really need to clear up what's going to happen with the code, if anything, and who will do it if not Koen.

People will rightly assume nothing is going to happen to the code, if there's silence on the issue, and again that will mean significantly fewer orders in all likelihood.

Revisiting the threads from Expo 2014 are a trip. I guess I have to give Phil credit for knowing how to throw a good party.

Nice try, but no