(Topic ID: 115360)

The Big Lebowski Preorder Club (Members Only)


By Nilroc

5 years ago



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#5601 2 years ago

I'll watch Shark Tank and get back to you with my findings.

#5602 2 years ago
Quoted from eggbert52:

who have zero self discipline.

You must have been looking in the mirror when you wrote the last part of this sentence.

I also just realized why you are so sure that DP will work out. That would mean spare parts for your TBL, that you are trying to sell at a 100% profit. Wouldnt want a prospective buyer worrying about parts and support, now would ya..

#5603 2 years ago

I'm satisfied with Jaap's explanation and questions answered.
No one on this thread would discuss their personal finances with one another why should DP.
They have money just not enough to refund everyone . I'm willing to hang on and let them make the rest of the TBL's and deliver to all the EA's.

#5604 2 years ago

Would love to believe DP for sure. I have $8500 riding on it. I refer back to my numbers oriented post. They just don't seem to add up.

No way to tell who is right or wrong on the contract stuff without seeing the contract. Gotta go with what I do see. DP trying to walk on a contract where they are holding all the cards? Doesn't make sense.

Only thing that makes sense to me is that DP is trying to sell a big woof ticket to ARA/Nivoge to bring them back to the negotiating table and cut a better deal. And I hope it works.

39
#5605 2 years ago
Quoted from eggbert52:

One other thing. I am absolutely amazed at Jaap's poise during the entire WebEx. Guys that are ripping people off for thousands of dollars or who are in trouble financially simply don't act that way.

Not correct. The guys that succeed in ripping people off for thousands (or millions) exude confidence and poise in the face of (literally) impossible odds...it's part of their base line skill set. The con in con stands for confidence...it's how the con works.

I'm not saying DP is a con necessarily, but just because they are acting poised and confident has zero relevance in reading their true intentions or deciphering their plan (if they have one).

#5606 2 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

Not correct. The guys that succeed in ripping people off for thousands (or millions) exude confidence and poise in the face of (literally) impossible odds...it's part of their base line skill set. The con in con stands for confidence...it's how the con works.
I'm not saying DP is a con necessarily, but just because they are acting poised and confident has zero relevance in reading their true intentions or deciphering their plan (if they have one).

Exactly. Think of the greatest con of all..... Madoff.

I don't know DP's position but in my opinion they haven't exactly been straight with the truth, or even middle truth.

12
#5607 2 years ago

I actually found the live stream helpful, sincere. It changed my stance. Yeah, this is not ideal, but tearing them down isn't going to help the matter. Here's what I sent to the guys:

"I'd like to apologize for my refund request earlier day. I'm emotional about the potential loss of my 8500 bucks. However, after listening again to your live stream...I'M IN. I want to see TBL through. I appreciate the nightmare you are in, and I will be in it, and shut my mouth, and let you work through it. Also, FUCK ARA! And their horseshit manipulative parent company. 51%....HA! They can eat 51% of our dick! I'm glad you didn't take the deal, and believe you tried to do what is in all of our best interests.

Thanks for the better communication, the live stream, the weekly updates...it helps. Eagerly and respectfully awaiting TBL #52, I believe in you guys, your dream is our collective dream, and I want to see it come to fruition. You can do it. - #52"

#5608 2 years ago

If one is to assume that something is rotten, then it would be a pretty weird con given that a third of the money is being held by CT, and DP haven't taken any new money in 2 years.

Assuming it's a failed business endeavour**, then at least they're not digging the pit appreciably deeper. ** this doesn't mean it need remain a failed one.

Andrew, JPop and Kulek were always scrambling for every bit of cash that was vaguely available. JPop being at least 5 machines in designwise, and 3 with money taken, whilst the first was just a box of lights. Andrew double and triple selling machines; ringing round his customers pleading for 'investment' when he got a whiff that someone had money; trying to lure distributors with the promise of hundreds of machines if they'd just pay for 30 in full up front, when he could realistically deliver less than 10 a month going forward, and was offering the same 'deal' to others. Kulek I'm less familiar with the details of.

The question is whether Barry & Jaap are, firstly, capable of rescuing this, secondly, if it's too late or not, and thirdly, if they have the will, given that it's going to be a long road. Good news or bad news re: the new CM in the next month is likely to answer that question.

11
#5609 2 years ago

I don't think Tigerlaw was suggesting this is a con. Just saying that sincerity is not an indicator either way. They were pretty sincere about how the board issue just needed to be fixed because they weren't the kind of company that would ship out machines with bad boards. People (some) were praising them for this move even though it would take extra time. Remember how that turned out?

Also - it doesn't even have to be a con to be bad for us. It could just be continuous bad business decisions that allow the slow draining away of the funds that could save this project. They can be sincere and heartfelt all the way down.

#5610 2 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

I don't think Tigerlaw was suggesting this is a con. Just saying that sincerity is not an indicator either way. They were pretty sincere about how the board issue just needed to be fixed because they weren't the kind of company that would ship out machines with bad boards. People (some) were praising them for this move even though it would take extra time. Remember how that turned out?
Also - it doesn't even have to be a con to be bad for us. It could just be continuous bad business decisions that allow the slow draining away of the funds that could save this project. They can be sincere and heartfelt all the way down.

I'm aware, but we're not the only people reading, so I thought it was worth stating. But yeah, the only verifiable details to have emerged in a while are the accounts.

#5611 2 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

If one is to assume that something is rotten, then it would be a pretty weird con given that a third of the money is being held by CT, and DP haven't taken any new money in 2 years.

Can you tell me what you mean by CT is holding a third of the money? I don't think that is correct.

#5612 2 years ago

And if sincerity is their strongest virtue now, they could sincerely share some details of their financial position. Is it true they are taking salaries still? Were the 50 machines that were released paid for by them to ARA? Was it 50 machines? I could make a list. Plenty they could share w/o feeling violated. Heck, this is essentially a kickstarter, they share financial information all the time.

It would make a difference if I knew they had enough money to enact their "new CM" plan.

#5613 2 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

Can you tell me what you mean by CT is holding a third of the money? I don't think that is correct.

The last 100 machines go to Nitro and CT and DP hasn't received a dime from it and also hasn't asked for it

100 is 1/3 of 300 hence the remark

#5614 2 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

Can you tell me what you mean by CT is holding a third of the money? I don't think that is correct.

Not currently, but will if the final 100 games see production. My understanding is that CT/Nitro are to pay only on receipt. So for DP it doesn't matter if that money is taken yet or not - they don't get it until they deliver. Also it will be more than 1/3rd ... whilst transport and the cut for the distributors will take a decent chunk, $10k minus that is still a lot more than $8.5k, where 19-21% of it will disappear in sales tax on EU bound units.

But if there is to be a new CM and Jaap and Barry intend to keep going rather than calling it quits, one would imagine they will plan for more than 300. Albeit, they may not think so now, but I'd consider it not unlikely that they do walk away if they manage to fulfil their commitments.

#5615 2 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

And if sincerity is their strongest virtue now, they could sincerely share some details of their financial position. Is it true they are taking salaries still? Were the 50 machines that were released paid for by them to ARA? Was it 50 machines? I could make a list. Plenty they could share w/o feeling violated. Heck, this is essentially a kickstarter, they share financial information all the time.
It would make a difference if I knew they had enough money to enact their "new CM" plan.

The accounts were just posted, albeit not by them. They've always been available ....

If they aren't taking salaries then they'd either have to find a way to defer them or would be violating Dutch law, per yesterday's discussion.

#5616 2 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

And if sincerity is their strongest virtue now, they could sincerely share some details of their financial position. Is it true they are taking salaries still? Were the 50 machines that were released paid for by them to ARA? Was it 50 machines? I could make a list. Plenty they could share w/o feeling violated. Heck, this is essentially a kickstarter, they share financial information all the time.
It would make a difference if I knew they had enough money to enact their "new CM" plan.

All shared info with achievers ends on the internet sooner or later and ARA is reading internet to. Would it be wise to let Ara know everything??

Some secrecy is needed.

In regard to money for the new CM. Jaap did mention this in his stream. There is not enough money to built 150 TBLs but going to a bank for financing can only be done when costs are known. Their is however enough money to START UP a new CM with development and building prototype/preproduction.

I think for a financial feasible plan more than 300 TBLs have to built. The profit on the extra amount is paying for all the extra costs I guess.

#5617 2 years ago
Quoted from Rensh:

All shared info with achievers ends on the internet sooner or later and ARA is reading internet to. Would it be wise to let Ara know everything??
Some secrecy is needed.
In regard to money for the new CM. Jaap did mention this in his stream. There is not enough money to built 150 TBLs but going to a bank for financing can only be done when costs are known. Their is however enough money to START UP a new CM with development and building prototype/preproduction.
I think for a financial feasible plan more than 300 TBLs have to built. The profit on the extra amount is paying for all the extra costs I guess.

I could be wrong, but I just don't see banks providing large enough loans at this stage, at least not without another party underwriting some of the risk or matching some of the loan with investment in exchange for equity. Interest rates are so low, and the risk given the background would be large for the lender. So if they were to provide loans, I'd expect them to have much, much higher-than-market premiums. Perhaps DP have made preliminary approaches and received good news, though ... who knows.

19
#5618 2 years ago
Quoted from Rensh:

There is not enough money to built 150 TBLs but going to a bank for financing can only be done when costs are known. Their is however enough money to START UP a new CM with development and building prototype/preproduction.

So, to get this straight, the plan is: Take the finite remaining money and completely start over with a new CM. From that, the hope is a bank will lend them the money to build games that they have already been paid to build once before. Am I getting that right? To further clarify, they need to borrow (guessing a generous bom) $5000x150 units totaling $750,000.00. That is just to complete the already committed and spent money? So the bank is going to be thrilled to lend money on the hope of profit from the remaining 100 CT/Nitro games expanded sales beyond the 300. Without even factoring in interest on the loaned money, and giving a generous $4000 profit (not happening but for shits and giggles) give $4000x100 Ct/nitro games equals $400,000. That leaves a deficit of $350,000. So $350,000 / $4,000 per machine means they have to sell at least another 88 games. That is just to repay the bank note without interest and without accounting for any overruns in costs that would eat into the profit margin. I bet banks will be lining up in droves to take on that risk.

#5619 2 years ago

Ok, so I agree with you guys that the unpaid for machines are what can salvage this operation, I've mentioned that before.

Where I start to disagree is in regards to DPs stated plan. It is good to know they at least admitted they dont have enough money to build the 150 paid for machines. Sounds like they may have enough money to get a new CM through the pre-production process (development/prototypes/testing again). And that's if a new CM comes back with a figure that fits inside the TBL build budget.

From there I have a hard time believing anyone will loan DP enough money to build the 150 machines. Look at the business plan. Sticking with an overall net of 20% per unit on this project, the numbers can work, but it's a really tough road. The 150 machines that have already been paid for would have to be paid by loan, loan has to be repaid by profit on next batch of machines (bc ZERO money comes in on the first 150 units).

And they don't need to borrow enough money to build 150 machines, the first 150 pay ZERO money to them. They need enough to build the Cointaker machines too. So a loan for 250 machines so that they can actually start collecting money.

If 20% net per unit is correct (and I think it's less) they have to sell around 5 new units for every 1 of the 150 to break even. So they have to have a total run of somewhere around 750 plus 150 to build their way out of this with a new CM. 900 TBLs. That's a pretty big run, I'd certainly be glad if that happened!

#5620 2 years ago

Skins post beat me by a minute, but I am glad to see another person thinking about actual numbers and not forming an opinion based on DP sincerity.

For those of you wringing hands over the 'secrecy' needed and if ARA reads pinside, well don't worry. ARA knows about 100 times more about the situation than all of us together. And they own calculators too.

#5621 2 years ago

Seeking loans should be a last resort. Taking on debt in their position, and probably with interest rates reflective of the risk to the lender, seems like a recipe for further trouble.

Even if ARA's offer was risible, I still see equity as the best option.

#5622 2 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

I could be wrong, but I just don't see banks providing large enough loans at this stage, at least not without another party underwriting some of the risk or matching some of the loan with investment in exchange for equity. Interest rates are so low, and the risk given the background would be large for the lender. So if they were to provide loans, I'd expect them to have much, much higher-than-market premiums. Perhaps DP have made preliminary approaches and received good news, though ... who knows.

I don't think anyone loans DP money with the ARA contract in dispute and unsettled. But to your point, the business plan probably kills it.

#5623 2 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

If 20% net per unit is correct (and I think it's less) they have to sell around 5 new units for every 1 of the 150 to break even. So they have to have a total run of somewhere around 750 plus 150 to build their way out of this with a new CM. 900 TBLs. That's a pretty big run, I'd certainly be glad if that happened!

I like your analysis. This is a good way to break it down. I wonder if DP has even done this. What is their number, how many machines do they need to sell? Do they even know?

#5624 2 years ago

Bottom line - DP needs to work this out with ARA. It's the cheapest and fastest route. Time really does mean money for them. I'm sticking with the woof ticket theory for now.

#5625 2 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

I don't think anyone loans DP money with the ARA contract in dispute and unsettled. But to your point, the business plan probably kills it.

If potential legal action involving ARA would be a factor in rejecting a hypothetical loan, I think it'd be the final nail in the coffin ... not the primary reason.

Quoted from RTR:

Bottom line - DP needs to work this out with ARA. It's the cheapest and fastest route. Time really does mean money for them. I'm sticking with the woof ticket theory for now.

That ship sailed long ago. Doesn't matter who is at fault or who is to blame, as time is indeed of the essence ... if they waste more time barking at the moon with ARA, all is definitely lost - IMO. They need a new contract manufacturer, even if ARA ultimately does agree to release the 'hostage' machines.

#5626 2 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

But to your point, the business plan probably kills it.

I swear none of these pinball start ups have anything remotely close to a business plan.

#5627 2 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

If potential legal action involving ARA would be a factor in rejecting a hypothetical loan, I think it'd be the final nail in the coffin ... not the primary reason.

I don't think it gets past the business plan explanation process either, lol.

12
#5628 2 years ago
Quoted from Nikonokin:

I actually found the live stream helpful, sincere. It changed my stance. Yeah, this is not ideal, but tearing them down isn't going to help the matter. Here's what I sent to the guys:
"I'd like to apologize for my refund request earlier day. I'm emotional about the potential loss of my 8500 bucks. However, after listening again to your live stream...I'M IN. I want to see TBL through. I appreciate the nightmare you are in, and I will be in it, and shut my mouth, and let you work through it. Also, FUCK ARA! And their horseshit manipulative parent company. 51%....HA! They can eat 51% of our dick! I'm glad you didn't take the deal, and believe you tried to do what is in all of our best interests.
Thanks for the better communication, the live stream, the weekly updates...it helps. Eagerly and respectfully awaiting TBL #52, I believe in you guys, your dream is our collective dream, and I want to see it come to fruition. You can do it. - #52"

I've felt some of this too, we've all (EA's, lovers of the theme) been emotionally involved in this process. No one was a bigger unpaid supporter/promoter than me!

But at some point I gotta quit thinking with my flippers and start thinking with my coin mech.

#5629 2 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

I swear none of these pinball start ups have anything remotely close to a business plan.

So true. Unless you consider "WE LOVE PINBALL!" a business plan.

#5630 2 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

I've felt some of this too, we've all (EA's, lovers of the theme) been emotionally involved in this process. No one was a bigger unpaid supporter/promoter than me!
But at some point I gotta quit thinking with my flippers and start thinking with my coin mech.

I hear you, and nothing wrong with holding their feet to the fire. I'm trying to be a supporter, and after recently playing the game again, LOVE it. Hope they can see this through....I'm betting they do. Hope so, for all of us, not just myself.

#5631 2 years ago

There is no start-up that can price their product the same as a business that is shooting a large volume of product out the door.

If you have an employee making $40k a year, his hourly rate is $19.23 per hour. But his loaded rate is like 2.5. You have to charge about $50 an hour to make that employee profitable. That means that the guy's labor burn rate is $400 per day. Think about that: you run a business with 5 technically skilled employees for just one week and you need $10,000 to cover the expense.

If you give a start-up a check for $8000, you basically funded the salary and overhead for one employee for a month. That doesn't include the parts that go into the game, that's just the labor and associated costs.

I'm a engineering manager and have run $100M projects, not pinball machines, but I know a little something of what I speak. I had a project once that had a labor burn rate of over $50,000 per week. When the clock starts running, and the money starts pouring away, you have to start making product or you're dead meat.

#5632 2 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

Ok, so I agree with you guys that the unpaid for machines are what can salvage this operation, I've mentioned that before.
Where I start to disagree is in regards to DPs stated plan. It is good to know they at least admitted they dont have enough money to build the 150 paid for machines. Sounds like they may have enough money to get a new CM through the pre-production process (development/prototypes/testing again). And that's if a new CM comes back with a figure that fits inside the TBL build budget.
From there I have a hard time believing anyone will loan DP enough money to build the 150 machines. Look at the business plan. Sticking with an overall net of 20% per unit on this project, the numbers can work, but it's a really tough road. The 150 machines that have already been paid for would have to be paid by loan, loan has to be repaid by profit on next batch of machines (bc ZERO money comes in on the first 150 units).
And they don't need to borrow enough money to build 150 machines, the first 150 pay ZERO money to them. They need enough to build the Cointaker machines too. So a loan for 250 machines so that they can actually start collecting money.
If 20% net per unit is correct (and I think it's less) they have to sell around 5 new units for every 1 of the 150 to break even. So they have to have a total run of somewhere around 750 plus 150 to build their way out of this with a new CM. 900 TBLs. That's a pretty big run, I'd certainly be glad if that happened!

This is only true if they are flat broke now, which I don't think. They just don't have enough money to refund 150 EA's (probably because they advanced on the profit margins).

#5633 2 years ago

They're not broke.

#5634 2 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

But at some point I gotta quit thinking with my flippers and start thinking with my coin mech.

You just made my day. Thanks man.

#5635 2 years ago

I expect there are a lot more ins and outs and what-have-yous than we're aware of.

One thing that comes to mind, didn't DP need to redesign some things along the way? If so, wouldn't that cost ARA time and money? Were provisions to deal with this sort of thing put into the contract?

#5636 2 years ago
Quoted from mgpasman:

This is only true if they are flat broke now, which I don't think. They just don't have enough money to refund 150 EA's (probably because they advanced on the profit margins).

Quoted from Nikonokin:

They're not broke.

Your definition of broke my differ to mine but Rensh has pretty close ties to DP. I doubt he said this for no reason:

Quoted from Rensh:

There is not enough money to built 150 TBLs

Again, broke is relative but when you can't build nearly 2/3rds of paid for machines, you are imo, broke.

14
#5637 2 years ago

You know how you can tell that you're never going to see your money again?

When the guy you loaned money to says something like, "Uh, okay, I'm going to pay you, but first I have to sell my pickup truck. See, my cousin is a sheet rock installer and I worked for him for two months, and he owes me for that. But he never got paid for the job, so he never paid me. But the guy who owes him for the job wants to buy my pickup truck. He's the cousin of the guy with the sheet rock company. He's getting sued by his ex-wife. As soon as that's done with, he'll pay for the sheet rock and buy my pickup. And then you'll get paid."

This whole thread reads just like that. A long convoluted story that ends up with you getting paid (for sure!) at some unspecified point in the future.

#5638 2 years ago

Okay, so what I'm getting as the story(for those who paid up front):

2019 or bust.

#5639 2 years ago
Quoted from Nikonokin:

They're not broke.

According to what data?

I read a large amount of this thread, it's 99% speculation. And the other 1% is a big convoluted story.

There are 113 pages of it at this point and it's not realistic or in service of anything.

#5640 2 years ago

They're still in business, aren't they?! I've said it before...this thread is hazardous to your health.

#5641 2 years ago
Quoted from Dkjimbo:

What's now almost equally fascinating is the market - directly below this thread are 3 ads - 2 for "in-hand" TBL machines at 18k and 25k (nib) and a spot for sale for 8500obo. What really and truly is the market for this? On one hand it is a great game! Super rare, dream theme for many, etc. on the other hand what is a paid spot worth? It's essentially a huge gamble and nothing else. Id LOVE to have this machine but no way in hell am I paying 18k-25k....Is a spot even really worth 8500 for the gamble? I'd say maybe closer to half that...assuming ALL the risk for what appears like an ever-worsening scenario should compel a steep discount, maybe even more than half. In fact every day this goes on the value of a paid spot further deminishes. Does that mean the value of a machine in hand goes up? I just don't know.

I think paying $18,000 is crazy.

You're not buying a precious historic artifact from a by-gone era. You're buying a wooden box with pinball parts in it.

There's nothing that would prevent a flood of these games being made by stern or some other company in the future, one all the present management fubar clears up.

If DP goes tits up, a company could buy the licensing and let er rip.

As far as buying a spot on the current production line goes, I would be willing to pay about $250 in advance, with the full balance to be paid as I unpack the game in my game room.

#5642 2 years ago

Since I no nothing of manufacturing why is a new prototype needed ? Didnt they already build one in order to mfg the machines that were made?

#5643 2 years ago

Seriously - why don't you just look at the balance sheet and order the rest of the financial info publicly available on DP?
That should be a VERY important factor in the decision regarding whether to just wait or force some other solution.

There is a lot of info that seemingly no one has bothered to get hold of, and yet the baseless arguing continues?

Sorry, reading the thread with genuine interest but the behaviour of some of those with vested interest is puzzling to say the least.

#5644 2 years ago
Quoted from Nikonokin:

They're still in business, aren't they?! I've said it before...this thread is hazardous to your health.

I agree that this thread is a bunch of speculation.

But there is some hard data:

1. DP are not shipping games and have reported lots of problems.

2. Those "updates" from DP give off a choking odor of terminal gangrene.

When you are a project manager of an ongoing, viable commercial project, you make definitive progress reports like this: "Our silkscreen subcontractor went out of business, so we hired another and they will begin delivery on July 12."

That's what actual progress meeting minutes look like: "This thing happened, so here's how it was fixed."

You're not going to give out vague, uncertain, stalling updates because a viable project is not run on vague uncertain stalling.

Did you see the most recent DP update? It's hard to describe how weird that thing is. They won't resolve a dispute because some of their customers are too emotionally involved in future game production? WTAF?

In the real world, an progress report like that would get you fired.

-1
#5645 2 years ago

Desperately....what other option do we have? If you're so sick of this speculation thread...I've got an idea.... The situation sucks, but stop constantly whining and blaming DP. ARA fucked us hard, stop acting like it's not ARA's fault.

And yes, they need to build a prototype, however, they are in great shape to do it, have everything they need, and they'd need to do it to make sure everything is up to speed w/ the new manufacturer. So, makes sense to make sure the kinks are ironed up, if any (this is pinball) pre ramped up production.

I feel everyone's pain, but they have clearly communicated the issues, and are working on it. I appreciate that, and am not going to further add to their frustration. I'm going to do what I can to help see this through.

#5646 2 years ago
Quoted from Nikonokin:

They're still in business, aren't they?! I've said it before...this thread is hazardous to your health.

DP doesn't answer my emails anymore and has taken me off the distribution list for some reason. If one of you who is still in good standing cares to submit a question and report back, here is a great legit question to ask:

In your new business plan with a new CM, it seems as though your profit will have to come from the unpaid for machines that are on deposit. This profit will have to pay for the build of the 150 machines that have been fully paid, the build of the deposit machines, distributor share, regular overhead, and presumably your salaries over the next 2-3 years.

Have you done the math on how many machines (beyond the 150 left to make that have been fully paid) it will take for you to hit breakeven? You only have 110 additional machines with a no strings/fully refundable deposit through CT/Nitro. How many additional units will you have to sell to make the numbers work?

#5647 2 years ago
Quoted from Nikonokin:

They're still in business, aren't they?! I've said it before...this thread is hazardous to your health.

They are still in business because they still have some assets left in the form of preorder money. They are burning through the money that should have been used to produce the machines. Sad, but pretty much irrefutable at this point.

10
#5648 2 years ago

Yeah, it feels like a fine line between "waiting on finding a reliable contracted manufacturer" versus "paying DP managers salaries until there's no money left to pay their salaries."

Quoted from Foxis:

They are still in business because they still have some assets left in the form of preorder money. They are burning through the money that should have been used to produce the machines. Sad, but pretty much irrefutable at this point.

#5649 2 years ago
Quoted from Nikonokin:

The situation sucks, but stop constantly whining and blaming DP. ARA fucked us hard, stop acting like it's not ARA's fault.

ARA took your $$ and failed to deliver your machine? What promise did ARA make to you that was broken? How has ARA interacted with you in any way? ...seems to me DP should be on the hook for these things.

#5650 2 years ago

Reading this Thread reminds me of the famous William Goldman quote... “Nobody knows nothing”

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