(Topic ID: 115360)

The Big Lebowski Preorder Club (Members Only)


By Nilroc

4 years ago



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#5551 2 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

Not sure how it works there, but here - if you pay yourself a salary, in general you will be paying taxes of some form.

That's personal income tax. I was talking about corporate tax. DP should not have turned a profit from a bookkeeping perspective if the funds were properly handled. If owners/employees drew big salaries and drained the company that way is another discussion.

#5552 2 years ago
Quoted from wcbrandes:

Not speculation. Rarehero never had for sale wanted refund like everyone else that's asked

What was this?

Quoted from Rarehero:

Anyone interested in buying my spot for #56, which has been sitting at ARA since September '16, it's for sale. I just want the $8500 I paid for it. If I actually take delivery, I'll be selling it for $10k+
Have patience or a gambling spirit and wanna take it off my...well, not my hands...take it off my conscience? Hit me up.

Quoted from wcbrandes:

Barry sent Wire for full refund

This claim is based on... ?

15
#5553 2 years ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

I'm 77...In it like you, that's all. I'm just looking at what's there, like you. ARA had a contract to deliver, and they didn't that's a fact. DP is working to get us our games with a new CM.
A great CM delivers 10% under budget and timeline. A good CM delivers 10% over. ARA was so far off the timeline and budget, it's ridiculous - not even close. ARA quoted the game, not DP. Why aren't you going after ARA? We all signed with ARA when DP signed with ARA...
It's unfortunate but it happens, and it will be resolved.
From what I understand CM#1 can be held accountable in court for anything over the original contract DP will have to pay CM#2, and possibly more.

To be fair, it's still a colossal failure on Jaap and Barry's part to have let the situation get to where it is now, or where it was ~6 months ago. They had a bunch of different CMs that they spoke to, and a number submitted quotes. They chose ARA; no-one held a gun against their head and forced them to. There would have been warning signs that things were going wrong, or indications of poor faith. I suspect Rene, given that he was fired, and ARA given their apparently very poor recent financial performance, gave off a lot of bad vibes.

You can't legislate for everything, but you have to have some contingencies in place, and it appears they had none. It shouldn't have taken them ~7+ months since a breakdown in relations with their CM to get another to start a quote process. We don't know whether that quote will be acceptable or not, either, and what a likely timescale is if it's accepted.

Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

I don't know, this sounds eerily familiar to Heighway's attracting investors. New people injecting new capital - and if the plan is based on borrowing enough to refund existing buyers their money, buy parts, setup factory for manufacturing and early production costs, they will have a lot more people and potential customers pulling for them.

The new operators and owners of HW were in no way 'attracted'. They were screwed (as existing investors), just like almost everyone else who came into contact with Andrew. Instead of letting another Kulek / Jpop happen to the hobby & industry, that likely would have dwarfed both combined, they decided to step in to a state of total failure and commit more money and save everyone. Not just people with money down for machines, or those with machines who had no support, but all the others who were sitting in a hole - distributors, suppliers, contractors & staff. Hopefully they stick to their intent & don't find it too much, and eventually at least make their money back. Until that happens it's more an act of charity. But we'll see.

Re: DP, no-one's going to invest or take equity in them until they have a new contract manufacturer, and if they are to be a long term partner, then ideally it would come from them. If the new CM requires DP to fund the build and parts, rather than them front the cost, I find talk of GoFundMe or something similar rather worrying. It isn't investment, it's passing the cap around for donations. Not only would it seem wrong, but raising a difference-making amount would be extremely unlikely.

If they are in a position to build TBL, and hopefully many more than 300 units, then their business should be attractive enough for private equity or equity crowdfunding (CrowdCube) to be viable. I think large bank loans are very unlikely, at this stage, since they likely have virtually no tangible assets to offer as collateral, and a bunch of liabilities.

Hopefully a deal with the new CM comes off, but they'll have a lot of work to do if they want to ensure that the results are better than with ARA.

#5554 2 years ago
Quoted from wcbrandes:

errrr did you see eternallife's posts Tom? These guys are not going grey like Andrew and still come across cocky as hell and refuse to answer any "real" financial questions. No slack should be given to anyone pulling a salary from our hard earned money and refusing to answer the real questions.

I don't have any problem with people being pissed at DP. I just don't get the pass Andrew gets by some people.

-9
#5555 2 years ago

If Barry did wire the refund to RH, why is that a red flag? If you're selling your spot wouldn't you send payment directly to DP so they can change their records to your contact info and DP refunds the original purchaser? I really don't see this as an issue, if it is true.

13
#5556 2 years ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

If Barry did wire the refund to RH, why is that a red flag? If you're selling your spot wouldn't you send payment directly to DP so they can change their records to your contact info and DP refunds the original purchaser? I really don't see this as an issue, if it is true.

It could be construed as a preferential transfer to one creditor (Rarehero) allowing a 100% recovery on his claim, while the other creditors requesting refunds are being refused (0% recovery).

#5557 2 years ago
Quoted from wcbrandes:

Not speculation. Rarehero never had for sale wanted refund like everyone else that's asked threatened to phone licensee again. Barry sent Wire for full refund. Again let me guess someone bought his particular spot without contacting Rarehero. When are you people gonna learn. You think these guys don't lie?

Have they said Rarehero's spot was sold to someone else and that's why he alone got the refund? That seems like it would be a pretty large coincidence...to say the least...

Are Barry and Jaap still drawing a salary? Is it true that Cointaker has deposit money not remitted to DP held in a type of escrow or something? Sorry to be behind on the status of things...fast moving thread.

#5558 2 years ago
Quoted from Foxis:

That's personal income tax. I was talking about corporate tax. DP should not have turned a profit from a bookkeeping perspective if the funds were properly handled. If owners/employees drew big salaries and drained the company that way is another discussion.

They are forced by dutch law to take a salary with ,if i remember correct, a minimum of 40000 a year and pay income taxes over that amount.

#5559 2 years ago
Quoted from cudabee:

They are forced by dutch law to take a salary with ,if i remember correct, a minimum of 40000 a year and pay income taxes over that amount.

What kind of company are they using then? Sounds like a simpler kind of company, not equivalent to a limited company?

And regardless, if a company is not turning a profit, and has no free assets, surely no country would require owners to take salary from said company - or enforce income tax?

If what you are saying is true, one or more of these must apply:
1. DP is lying (if what you describe is what they are stating)
2. They did not incorporate the equivalent of a limited company, but rather a company type which has less solid boundaries between the company itself and the owner(s) individual income/tax status.
3. They did not file the preorder funds as liabilities.

One could argue that only part of the preorder funds would be treated as liabilities and the rest would be regarded as profit. Which would indeed leave the company with either corporate tax, or allow for salaries (=income tax + any social fees). However, again, experienced individuals would be really careful to prematurely chalk down a big percentage as profit.

Anyway, I think DP - and possible the owners as well - have run out of money. And I have no horse in the race so take it for what it's worth.

I have a big interest in TBL though and the business of pinball design / manufacture.

#5560 2 years ago
Quoted from cudabee:

They are forced by dutch law to take a salary with ,if i remember correct, a minimum of 40000 a year and pay income taxes over that amount.

If this is true no wonder they are talking like they still have money to continue on with a new manufacturer. No wonder this is just being stretched out. Oh look we are finally out of money! Wake up people

#5561 2 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

What was this?
A shot in the dark on a forum. Like many others that have formerly sent in refund requests long before this post why was he paid in full?

This claim is based on... ?

fact

Quoted from TigerLaw:

Have they said Rarehero's spot was sold to someone else and that's why he alone got the refund? That seems like it would be a pretty large coincidence...to say the least...
Are Barry and Jaap still drawing a salary? Is it true that Cointaker has deposit money not remitted to DP held in a type of escrow or something? Sorry to be behind on the status of things...fast moving thread.

There is no large coincidence here. It fell on the day he was to call his people about the license

#5562 2 years ago
Quoted from Foxis:

What kind of company are they using then? Sounds like a simpler kind of company, not equivalent to a limited company?
And regardless, if a company is not turning a profit, and has no free assets, surely no country would require owners to take salary from said company - or enforce income tax?
If what you are saying is true, one or more of these must apply:
1. DP is lying (if what you describe is what they are stating)
2. They did not incorporate the equivalent of a limited company, but rather a company type which has less solid boundaries between the company itself and the owner(s) individual income/tax status.
3. They did not file the preorder funds as liabilities.
One could argue that only part of the preorder funds would be treated as liabilities and the rest would be regarded as profit. Which would indeed leave the company with either corporate tax, or allow for salaries (=income tax + any social fees). However, again, experienced individuals would be really careful to prematurely chalk down a big percentage as profit.
Anyway, I think DP - and possible the owners as well - have run out of money. And I have no horse in the race so take it for what it's worth.
I have a big interest in TBL though and the business of pinball design / manufacture.

No, AFAIK what was stated by cudabee is broadly correct.

Dutch Pinball are indeed a B.V. - essentially very similar to an Ltd (UK), LLC (US) or GmbH (DE).

I'm a recent arrival here (Netherlands), so I'm no expert, but MDs in a BV must take a salary of minimum €45k p.a. or equivalent in dividends. Presumably either one or both of Jaap or Barry are MDs. However it may be possible to defer this? I have no idea what requirements for other classifications of employee are, if any.

#5563 2 years ago
Quoted from cudabee:

They are forced by dutch law to take a salary with ,if i remember correct, a minimum of 40000 a year and pay income taxes over that amount.

40,000 Euros a year...each?

Quoted from wcbrandes:

If this is true no wonder they are talking like they still have money to continue on with a new manufacturer. No wonder this is just being stretched out. Oh look we are finally out of money! Wake up people

Yep, talk about not having interests aligned (at all, under that rule) with the pre-owners. Have they disclosed that to anyone?

Well, ARA and DP are going to of course just keep pointing the finger at each other...

#5564 2 years ago

Sorry, this is just too fascinating.

Dutch Pinball appears to be a B.V., Besloten Vennootschap ≈ Private Limited Liability Company. From my passing reading of dutch taxation, corporate tax is determined by the profit reported by the BV. The BV is a legal entity and is wholly separate from the owners.

As such, had they been responsible the preorder money would have been earmarked as short term liabilities, with some margin. That margin would have been used to cover salaries, but the rest would not have been considered profit and would not have been taxed.

Granted, it is possible that *all* preorder money was considered revenue and turned into profit. Also possible that some/all of it was used for salaries or dividends.

What's interesting is that it looks as if anyone can order the financial details on DP. I'm not going to spend money on it, but those of you invested may be interested in it. At least this looks like a page where you can order financial info. Not sure how much info is public in The Netherlands, but in many countries the basic financial reports submitted by a corporation are public for anyone to request.

https://www.kvk.nl/orderstraat/product-kiezen/?kvknummer=591881460000

#5565 2 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

No, AFAIK what was stated by cudabee is broadly correct.
Dutch Pinball are indeed a B.V. - essentially very similar to an Ltd (UK), LLC (US) or GmbH (DE).
I'm a recent arrival here (Netherlands), so I'm no expert, but MDs in a BV must take a salary of minimum €45k p.a. or equivalent in dividends. Presumably either one or both of Jaap or Barry are MDs. However it may be possible to defer this? I have no idea what requirements for other classifications of employee are, if any.

Ah, so a dutch BV both has a minimum capital requirement AND a requirement on minimum salary on the part of principal owners?
Sounds dangerous in a situation where they have been stalled. The company is actually potentially "bleeding" money without anything to show for it.
What happens if a dutch company does not have free capital to pay the minimum salaries (which could happen during a product development phase for example) are they then forced into bankruptcy?

Sorry for the slight OT, but I honestly had not expected the above to be true. In Sweden for example, a company can operate as long as its assets do not fall below a certain threshold. It is quite common for owners/managers *not* to draw salary in troubling situations to limit burn.

-6
#5566 2 years ago

Quote from Razor:
"it could be construed as a preferential transfer to one creditor (Rarehero) allowing a 100% recovery on his claim, while the other creditors requesting refunds are being refused (0% recovery)."

It's not a refund, it could be someone saw RH's ad here and and wanted his specific spot (finished game) - nothing more.

Or you could read it as someone believes the hostage games may be released in some type of deal with ARA before too long?

#5567 2 years ago

dp_financial_info.pdf

#5568 2 years ago

dp_financial_info2.pdf

#5569 2 years ago

That receivable line seems a little light

#5570 2 years ago

During the brief Pintasia agreement with Jpop, at least one Magic Girl and a few RAZA spots were quietly sold behind the scenes. And other spots were sold prior to delivery from American Pinball that no one heard about at the time.

I'm glad Rarehero got his money no matter how it was done. I hope others find a remedy also.

15
#5571 2 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

I'm glad Rarehero got his money no matter how it was done.

I can't go this far. Congrats to Rarehero on getting his money back, but if he received a refund from DP rather than sold his interest to another buyer, then that's BS in my book.

I fear that if we all adopt an "every man for himself - no matter what it takes" attitude, or DP starts to make policy exceptions, then this game and an equitable solution for all investors will definitely be fucked.

11
#5572 2 years ago

If anyone truly believes someone paid him through DP yes through Barry, full price, right after he threatens to go down the rabbit hole and head towards getting license revoked, then do I have a future pinball game to sell you!
Also who is eternallife to Barry and Jaap. Seems has info and supporting every crooked thing they do.

11
#5573 2 years ago

Yeah, that's what we need. Turn a movie studio against DP so not only you but everybody else won't get their game. Fuck it up for everybody, because you may not like what Jaap has to say. Very undudelike. Plus your game is already build. Whenever this goes to court chances are those games will be ordered to be delivered straight away, so you'll get yours in time. But you can still fuck it up for those who's game still has to be build. So how will your actions benefit the process? And if your actions result in the rest of the games not being build, how do you think I (and others) will appreciate that?

Here's what I suggest: DP are working on a solution. Let them handle it, they are plenty capable to do so. It may not go as fast as you like, as there are now lawyers involved who prefer to stretch things as long as they can in order to write more hours. Last thing this situation needs is people assuming thing ruining it for everybody else. Most startup companies need 4-5 years to deliver their first game. DP was already quicker with a quality product. So there's a new bump in the road. Too bad, but once you get your game you don't care anymore. Then it was just part of the waiting process and all water under the bridge. I waited years for my BBB. Once I got it I didn't look back, I just enjoyed the game.
*************************************************
Now, before downvoting the above, note that this is a copy from someone else's post from March 19, 2017 that received 17 upvotes. Ironic, isn't it?

#5574 2 years ago

WC, I assure you I'm only an EA - just like you. I have no additional contact with DP or info than you.
RH made a ton of threats, and DP never refunded so I doubt they did it now.
Just guessing that we may be a few weeks away from ARA settling with DP. If that happens then some lucky person jumped in for 2 or 3 weeks and will have a finished game very soon.
Just a guess so please don't think I have inside info if it does happen.

#5575 2 years ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

WC, I assure you I'm only an EA - just like you. I have no additional contact with DP or info than you.
RH made a ton of threats, and DP never refunded so I doubt they did it now.
Just guessing that we may be a few weeks away from ARA settling with DP. If that happens then some lucky person jumped in for 2 or 3 weeks and will have a finished game very soon.
Just a guess so please don't think I have inside info if it does happen.

#5576 2 years ago

Facts learned from?
the Source?
second hand?
Stupid podcasts?

#5577 2 years ago

For those who missed it, stream is up again at

http://www.dutchpinball.com/livestream

You can (re)watch it if you desire so

16
#5578 2 years ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

Just guessing that we may be a few weeks away from ARA settling with DP. If that happens then some lucky person jumped in for 2 or 3 weeks and will have a finished game very soon.
Just a guess so please don't think I have inside info if it does happen.

In life, there is a time for optimism, and a time for realism.

Presently, there are more problems than any offered solution, which is was already partially rejected out of pride.
The manufacturing contract is void until end of long term legal litigation.
ARA and DP are not on proper terms, and financial insolvency exists regarding Dutch Pinball.

I recognize that does not help people to receive refunds, because there is no money to give to give pre-order buyers.
It is too late, and the most of the money is already gone.
Nor does it assist in the release of whatever unknown number of games ARA may be holding, which is still undetermined as is their disposition.
I am not sure why people believe that they have funds enough to do anything production except use the remaining pre-order financiers money for court and legal fees, as it is not going to development or production of games.

I don't like the nature of what has happened either, predominantly because it damages much more than people realize in the long run.
People are not looking at the bigger aspects.
There are far reaching impacts than buyers just losing money, buyers lose TRUST in the industry.
Operators, collectors, and new owners.

The livestream was evidence of the level of pinball manufacturing inexperience and current state of events.
Essentially, there is no progress, and a lot of excuses.
Listening to 39 minutes of excuses is just depressing, and might even make some angry.

If enthusiasts cannot see the stalling of more time by the company owners presently and repeatedly, increasing overwhelming odds against recovery, reduced chances of additional investors wanting to conduct a bailout while DP is under litigation which is simply illogical, and the unwillingness of any others manufacturers to want to get involved, I cannot do anything more to provide examples than were already shown and demonstrated.

If people keep believing what they want to hear, they are going to lose.
Dutch Pinball has a related comparison to Heisenberg's uncertainty principle.
The inability to determine position and momentum at the same time, but there is certainly a clear direction.
The only real difference was Werner Heisenberg was German, not Dutch.

The Shell Game DP (resized).jpg

#5579 2 years ago
Quoted from Rensh:

For those who missed it, stream is up again at
http://www.dutchpinball.com/livestream
You can (re)watch it if you desire so

This time without Barry's e-mail inbox!

11
#5580 2 years ago

Oh joy, theblackknight is here to finally educate us all on the situation.

#5581 2 years ago
Quoted from knockerlover:

Oh joy, theblackknight is here to finally educate us all on the situation.

It is unfortunate enthusiasts do not read other forums.

PinSide is not the only source of news, and others are less drama driven, and certainly more hospitable.
In fact, you can still have discussions with designers and manufacturers that seem to be a bit absent here...
This has been a discussion in other parts of the pinball world beyond PinSide for industry not related to the game or features itself, but rather the capabilities of the Dutch Pinball to be able to produce games, which many prefer to focus on based on long term importance.
Quite some time since around early 2015, and long before it was discovered the active deception of lack of effective manufacturing progress for the entire last year. In the case of other manufacturers, as early as 2010.

I still see people here being overly expectative, such as buying pre-order slots from others regarding this particular game title.
That is more than concerning.

The biggest problem is when people try to help upfront, they get dismissed as being inaccurate.
Then later on when the problems are revealed, people act like they are presently on some sort of high horse crusade.
Most of the PinSide trolls ran industry representatives completely out of this forum, or in some cases information was deleted.
Many designers refuse to actively comment on any of their games.
Some have begun to think enthusiasts are simply open wallets with low pinball IQs.
It did not used to be this way.
Previously, they actually asked collectors how we could improve titles and the industry.
They received constructive feedback, and technical support for game service bulletins.

If individuals think this problem was new or unknowing, then why have certain collectors watched this occurrence happen 5 times in the past 7 years?
Does anyone remember the discussion provided by Dutch Pinball representatives in the United States warning of potential manufacturing problems in 2015?
I do not see much of anything related to it in over 5000+ posts.
This was very important, but missing.
The answer is quite simple, some people were not in the hobby to see what has already occurred, or perhaps chose not to see.
People can dismiss that people never said anything, but this is inaccurate.

There is a certain expectation that people with knowledge say something, otherwise every pinball potential pinball owner is like a mushroom, "being kept in the dark, and fed $#@!"
It propagates continuing issues in this hobby.
If owners want to be kept in the dark, that seems more than a bit odd to me.

The comment listed above is another example.

#5582 2 years ago
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:

I can't go this far. Congrats to Rarehero on getting his money back, but if he received a refund from DP rather than sold his interest to another buyer, then that's BS in my book.
I fear that if we all adopt an "every man for himself - no matter what it takes" attitude, or DP starts to make policy exceptions, then this game and an equitable solution for all investors will definitely be fucked.

There's no contract that binds buyers together... the situation sucks for you guys as buyers, but everyone entered the situation (1) knowing there's tremendous risk and (2) as individuals. The credibility of DP went right out the window when they lied... that's your policy exception right there. That stuff starts happening and you (as the buyer) need to take steps to take care of yourself. Hopefully everyone can negotiate a way to make themselves whole in this situation.

#5584 2 years ago
Quoted from 27dnast:

That stuff starts happening and you (as the buyer) need to take steps to take care of yourself.

No doubt. And they are not all similarly situated. The ones "next in line" with games actually made but held hostage by ARA are in a totally different situation than those "last in line" with different possible remedies and even possibly different liable parties.

I'm glad RH found a way to get his hard earned money returned to him. Good for him. I hope the others find their own path to a result that is satisfactory to them (be that their money being returned or their game being delivered/made).

#5585 2 years ago
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:

I can't go this far. Congrats to Rarehero on getting his money back, but if he received a refund from DP rather than sold his interest to another buyer, then that's BS in my book.
I fear that if we all adopt an "every man for himself - no matter what it takes" attitude, or DP starts to make policy exceptions, then this game and an equitable solution for all investors will definitely be fucked.

I agree that while some hope remains, the above is worth bearing in mind before people do anything rash.

However, I would say that Rarehero did do DP one enormous favour.

In originally going to ARA, and their MD spilling the beans (or their / his side of it), this not only freed DP of the burden of their own lie about boards, whilst they tried to solve the deadlock, but it likely hugely tilted things in their favour if the dispute reaches court; his subsequent firing just underlines that. That may not mean much to DP's bottom line or customers at the moment, but it does remove a potential obstacle for would be partners, and that's big.

#5586 2 years ago
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

It is unfortunate enthusiasts do not read other forums.
PinSide is not the only source of news, and others are less drama driven, and certainly more hospitable.

I grow weary of your "I was here before you" attitude, speaking of hospitality.. and the whole I was and am still on RGP, etc. etc. etc. it's a tired story you're always sowing. Stop acting like you're the wisest and most knowledgeable person in all of the hobby, and that we couldn't possibly know any better because we absolutely haven't been around as long.

#5587 2 years ago

If you watched that entire WebEx and you still think these guys from DP are full of shit then you need to reassess your ability to read people.

Bottom line: These guys should have done this project in the U.S. where they would have been protected by contract laws and this never would have happened. It's clear that Barry and Jaap are sincere but obviously were a little out of their league in terms of running a business in Europe. It's that simple.

Also, it's fair to note that after watching this entire interview, it's clear that 88% of the comments on Pinside and in this thread are biased, inaccurate, and based on pure emotion rather than facts.

ARA clearly knew they had a piss ant pinball company that they could abuse and bet their strong hand against the possibility that DP would sue knowing that would be a route that DP would never take and would more than likely bankrupt the company before seeing it to fruition.

#5588 2 years ago
Quoted from eggbert52:

If you watched that entire WebEx and you still think these guys from DP are full of shit then you need to reassess your ability to read people.
Bottom line: These guys should have done this project in the U.S. where they would have been protected by contract laws and this never would have happened. It's clear that Barry and Jaap are sincere but obviously were a little out of their league in terms of running a business in Europe. It's that simple.
Also, it's fair to note that after watching this entire interview, it's clear that 88% of the comments on Pinside and in this thread are biased, inaccurate, and based on pure emotion rather than facts.

I wholeheartedly agree.

#5589 2 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

At least they didn't make an exit plan last September and begin a Hydrofoil company.

They don't know what an "exit plan" means

They will be selling selfie sticks to tourists in Amsterdam soon enough

Gotta squeeze the last drop of cash out first

#5590 2 years ago
Quoted from knockerlover:

I wholeheartedly agree.

It's just amazing how clear this shit is. Smart move trying to buy a spot.

#5591 2 years ago
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:

I can't go this far. Congrats to Rarehero on getting his money back, but if he received a refund from DP rather than sold his interest to another buyer, then that's BS in my book.
I fear that if we all adopt an "every man for himself - no matter what it takes" attitude, or DP starts to make policy exceptions, then this game and an equitable solution for all investors will definitely be fucked.

Unfortunately that is part of the pinball culture

Who tried to pass it off as a sale to some dumbass versus a refund?

#5592 2 years ago
Quoted from knockerlover:

This time without Barry's e-mail inbox!

Yea pretty unprofessional. Good to know who's a regular and gets their own folder for storing archival emails.

10
#5593 2 years ago
Quoted from eggbert52:

If you watched that entire WebEx and you still think these guys from DP are full of shit then you need to reassess your ability to read people.
Bottom line: These guys should have done this project in the U.S. where they would have been protected by contract laws and this never would have happened. It's clear that Barry and Jaap are sincere but obviously were a little out of their league in terms of running a business in Europe. It's that simple.
Also, it's fair to note that after watching this entire interview, it's clear that 88% of the comments on Pinside and in this thread are biased, inaccurate, and based on pure emotion rather than facts.
ARA clearly knew they had a piss ant pinball company that they could abuse and bet their strong hand against the possibility that DP would sue knowing that would be a route that DP would never take and would more than likely bankrupt the company before seeing it to fruition.

You are only hearing what DP wants you to hear. ARA's side of the story is DP did not pay the bill, at all, even for the games already shipped. Keep drinking the Kool-Aid. They are broke, The money is gone. They are done. Why would they need financing if our preorder money was still there? They wouldn't.

#5594 2 years ago
Quoted from foxtj24:

You are only hearing what DP wants you to hear. ARA's side of the story is DP did not pay the bill, at all, even for the games already shipped. Keep drinking the Kool-Aid. They are broke, The money is gone. They are done. Why would they need financing if our preorder money was still there? They wouldn't.

You're an ill informed skeptic with zero listening or business skills. Do you "honestly" believe that two guys who want to build this pinball, knowing they weren't going to get rich out of it, are going to not pay a bill that interferes with their ultimate goal? Once again, highly doubtful.

And by the way, don't tell me what I'm "hearing." I'm pretty fucking smart.

Tell you what 24. I'll bet $10K right now with you that they get all 300 machines built in the next 2 years.

#5595 2 years ago
Quoted from eggbert52:

You're an ill informed skeptic with zero listening or business skills. Do you "honestly" believe that two guys who want to build this pinball, knowing they weren't going to get rich out of it, are going to not pay a bill that interferes with their ultimate goal? Once again, highly doubtful.

If they did not have the money to pay the bill, absolutely believe that.

#5596 2 years ago
Quoted from foxtj24:

If they did not have the money to pay the bill, absolutely believe that.

And once again like the other 50,000 posts in here, you have only speculation and zero facts. Let's both come up with $10K and we'll let Iceman put it in escrow till exactly 2 years from now.

#5597 2 years ago
Quoted from eggbert52:

And once again like the other 50,000 posts in here, you have only speculation and zero facts.

You only have DP's word. Which is worthless. They are know liars. This is just another stalling tactic by them. If they cannot afford to refund us, How can they afford to make the games? They cant. That is why they need financing for games that are already 100% paid for. FACT

#5598 2 years ago

I would say their ultimate goal was to make money. Well, unless they started this thing as a charity.

#5599 2 years ago
Quoted from foxtj24:

You only have DP's word. Which is worthless. They are know liars. This is just another stalling tactic by them. If they cannot afford to refund us, How can they afford to make the games? They cant. That is why they need financing for games that are already 100% paid for. FACT

Have you never in your life told a lie? We are all human. I think we need to move on from what was said about the boards, and look more at today.

DP very well may have not paid their first invoice because ARA tried to upcharge them, right?

What I heard in the webinar was they don't have the money to refund everyone 140/150 people. I think I also heard them say they have the money to refund maybe 60 people which would mean they have about 500k in operating capital.

Just because you didn't hear the answers exactly as you would've wanted doesn't mean they didn't address the questions.

-14
#5600 2 years ago
Quoted from icust298:

I would say their ultimate goal was to make money. Well, unless they started this thing as a charity.

Obviously this is always the hope of any small business. However, the greater goal is to build, expand, and truly develop into a business. Most businesses just starting out can only dream to break even with their first effort. Jesus, watching just one rerun of Shark Tank would teach you that.

One other thing. I am absolutely amazed at Jaap's poise during the entire WebEx. Guys that are ripping people off for thousands of dollars or who are in trouble financially simply don't act that way. Not to mention the fact he had to deal with 86 questions from a bunch of whiny cry babies who have zero self discipline.

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