(Topic ID: 115360)

The Big Lebowski Preorder Club (Members Only)


By Nilroc

4 years ago



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#5501 2 years ago

Although Jaap and Barry (not surprisingly) only answered a portion of the 30 questions I submitted, I appreciate them providing today's info session. At this point, I feel my best option as a fully vested EA, is to keep hanging in there with them and, at the very least, see how the new contract manufacturer option takes shape.

On a side note, he who shall not be named (on Pinside) has reported in his latest podcast that Rarehero has sold his TBL interest to someone else. If true, congrats to Greg and I hope that he was able to recover as much of his investment as possible! For the rest of us above #51 +/-, the long anxious wait for our TBL continues ...

#5502 2 years ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

Were we on the same stream?? They are going forward with a new CM to deliver TBL's.

That is their INTENT - but nothing is done. They don't even have a proposal yet - so you don't even know if its viable yet.. nor if this CM will be the one.. just like the last ones visited didn't pan out. The takeaway from that portion is they are trying to move on from ARA (but as RTR mentions.. that doesn't mean ARA is moving on from them...). If you are ARA and just fronted 1.5+million dollar build... you are just going to let the buyer walk out scott free? I would imagine their position has to be FAR FAR worse than even DP is portraying to just walk away from that.

Quoted from EternalLife:

DP has all documentation and plans for building TBL which we own, not ARA as Barry and Jaap wrote all the assembly instructions.

This was a slice of good news, but it could also be a bit of smoke and mirrors. The instructions for assembly, QA, etc are very valuable.. especially if they are vetted as that will save time and improve initial quality. But that alone doesn't mean they have EVERYTHING needed. Considering the game was largely redesigned to make it manufacturable, plus new electronics... I'm more skeptical of those comments to suggest they have everything needed completely free of ARA. I hope they do, but their statements alone in the video do not confirm that.

22
#5503 2 years ago
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:

On a side note, he who shall not be named (on Pinside) has reported in his latest podcast that Rarehero has sold his TBL interest to someone else. If true, congrats to Greg and I hope that he was able to recover as much of his investment as possible! For the rest of us above #51 +/-, the long anxious wait for our TBL continues ...

Not sure I should post anymore since I'm not a member....but I got 100% of my $8500.

Now I'm trying to decide if I should sell my entire BOP w/ 2.0 or just remove the kit & sell that.

Then I will truly be free of "all this".

I wish everyone the best. I hope everyone gets their money or games.

Peace & Love.

#5504 2 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Not sure I should post anymore since I'm not a member....but I got 100% of my $8500.
Now I'm trying to decide if I should sell my entire BOP w/ 2.0 or just remove the kit & sell that.
Then I will truly be free of "all this".
I wish everyone the best. I hope everyone gets their money or games.
Peace & Love.

Congrats. I don't blame you for dropping out, but will miss your posts in this thread.

#5505 2 years ago

I'll be hanging in for the time being.
What other choice do I really have.
Hopefully this new CM will work out and all we all get our TBL's eventually.

#5506 2 years ago

If I were DP, I could pay whatever the new CM wants - and send the bill to ARA and Nivoge for breach of the original contract for the original 300 games.

#5507 2 years ago

Damn, I thought this was to be at 6PM EST? Is this available for replay anywhere?

#5508 2 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Not sure I should post anymore since I'm not a member....but I got 100% of my $8500.
... I wish everyone the best. I hope everyone gets their money or games.
Peace & Love.

Cha ching - outstanding!

At the risk of being labeled a "fool" (as your buyer was in the aforementioned podcast), I'm gonna keep ridin' that TBL roller coaster!

TBL Roller Coaster (resized).png

#5509 2 years ago

I'm willing to buy a spot as well if anyone is looking to cash out and get some of your money back.

#5511 2 years ago

Knockerlover....how much are you paying? I'm #52 and have been considering selling, but was planning on awaiting confirmation all is good. You're probably hoping to get a deal, and I won't sell for less than 8500.00 Just curious...

#5512 2 years ago
Quoted from Nikonokin:

Knockerlover....how much are you paying? I'm #52 and have been considering selling, but was planning on awaiting confirmation all is good. You're probably hoping to get a deal, and I won't sell for less than 8500.00 Just curious...

Sounds like there are buyers out there for 8500. Maybe tuna delight has some friends.

21
#5513 2 years ago

Wow

Who would buy "a spot" on the Titanic?

I hope somehow it works out but these guys are some pretty good con men.

The fact they can still hang around and act like nothing is wrong is amazing. Total losers. Go hang out with Jpop and make a game. These guys are disgusting and STILL aren't taking any responsibility for what they have done!

WTF

10
#5514 2 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Total losers. These guys are disgusting and STILL aren't taking any responsibility for what they have done!

Calling DP "losers" is a bit extreme and unjust. They were passionate about pinball and decided to make games that stood apart from Stern. They may not be the best businessmen, but they're sure as hell good at designing killer pinball products.

Jaap owned up to their mistakes in today's recorded stream. Should we beat a dead horse? It is not like DP vanished and fled to Columbia with our money. They are trying and have been much better on communication the past few months.

It's definitely been a hellish ride, but this game is undoubtedly special. No one else is going to step up with a comparable "outside-the-box" theme, so why not support them? They are good for pinball.

10
#5515 2 years ago
Quoted from highdef:

Calling DP "losers" is a bit extreme and unjust. They were passionate about pinball and decided to make games that stood apart from Stern. They may not be the best businessmen, but they're sure as hell good at designing killer pinball products.
Jaap owned up to their mistakes in today's recorded stream. Should we beat a dead horse? It is not like DP vanished and fled to Columbia with our money. They are trying and have been much better on communication the past few months.
It's definitely been a hellish ride, but this game is undoubtedly special. No one else is going to step up with a comparable "outside-the-box" theme, so why not support them? They are good for pinball.

Well, they aren't "winners".

#5516 2 years ago

Sorry guys, this is gonna be a long one one. Did DP actually throw any numbers out at all? Please don't make me watch the video.

If we aren't talking actual numbers at this point, then we aren't really talking gang. The math is not that complicated. Many people posting on this thread haven't given the math a good thinkin'.

If DP collected money for 190 machines, that is about 1,615,000 bucks at $8,500 usd per machine. About 50 machines have been delivered. If DP spent X, then what they have left to completely build the remaining 140 EA games is 1,615,000 - X. This figure is what they have left to pay a new CM.

The first big question is what does X equal? Salaries for Jaap and Barry for 3 years and others for some period (are they still taking a salary - was that answered?)? Travel and promotion? Research/development? Splits with distributors for machines delivered? Payments to ARA (I'm sure they made some)? Taxes (you don't receive 1.6m bucks without paying the tax man)? Rent? Legal fees? Insurance? Telecom? Electric? Whatever the hell they spent developing BOP 25? Sexy bowling girl outfits?

Let's pretend that another number, Y, represents the potential net income that DP would realize off of a run of 250 machines (300 total, 50 already delivered). I have no earthly idea what Y might be. For the sake of argument let's say it's $2,000 per machine, even figuring in development and promotion costs. That would 500k. If Y=3,000 per machine, then 750k. I can't believe it would be more than that, but let's hope.

Point is that X is a number that is significant. And if X < Y = Big Problem ----- Especially in a new CM scenario. So unless they have saved a bunch of money, and kept X as small as possible, they are going to have a hard time striking a new deal with a new CM to start at machine # 51 and move forward fresh.

Hoping X > Y in a new CM scenario still only works if ARA does nothing. You think ARA will just sit on their hands and ditch parts or sell for scrap parts for 250 more machines they can't sell? If ARA decides to fight DP over this, it makes X a lot bigger and new CM or investor stepping in very unlikely.

IMO, DP and ARA have to work this out. Even if DP gets an investor, DP has to work with ARA. I find it super unlikely that ARA is in violation of the contract in such an egregious manner that DP has a slam dunk case - but they choose not to pursue it. Instead, they go the long way - start over from scratch? Does that make sense to any of you?

#5517 2 years ago
Quoted from Pimp77:

Well, they aren't "winners".

No one is perfect. It takes failure to succeed. Again, it's not like they vanished into thin air. I don't think a comparison to JPop or SkitB is a fair comparison.

#5518 2 years ago
Quoted from highdef:

No one is perfect. It takes failure to succeed. Again, it's not like they vanished into thin air. I don't think a comparison to JPop or SkitB is a fair comparison.

I agree. They cranked out a small but successful run of machines working with ARA. They have the ability to salvage this for sure.

#5519 2 years ago
Quoted from highdef:

It's definitely been a hellish ride, but this game is undoubtedly special. No one else is going to step up with a comparable "outside-the-box" theme, so why not support them? They are good for pinball.

Good for pinball working for somebody else and building/designing pins? Maybe so. They are talented.

Not taking in other people's $$$ and trying to run a business.

They can't do it. Don't have the skills.

They are Jpop, good ideas without the ability to get it done. And none of them seem to have any remorse because of their gigantic egos.

Where has all the $$$ gone and why haven't they moved on to get other jobs? The numbers can't possibly add up.

#5520 2 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

The numbers can't possibly add up.

Just sit back, and wait out their timeline... then the numbers will be more in line with reality. Broke now doesn't make as much sense as being broke six more weeks from now - time only starts when you have to start telling the 'truth'.

#5521 2 years ago

I dont have a horse in this, though was very close early on. I cant see how this works from now on unless they get an investor or borrow some money (like normal businesses need to do) OR they begin selling more TBL's. I highly doubt anyone is going to buy a TBL from Dutch unless they physically had one in their hands (mind you, Rarehero just sold his spot, so there is always one person i guess). So it really comes down to investor/loan.

14
#5522 2 years ago
Quoted from knockerlover:

Sounds like there are buyers out there for 8500. Maybe tuna delight has some friends.

There is no one out there willing to pay the whole 8500 dollars, lets not be stupid. It just happened to go to the guy with the loudest voice and a straight line to the people who control the license and guess what..... he didn't even have his machine for sale. Good work Rarehero I tip my hat to your brilliant play. Thanks Barry for paying out the select ONE you choose to pay with my money and every one elses. Let me guess someone wanted a spot and you just happened to choose Rarehero and sent a personal wire to his account. This one stinks to high heaven and wires don't lie, however it's proven DP does.

#5523 2 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

...The math is not that complicated. Many people posting on this thread haven't given the math a good thinkin'.
If DP collected money for 190 machines, that is about 1,615,000 bucks at $8,500 usd per machine. About 50 machines have been delivered. If DP spent X, then what they have left to completely build the remaining 140 EA games is 1,615,000 - X. This figure is what they have left to pay a new CM.
The first big question is what does X equal?
.....
Taxes (you don't receive 1.6m bucks without paying the tax man)?

I agree with the sentiment of your post, but *if* they know what they are doing you are wrong about taxation. The funds paid by preorder customer should have been marked as the short term debt that they are, as such they would not be profit and therefor not taxed. The taxation would happen when they realise the profit.

Since I'm posting about that detail anyway I might as well offer my unsolicited opinion on the recent events. I actually cannot believe that people are letting them get away with this still.

(And by "getting away with" I mean that it is quite clear they are not transparent. If I understand correctly, they are talking about seeking financing to build more machines with a new CM. That sounds like a ponzi scheme to me. The preorder money is severely depleted due to salaries, trade shows, etc. and they now need to solicit more funding to actually deliver what you already paid for.
I have to question whether that is even legal at this point.)

-4
#5524 2 years ago
Quoted from wcbrandes:

There is no one out there willing to pay the whole 8500 dollars, lets not be stupid. It just happened to go to the guy with the loudest voice and a straight line to the people who control the license and guess what..... he didn't even have his machine for sale. Good work Rarehero I tip my hat to your brilliant play. Thanks Barry for paying out the select ONE you choose to pay with my money and every one elses. Let me guess someone wanted a spot and you just happened to choose Rarehero and sent a personal wire to his account. This one stinks to high heaven and wires don't lie, however it's proven DP does.

A lot of accusations/speculations here, or do you have any proof?

#5525 2 years ago

Maybe the spot sold so fast because it's a low number finished game? It would benefit ARA to reach an agreement before the new quote comes in.

17
#5526 2 years ago

Not speculation. Rarehero never had for sale wanted refund like everyone else that's asked threatened to phone licensee again. Barry sent Wire for full refund. Again let me guess someone bought his particular spot without contacting Rarehero. When are you people gonna learn. You think these guys don't lie? You think they had a live / dead question period so no one could pin them with real questions. Nothing answered about money. Nothing answered that will tell anyone where they really stand. Wtf this isn't rocket science.

#5527 2 years ago

The critical thing required is transparency over DP's current financial position which they haven't answered.

They took X money for x machines. They made and shipped y machines for Y money.

my fear is they used X money to complete the y machines and don't have enough left to make the x machines.

No bank is going to loan or finance a company that is going to make a loss. No CM is going to finance this project at a price they make no money on. We have one CM already struggling. Unless DP had margins of 80% or something then this is just one big financial fantasy.

People should be emailing DP and demanding they confirm their current liquidity situation, then you can call DP good guys, otherwise this is Jpop all over again.

Regards,
Neil.

#5528 2 years ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

Maybe the spot sold so fast because it's a low number finished game? It would benefit ARA to reach an agreement before the new quote comes in.

Grow up. Who's paying full price without negotiating with seller. Why did Barry send the wire. Get numbers from Wire and stop giving these asshole slack. They need to be held accountable not hide behind a " live" question period that wasn't live at all. For all you know they filmed a day early edited and put only the questions they wanted to answer on.

#5529 2 years ago

He's been complaining for quite a while, why refund him now? Let's hope we may be closer to a resolution and having the finished games shipped, and the rest built with ARA or the new CM.

#5530 2 years ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

He's been complaining for quite a while, why refund him now? Let's hope we may be closer to a resolution and having the finished games shipped, and the rest built with ARA or the new CM.

I told you threatened to phone licensee again. You obviously will never get it. Send me 8500 for my spot. Your soooo sure you can sell later for big profits! Right insert excuse here

#5531 2 years ago

You believe it will fail, but you want full price? Your game isn't assembled yet, more risk on your number than Rares. I don't want any profits, just want all the games to be completed and delivered to the rightful owners.

#5532 2 years ago

yes sure less risk on his you obviously don't get it. There are others assembled that asked for refunds. Keep finding excuses and please ask exactly where the wire came from. I will be calling the licensee tomorrow as well. Oh and I guarantee the question "where did the wire come from" , wouldn't have been answered on the " live" show. Also it won't make a difference in the outcome if your machine is together or not

#5533 2 years ago

I'm just saying a working assembled game NIB has more value than a box of parts.

#5534 2 years ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

I'm just saying a working assembled game NIB has more value than a box of parts.

Neither of them is worth anything unless you can actually have either in your possession.

-1
#5535 2 years ago

? that's not the question. We're saying both do ship, a box of parts or a finished game. The assembled game should be worth more. What's your number?

13
#5536 2 years ago

Whos we're? What is your relationship with these guys? Do you know them personally because you obviously hate to look at facts. These guys are two douche bags, proven to lie. They do what they want with other peoples money and in no way have ever listened nor provided real financial information to anyone with their hard earned money entrusted to them. You continue to provide every excuse in the book for them and I will continue to ignore those excuses. The licensee needs to know about these douche bags and if rarehero isn't here anymore to do this I have no issues doing it myself.

-2
#5537 2 years ago

I'm 77...In it like you, that's all. I'm just looking at what's there, like you. ARA had a contract to deliver, and they didn't that's a fact. DP is working to get us our games with a new CM.
A great CM delivers 10% under budget and timeline. A good CM delivers 10% over. ARA was so far off the timeline and budget, it's ridiculous - not even close. ARA quoted the game, not DP. Why aren't you going after ARA? We all signed with ARA when DP signed with ARA...
It's unfortunate but it happens, and it will be resolved.
From what I understand CM#1 can be held accountable in court for anything over the original contract DP will have to pay CM#2, and possibly more.

11
#5538 2 years ago

Whatever happened to investing your own freakin money in a business? Biggest problem with the crowdfunding model IMO, is the guys that run it have little or no "skin in the game". Which is why they couldn't give a f*ck if it's completed now, in 2 years or ever.

#5539 2 years ago

The other major problem is the crowd funders are effectively investors, but have none of the typical rights or upside of an investor. An investor would normally expect a certain level of transparency and get to see the current financials of the company they've invested in. In this case DP are giving their "investors" the finger and not displaying any transparency at all.

#5540 2 years ago

I think it is safe to say that the webinar has not helped the situation. While I thought it was great clearly the temperature here has gone up a few degrees.

#5541 2 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

They can't do it. Don't have the skills.

At least they didn't make an exit plan last September and begin a Hydrofoil company.

#5542 2 years ago
Quoted from Foxis:

I agree with the sentiment of your post, but *if* they know what they are doing you are wrong about taxation. The funds paid by preorder customer should have been marked as the short term debt that they are, as such they would not be profit and therefor not taxed. The taxation would happen when they realise the profit.

Not sure how it works there, but here - if you pay yourself a salary, in general you will be paying taxes of some form.

#5543 2 years ago
Quoted from Foxis:

I agree with the sentiment of your post, but *if* they know what they are doing you are wrong about taxation. The funds paid by preorder customer should have been marked as the short term debt that they are, as such they would not be profit and therefor not taxed. The taxation would happen when they realise the profit.

I don't think it's safe to assume that a Dutch company operates in the same fashion as a C corp in the USA.

#5544 2 years ago
Quoted from knockerlover:

I don't think it's safe to assume that a Dutch company operates in the same fashion as a C corp in the USA.

Or an S Corporation.

#5545 2 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

At least they didn't make an exit plan last September and begin a Hydrofoil company.

I'm amazed how everyone is wishing Mr. Hydrofoil well. Surprised those he screwed over don't wish him engine trouble or a leaky hull.....

#5546 2 years ago

^^^ I don't get this reference?

#5547 2 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

^^^ I don't get this reference?

Andrew Heighway

#5548 2 years ago

K brings up a good point.. even now some people are still gushing over Andrew after he had to be removed from company DP gets no slack at all. What's the difference? Andrew is more personable? More willing to lie with '2 more weeks' for two years which "feels" better than the ones DP has done.

More a statement on psychology I guess.

#5549 2 years ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

K brings up a good point.. even now people are gushing over Andrew after he had to be removed from company DP gets no slack at all. What's the difference? Andrew is more personable? More willing to lie with '2 more weeks' for two years which "feels" better than the ones DP has done. It's all the same thing, one is sugar coated. I guess that's why you sugar coat things

errrr did you see eternallife's posts Tom? These guys are not going grey like Andrew and still come across cocky as hell and refuse to answer any "real" financial questions. No slack should be given to anyone pulling a salary from our hard earned money and refusing to answer the real questions.

#5550 2 years ago
Quoted from knockerlover:

I don't think it's safe to assume that a Dutch company operates in the same fashion as a C corp in the USA.

My reference is both US and Swedish corporate taxation. I think it's safe to assume that dutch corporations are not taxed until they report profit. The preorder revenue should not have been treated as profit, so I would be very surprised if it was taxed.

However, what DP actually did with the funds and how they were treated in the bookkeeping is another matter entirely.

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