(Topic ID: 115360)

The Big Lebowski Preorder Club (Members Only)


By Nilroc

4 years ago



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#5451 2 years ago
Quoted from Rensh:

What would you need more? A week upfront time and date is mentioned. On Monday you will get a mail with link, what would be the use of getting it earlier? Wanna print it out, frame it and look at it for two days ??

Come on Rensh. This webinar shouldn't be treated like a meeting between the White House and Russia. There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to know the details of the call beforehand. I may be commuting in the car at 9:00am Pacific Time, so it's helpful to know dial-in or weblink instructions ahead of time so that I can plan accordingly. It's pretty much expected (standard).

15
#5452 2 years ago
Quoted from MrBally:

Expect a delay (just a week or two) here and there.....

"There is a board issue with our phones."

#5453 2 years ago
Quoted from Rensh:

What would you need more? A week upfront time and date is mentioned. On Monday you will get a mail with link, what would be the use of getting it earlier? Wanna print it out, frame it and look at it for two days ??

Gee Rensh,
Just asked a simple question. Very nice response. Who peed in your Corn Flakes?

#5454 2 years ago
Quoted from Rensh:

What would you need more? A week upfront time and date is mentioned. On Monday you will get a mail with link, what would be the use of getting it earlier? Wanna print it out, frame it and look at it for two days ??

I know when I schedule meetings, I normally withhold the dial in or conference room information until the last minute. Keeps the attendees on their toes!!! Leads to the best meetings, and everyone always shows up!

If I actually did that people would rightly say that I don't know my ass from a hole in the ground.

14
#5455 2 years ago
Quoted from Biv:

what's the problem? 2x 8500$ = 15k

I like that math!

#5456 2 years ago
Quoted from Toucanf16:

I like that math!

It all depends on what Base Numbering System is being used.

#5457 2 years ago
Quoted from foxtj24:

It has been 3 years since most of us have paid in full. Credit card protection is gone. The rumor is ARA has not been paid at all. If we dealt with them directly that would mean paying twice. We cannot let DP get away with that. They need to be held accountable.

Totally agree that DP must be held accountable but that accountability is likely that they go bust. The problem is the lack of facts. Facts are needed. Has anyone contacted ARA thats a buyer? Can we get them on a webcast? If I knew I could pay them the extra $1000 and know I'd get my machine after shelling out $5K+++ then I'd do it. If ARA haven't been paid then I feel really bad for you all; It will be just a matter of time before DP go bust, then ARA can do what they like.

Quoted from flynnibus:

Because there is more at stake for both sides than balance due on a few pieces.

From a principals point of view I agree, but from a "I want my machine" - is there really? Surely its about getting hold of the machine that you paid for; DP are the "dunsel" of pinball right now

Neil.

#5458 2 years ago
Quoted from NeilMcRae:

Totally agree that DP must be held accountable but that accountability is likely that they go bust. The problem is the lack of facts. Facts are needed. Has anyone contacted ARA thats a buyer? Can we get them on a webcast? If I knew I could pay them the extra $1000 and know I'd get my machine after shelling out $5K+++ then I'd do it. If ARA haven't been paid then I feel really bad for you all; It will be just a matter of time before DP go bust, then ARA can do what they like.

Neil.

5k? The cheapest you could get in for was 8500. Now the price is 10,000

#5460 2 years ago
Quoted from NeilMcRae:

Has anyone contacted ARA thats a buyer? Can we get them on a webcast? If I knew I could pay them the extra $1000 and know I'd get my machine after shelling out $5K+++ then I'd do it. If ARA haven't been paid then I feel really bad for you all; It will be just a matter of time before DP go bust, then ARA can do what they like.

From a principals point of view I agree, but from a "I want my machine" - is there really? Surely its about getting hold of the machine that you paid for; DP are the "dunsel" of pinball right now
Neil.

This ignores everything that has been brought up ad nausea in this thread.

- The licensing
- The ongoing dispute between the parties
- The reality that DP may owe far more than just the additional 1k per unit price price increase asked for
- The reality that DP may owe for far more expenses than just the individual machines.. so the machines are leverage in that dispute

I know you'd like to say 'well can't I just pay the difference and get what I am owed?' - it's a simple idea but not reality at all.

You are not ARA's customer. ARA has no relationship with you at all - the very fact ARA people talked to people outside DP was a serious breach of professional conduct (let alone any possible legalities) and probably a critical piece to the other manager being fired.

#5461 2 years ago

This is a reminder for today’s live session.
Today, June 19, we will organize a Dutch Pinball Live session. We will explain the current situation about the production of The Big Lebowski™ Pinball and we will answer questions from you, our Early Achievers. So if you have questions for us that you would like us to explain in the DP Live session, please send it to live@dutchpinball.com. We will begin the DP Live session at 18:00 Amsterdam time CEST (6PM).
The live session can be viewed on our website: www.dutchpinball.com/livestream

Click here to see ‘our time’: https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/netherlands/amsterdam
PS1: No worries if you can’t join the live session. We will record the session and will send you a link later.
PS2: Asking questions for DP Live session is for Early Achievers only.

Kind regards,
Barry & Jaap

#5462 2 years ago

One thing that frustrates me (as if its only 1) is that, if we're starting over, and my machine has not yet been manufactured or now hasn't even started...why can't I get a refund? I think I know the answer, and that's what scares me most.

#5463 2 years ago

Probably not smart to stream test video an hour before with outlook open and people's email addresses showing

#5464 2 years ago

Standing by

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#5465 2 years ago

oh boy ... 86 questions.

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#5467 2 years ago

If they sue ARA, they might not win, as ARA might file for bankruptcy (as I understand, Nivoge wanted to use DP to inject money in ARA, they might also just let it blow)...

#5468 2 years ago

So far, it sounds like they are planning on going with another manufacturer and waiting on a project quote from them.

It also sounds like they are abandoning BOP anniversary edition until at least after TBL is done.

#5469 2 years ago

Sure looks like they are out of money.

#5470 2 years ago
Quoted from foxtj24:

Sure looks like they are out of money.

How so? ARA was providing all the financing.

#5471 2 years ago
Quoted from foxtj24:

Sure looks like they are out of money.

They pretty much straight-up said they can't afford to refund 60 people or else they'd be broke. They're going to put all their eggs in one basket with their new manufacturer.

Later, they said they'd look into taking money from private investors if they "need it". Sounds to me like they need it!

#5472 2 years ago
Quoted from mgpasman:

If they sue ARA, they might not win, as ARA might file for bankruptcy (as I understand, Nivoge wanted to use DP to inject money in ARA, they might also just let it blow)...

well if they went bankrupt... then at least the parts and games would be up for liquidation

#5473 2 years ago

They could also force ARA to just release the already built ones for the agreed price, using this short procedure.

#5474 2 years ago
Quoted from titanpenguin:

How so? ARA was providing all the financing.

Why did they need financing if we all paid 8500 already? If ARA has not been paid, Where is the money we all paid already?

#5476 2 years ago
Quoted from mgpasman:

They could also force ARA to just release the already built ones for the agreed price, using this short procedure.

but then abandon the ability to file suit with them later on. Not a good option.

#5477 2 years ago

Well... it sounds like the plan is

- please wait till we flush out the next contractor manufacturer...
- we need to arrange financing for the next build...
- we have no plan to recover the ARA mess except to hold legal action as a future card to play...
- we can't refund everyone as we want to use that nest egg to keep the bigger project going
- they claim to have all they need to build TBL with someone else

So pretty much it boils down to... can people wait another 4-6months to see if this next attempt gets funded and works.. or will people storm the gates and demand their money back through legal means.

It's a game of 'wait... with all risk' or blow it up now and spend money to get some money.

#5478 2 years ago

Bummer, stream just went down.

#5479 2 years ago

Link to full video here:

Edit: Huh, they took it down, but I can still watch it in my open tab. Strange.

#5480 2 years ago

What they didn't address is..
Holding current funds to float their business shouldn't be needed to get the financing to build TBL if they are going for financing anyways. If the bankers are going to buy into the company and project... they shouldn't need the nest egg of preorder money to convince them of the viability of the project. I think that part is a bit seedy.

Don't hold your customers hostage to cover for your mistakes with your suppliers/contractors. Their mistakes should be covered by them - not holding customers hostage. They legally owe people refunds if requested. That could be the downfall of this whole thing.

#5481 2 years ago

I missed today's live session (job got in the way, especially when trying to make up for the money you lost with DP), but it looks like I didn't miss anything.

#5482 2 years ago

Were we on the same stream?? They are going forward with a new CM to deliver TBL's. The second title has been put on hold to focus on finishing the first run of TBL. They are waiting on quotes, which will take a few weeks. DP has all documentation and plans for building TBL which we own, not ARA as Barry and Jaap wrote all the assembly instructions.
Some of the pre order money was spent to get us this far in IT, development, materials - refunds can't happen for everyone so no one can be refunded.
ARA has a lot invested in materials/finished games which they can never sell. ARA breached the original contract with DP by not delivering finished games on time or on budget. Suing ARA also may happen down the road. Suing is a long process, if we sue we would have to wait longer for a refund/game.

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#5483 2 years ago
Quoted from mgpasman:

If they sue ARA, they might not win, as ARA might file for bankruptcy (as I understand, Nivoge wanted to use DP to inject money in ARA, they might also just let it blow)...

This is not how I understood Jaap's words. Pls note that approx 100 people are working with ARA and you just dont file bankruptcy because otherwise you need to cough up like 500-1000K ? Very costly way to avoid payment ....

#5484 2 years ago
Quoted from Rensh:

This is not how I understood Jaap's words. Pls note that approx 100 people are working with ARA and you just dont file bankruptcy because otherwise you need to cough up like 500-1000K ? Very costly way to avoid payment ....

They did not say that, it was my interpretation of what could happen. Since Nivoge mentioned Ara needed money anyway, this might tip them over the edge.

#5485 2 years ago

It wouldn't surprise me if ARA suddenly decided to honor the original contract once DP has a new CM willing to finish TBL. It would be less costly than a lawsuit/scrapping all the games and materials.

#5486 2 years ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

It wouldn't surprise me if ARA suddenly decided to honor the original contract once DP has a new CM willing to finish TBL. It would be less costly than a lawsuit/scrapping all the games and materials.

It would also be a breach of contract.

#5487 2 years ago

For those who missed it, link is expected to be provided tomorrow so you can see it than.

#5488 2 years ago

Very good podcast Jaap, there was a lot of topics to cover and he was very professional in his presentation of the facts. I learned;

1) The plan was always for ARA to self-fund production, which is why DP didn't have to cover most of the inventory buildup or manufacturing until games shipped. This also explains why ARA pushed so hard for Nivoge to takeover 51% ownership. I am mostly inclined to believe DP's account of things and statements they have been making over the past six months. It make some sense now. Going after ARA will only be a financial maneuver by DP and won't get the games built faster. ARA is written off being any part of the solution. Hostage games should be considered as lost forever.

2) However, once an estimated cost for production is received, financing options will be explored. I think this step was glossed over and not given enough attention. Jaap mentioned that the new contract manufacturer will give them a response on a self-funding model too, but alluded to it being more likely that crowd sourcing, go-fund-me, bank loan or other private funding methods will be sought. He is talking about developing a strong business plan & manufacturing plan to attract funding. To me this indicates it will many more years before the game is really out in numbers. For that reason, I think step #1 of the business plan ought to be refund EA's and current buyers 100%. Get them out of the preorder model and go forward with a fresh slate.

3) Already released software is considered complete except for wizard mode, players shouldn't expect much change. This was most disappointing part to me, because a lot of great ideas for code refinement have been mentioned and everyone reviewing this game says it needs more polish. I believe this position will change once games were going out, but it will require a shift in current thinking. A code jockey will would need to be brought on board, better yet, DP should release their code as open source and allow p-roc'ers a chance to - Make TBL Great Again.

#5489 2 years ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

I think step #1 of the business plan ought to be refund EA's and current buyers 100%. Get them out of the preorder model and go forward with a fresh slate.

That would be ideal, but per some of the comments above it sounds like DP has stated they do not have the money to refund everyone 100%. And it's hard to imagine a lender would be keen on giving them money to pay off preexisting debts, vs. build and ship machines (which would get them to profitability faster, even if the first 150 games go to cover fully-paid preorders).

#5490 2 years ago

Let's get this thing built! It ain't over...

#5491 2 years ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

That would be ideal, but per some of the comments above it sounds like DP has stated they do not have the money to refund everyone 100%. And it's hard to imagine a lender would be keen on giving them money to pay off preexisting debts, vs. build and ship machines (which would get them to profitability faster, even if the first 150 games go to cover fully-paid preorders).

I don't know, this sounds eerily familiar to Heighway's attracting investors. New people injecting new capital - and if the plan is based on borrowing enough to refund existing buyers their money, buy parts, setup factory for manufacturing and early production costs, they will have a lot more people and potential customers pulling for them.

#5492 2 years ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

I don't know, this sounds eerily familiar to Heighway's attracting investors. New people injecting new capital - and if the plan is based on borrowing enough to refund existing buyers their money, buy parts, setup factory for manufacturing and early production costs, they will have a lot more people and potential customers pulling for them.

Maybe I missed it but did Heighway's new investors promise to refund anyone that asks? I saw they refunded one guy but lots of others are still complaining of radio-silence.

Regardless, if DP can pull this off that's be great. It just seems questionable to me that they'd be able to find new funding, even without budgeting an extra million or two up front to pay off existing debt to the pre-order folks.

#5493 2 years ago

for those that have paid in full I can't help but thinking it's bad news. So they find another CM (because there are hundreds cm's geared to do Pinball!) who's paying for the machines to be built? If DP don't have the money to refund then they don't have the money to pay for new machines to be made.

Neil.

#5494 2 years ago
Quoted from EternalLife:

Were we on the same stream?? They are going forward with a new CM to deliver TBL's. The second title has been put on hold to focus on finishing the first run of TBL. They are waiting on quotes, which will take a few weeks. DP has all documentation and plans for building TBL which we own, not ARA as Barry and Jaap wrote all the assembly instructions.
Some of the pre order money was spent to get us this far in IT, development, materials - refunds can't happen for everyone so no one can be refunded.
ARA has a lot invested in materials/finished games which they can never sell. ARA breached the original contract with DP by not delivering finished games on time or on budget. Suing ARA also may happen down the road. Suing is a long process, if we sue we would have to wait longer for a refund/game.

EternalLife - Your summary was an accurate reflection of the livestream i watched - well done. DP seems sincere in its approach - i can only hope they are successful. I was relieved, and surprised, that ARA pre-funded as much as they did. This would seem to put them in a position of less leverage. ai would hope they are smart enough to sell the games and parts they have to DP and their new CM as it has little value holding on to it.

I am sure DP is aware of this point and perhaps it will accelerate the new CM. Working with ARA at this point seems to be a train that has left the station!

As #147 I am not happy with the whole situation, at least DP seems to be taking reasonable actions to make this game happen. Good luck DP and all EA's!!!

#5495 2 years ago

I missed the broadcast and don't really care to watch it. Sounds like DP only addressed those questions that they wanted to address.

Did they comment on whether ARA might (or has) sued them? If they choose to abandon their project with ARA, without suing them or formally alleging breach in some manner, that a lawsuit would certainly come from ARA/Nivoge direction.

#5496 2 years ago
Quoted from Hjbondar:

I was relieved, and surprised, that ARA pre-funded as much as they did. This would seem to put them in a position of less leverage.

I had the opposite reaction. If DP has not paid ARA very much, and they are still short on money, and they have 190 EA's fully paid - 50ish delivered, then they math starts not working. 140ish fully paid games at $8500 is a lot of cabbage - about 1.2m bucks. Not sure what the net is on that figure, but even if you assumed 20%, that is only $240k.

You see where I am going here. If they are out of or short on money, I don't think they have enough to build their way out of their hole.

I am severely disappointed that they did not reveal more details of their financial position. They are dancing all around it, but the questions will not be answered until that is revealed. They can talk all day if they want.

#5497 2 years ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

3) Already released software is considered complete except for wizard mode, players shouldn't expect much change much. This was most disappointing part to me, because a lot of great ideas for code refinement have been mentioned and everyone reviewing this game says it needs more polish. I believe this position will change once games were going out, but it will require a shift in current thinking. A software writer would need to be brought onboard, but better yet, would be for DP to release their code as open source and allow p-roc'ers a chance to - Make TBL Great Again.

Bummed to hear this as well, while the code is decent I believe SO much more coud be done to bring some of these modes to life. Especially the character multiballs, all bland and the same. Add some variation to them. The bowling modes need some different things as well, they have full bowling and hit roving pin modes, maybe add 7-10 split mode, acid trip mode where totally randomized to hit a pin or something, many more options to vary this up some. I could go on and on, if I knew how to code I could make this game amazing. Ok I couldn't code ever in my life but I have a shit ton of ideas for this game!

But I guess first things first, lets hope the games get made and delivered to all the poor souls waiting..........

#5498 2 years ago

Are they confident that this new CM is going to come back with a bid for the project that fits within their current financial metrics??

The problem I see here on top of initial start-up logistics, tooling and timing is the fact that the original deal with ARA was made what...3+ years ago? In that time inflation has occurred, material costs / shipping costs have escalated, exchange rates have shifted.

It is without question that the price per unit will indefinitely go up compared to the initial deal they made with ARA....so aren't we back to square one? No matter how this plays out DP is going to be paying more per unit for manufacturing than their initial business plan allowed.

How does that get reconciled?

The only way to cut costs is to cut scope...in this case it would require cheaper materials, how else are you going to cut $$$ out of a project that is so hands-on labor intensive? Are we looking at cheaper cabinets? translite in lieu of glass, cheaper speakers, cheaper PC's, stripped out features? Something has got to give to make this work.

#5499 2 years ago

If you're an early achiever and you want to recoup some of your losses, I'll buy your spot (preferably under #100) at a fair price given the current state of things.

#5500 2 years ago

Yeah I don't see how moving to a new manufacturer works. From the sounds of it, ARA was losing their shirt on TBL .. so.. what does that say about a different CMs cost.. either they estimate it correctly and more $$ or they underbid it and then problems later. . This whole thing blows.. I know I am in the fortunate few but have stopped playing mine cause of bad feelings about the whole ordeal. I know I know.. "at least I got mine".. still sucks.

I've started making my own head to head game out in my garage.. seems like a better way to experience the hobby for me than all this pre order shenanigans.

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