And I haven't even been drinking.....

Questions for DP:
1) Are you really planning to do BoP 3.0?

2) Let's say you pull through and get games back on the line again. How do you plan to move forward as a company? How will you support your customers who have issues with their game? Do existing Achievers get some sort of an extended warranty due to your "absence" over the past year?

3) Is the code for TBL really 100%?

4) Why should we trust you?

I will have to disagree here Ren. Plenty of the "nonsense" is coming directly from EA's, those that have laid down deposits, and good dudes that have been fervent supporters and even DP apologists.

I've owned several companies and would have LOVED to have a forum where my clients thoughts - good or bad - were freely expressed for me to read..

entrepreneur and product developer/manager here.. can confirm, that would be amazing.

A good question might be How much money have you paid to ARA already (if any) and how much is still owed? We are all assuming ARA are the bad guys here. The other side of the story is DP never paid their bills, that is why productions stopped.

For me all those in on the first 300 pcs are achievers and have the right to ask (tough) questions.

"We?" You buy somebody's spot?

First two questions:

Where's the balance of TBL machines?

Where's the fu@king money Lebowski?

Well that's the crux of the problem... dispute over what the bill IS.

Requiring a portion of the payment to help fund the supply chain needs.. or requiring payment upon completion or any range inbetween are possible. Even disclosing what the payment schedule was to be would help people get a footing for what is going on. That would be a legit question that would help people understand when DP's big money outlies were... even if they won't disclose what their assets or ability to fund are.

But to your theoretical of 'they just didn't pay' do you really think DP would still be prolonging this if the answer was just 'we don't have any money' to pay what was originally owed for the next 10-20 games? Then there would really be nothing to move forward with.. and they'd just declare bankruptcy and fold. The theory of just running out of money period doesn't gel with everything that has happened since the dispute started.

It would only make sense if DP thought they could get ARA to keep cranking on credit until they got to the next round of buyers who had to send in money.. and that credit would have had to be for a significant portion of the run. That seems... hard to believe.

TBL #2 was sold a few months ago in The Netherlands for 9995 euro's

Id ask why they thought is was acceptable to lie about circuit boards, delivery dates, production schedules, and more. Also, why they think we will believe any more of their bullshit.

Yes see earlier, in with another friend on 8 (eight) spots.

C3407777-A8CD-46CA-A9CA-08E7C77C8D8B-2958-0000018001DCE9A9 (resized).jpeg

ok so just shy of $12000 USD....that sounds a bit more reasonable and realistic....these 18k-25k for sale adds are super crazy in a speculative market like this....at least with Magic Girl those guys know what they are getting...1 of 21(ish) and no chance for any more machines, etc....with Lebowski its way too big a gamble to pay insane prices...$11k-12k though....I might be on board there...anyone have one and want to talk about that price range please PM me.

Oh. Didn't realize CoinTaker had taken early achiever money.

I have #59 that I'd consider selling for close to that range. As buyer, you'll need to coordinate shipping with ARA though.

But seriously, I'm betting that few actual current TBL owners will be willing to let theirs go for $11 - 12K right now given its potential future rarity and resultant higher value.

They didn't. Read the back a few pages then pull your tape measure out big guy. If you don't want another advocate on your side piss off.

DP may not be actively following this thread or Pinside. But, I would guess they have a pretty damn good pulse on the Pinside happenings courtesy of Mr. Rensh. He apparently is the acting unofficial spokesman for DP and doesn't miss a second of conversation here. DP knows what's happening on Pinside weather they read it here or not. And if it's not coming from Rensh, it's coming from someone else or a fake account.

Brian

on the flip side, an owner today could take my 11k now....or if things work out and all games get shipped and the market is softer since 300+ are on the market than they can only sell for 9k(ish)...so taking my 11k(ish) now is the right move....this is why the whole thing is such a dumb gamble with the current DP situation. with any other RARE high end pin all of the details are known...Magic Girl, Big Bang Bar, KingPin...whatever...theres no more risk of circumstantial changes...what is...is.....with TBL, it could all change at a moments notice which is why the crazy sales price marketplace ads are stupid...and people trying to sell a "spot" in line for a prepaid achiever is a big risk...I mean really, how much money are any one of us willing to just flush down a toilet for a gamble....an 8.5k paid in full achiever spot at this moment is in my opinion worth about $2500 cash. circumstances look TERRIBLE...all signs point to total loss. if this all works out miraculously then ok, you've got a game worth 8500+...if it stays the course...its worth ZERO. the paid in full spots are not worth anywhere near the actual paid value at this point given what we all know...but I guess it could change Monday...if DP are actually honest and forthcoming...

If a full achiever spot is worth so little in your estimation, then likewise, I would think games in hand should be worth close to BBB or MG values given how good the game is and how rare it is likely to become.

Edit: I have no horse in this race but have friends who do.

So you undervalue EA's spots because of the low chance that more games are finished and also undervalue the games people have in hand because of the high chance of more games being finished? Got it.

If all 300 games get finished, the value will almost certainly be higher than $9k. Many people (me) are willing to pay $10k for one and 300 is still a rare game and it may take a slight dip in value initially but will then climb, climb, climb.

I think an in-hand game is worth around $15k right now, give or take $1000. An EA spot on a game in the 50s or so and likely completed and sitting at ARA is probably worth around $7k, maybe $8k. It seems pretty likely that they will get their games but the probable extended wait and possibility of never getting the game lowers the value and the higher the number, the lower it gets as we don't know exactly how many are finished; 40 at the most or 10 at the least. EA spots above 80-90 are worth very little at this point, probably $2k-$4k range, and are dropping by the day as far as I can tell.

This is all based on what I'd be willing to pay as a guy with deep pockets and a strong desire to have this game, but I also have a lot of patience.

If someone wants to sell their in-hand TBL for $14,500, PM me.

Two in Seattle just sold within the last week.
25k nib
20k new out of box (pending)

Kind of crazy for a game without a manual

Shh, Dkjimbo's trying to scoop one up for $11k and you're killing his game.

they are going for that money because the buyers know that no more are hitting the streets.

Sorry. Must have misread your post.

Or perhaps they just recognize a REALLY great game and don't want to wait.

Thanks as always for the positive input NeilMcRae.

the game was sold very fast, so I think the seller could ask more than that...

All the negativity I've had lately, but gotta say, was able to play our local on location machine again last night and it's so damn good. Really a great pin. Love the vulgar callouts especially, the warmth of the machine, lighting, how it feels, oozes solid retro goodness in the right ways. C'mon DP, get these fuggin machines made!

Having some fun with her as well today at burningmans. It really is one of the best games ever made. Let's get her done DP!!

IMG_2049 (resized).JPG

Ask him to sell me that Sopranos......

It really is an awesome game I hope they work it out, quite depressing to see all the drama with these newer companies.

I think it's for sale or about to be.

Very fitting, Sopranos, give me the fucking money

"day job"

I will give you $10 more than bemmet for Sopranos...

What about asking the questions on the Dutch Pinball forum? I know when people used to ask technical questions on the Bride 2.0 thread, they'd usually refer them to the Dutch Pinball forum (which was great for the technical info).

My questions just emailed to Barry and Jaap for their consideration in responding to in next Monday's session (FWIW):

Game Manufacturing
1. How many total TBL games have been built by ARA to date?
2. How many TBL games are currently ready to ship, but are being held by ARA?
3. At a minimum, what has to happen in order for the existing TBL games being held by ARA to be shipped?
4. How does DP realistically propose to build TBL games through a different manufacturer?
5. What is DP’s proposed realistic timeline for building TBL games through a different manufacturer?
6. If DP doesn’t reach an agreement with ARA/Nivoge and ceases to exist, can ARA/Nivoge sell the TBL games and parts that they currently possess?
7. Does DP still propose to proceed with producing a BOP V3.0 game?
8. Does DP plan to continue to produce and provide code upgrades for TBL games?

DP and ARA/Nivoge Business Relationship
9. What are the details of DP’s dispute with ARA?
10. What are the details of ARA’s dispute with DP as you understand them?
11. How much responsibility is DP accepting for its current dispute with ARA?
12. What is DP’s current offer to ARA/Nivoge?
13. What is ARA/Nivoge’s current offer to DP?
14. What is the current status of discussions between DP and ARA/Nivoge?
15. How optimistic are you that an agreement with ARA/Nivoge that results in them manufacturing the remaining TBL Games, can be achieved this year? Ever?
16. Why can’t ARA/Nivoge and DP reach an agreement in which all remaining TBL games are guaranteed to be built and shipped even if ARA/Nivoge has majority ownership?
17. Is DP considering use of an independent third party to resolve their disagreement with ARA/Nivoge?
18. Is DP willing to allow ARA to provide its perspective regarding TBL games production to DP’s customers?
19. If ARA is in the wrong, than why doesn’t DP proceed with legal action against them?

DP’s Financial Health
20. What is the financial status (cash value) of DP?
21. What business assets does DP have?
22. Approximately what percentage of Barry and Jaap’s personal income has DP provided since Pinball Expo 2014?
23. Do Barry and Jaap have full-time income producing jobs outside of DP?
24. Does DP currently have any paid employees?
25. If so, how full-time and how many part-time?
26. Are there any other investors or business partners currently within DP?
27. Is DP considering bringing in new investor(s)?

Future Options
28. What other viable options if any, does DP feel will enable TBL customers to receive their games?
29. What does DP propose that its TBL game customers do to best help resolve the current situation?
30. What guarantee(s) do “Early Achievers” have from DP that they are acting in good faith given that DP has admittedly lied to them in the past?

This is so appropriate for the entire scenario.

I think that about covers it. I might add in a question along the lines of "Has ARA filed any notice/letters to DP?" Maybe not worded correctly, but if DP is violating payments terms, ARA may not be forever patient. They might start pursuing their rights under the contract.

why can't DP arrange for the names of the people who have bought machines (and paid up to DP fully) to be given to ARA and then let ARA deal with the buyers directly so that if you want to pay the extra to get your machine directly to ARA you can? Also allow ARA to sell parts to the many machines that are broken right now.

how long has this farce being going on for?! Since before April!!

Everyday longer is a day that your credit card company reduces or your legal rights reduces by agreeing to the madness that DP are percolating here.

Cheers.
Neil.

c37bf4e7cb4a78a5b93b38d45334256c (resized).png

Expect a delay (just a week or two) here and there.....

I bet they want to keep it as un viewed and un attended as possible.

I would like to watch as I am trying to lose weight so keep us posted.

They are annouckng that Andrew from HP is joining them

Neil

Good, we'll get an extra person now teaching us how to run a company into the ground.

It has been 3 years since most of us have paid in full. Credit card protection is gone. The rumor is ARA has not been paid at all. If we dealt with them directly that would mean paying twice. We cannot let DP get away with that. They need to be held accountable.

What would you need more? A week upfront time and date is mentioned. On Monday you will get a mail with link, what would be the use of getting it earlier? Wanna print it out, frame it and look at it for two days ??

what's the problem? 2x 8500$ = 15k and you can sell it NIB on ebay for 25 grand....you're a rich man!

Because there is more at stake for both sides than balance due on a few pieces.