I have to say, I love all this positive creativity and problem solving!

VAT is paid by those who have it domestically. US buyers typically would not be charged VAT on goods exported to the US. Countries with the import duties or domestic tax would pay it.

That will amount to nothing. Half these guys posting on here should have tried this hard when they were in school. Maybe they'd have a few more machines by now.

Ever hear of the Seattle Seven?

That was me ... and six other guys.

You can also get by with good looks and a big penis.

All European consumer buyers paid incl VAT. VAT is paid to the tax department by DP.

Suppose a dealer bought from Italy machines with DP and they have a valid Tax number than DP doesn't charge VAT but the dealer in Italy charges it to his buyer.

Had any existing TBL changed hands since delivery to the original owner? Does anyone believe that these games listed at 18k-25k are actual market value? At what point does the market correct itself? At the conclusion of the ARA drama? Either there are never going to be any other games built or there will be another 250+\- built and in the market - then what is the price? Best case all buyers get their games for 8500-10k NIB and then what? Prices instantly double? I just don't get the logic of the buyers looking to double their money but the fact that no one is biting proves my point I guess. That said - anyone with a game in hand that wants to sell for for 10k please PM me.

well.. I'm half way there.

By the way, it's gonna be a twitch session apparently. Looking forward to it.

IMG_2301 (resized).PNG

I know of two who exchanged hands within NL. Don't know pricing

June 19th's plan is a good start...

I don't think I can join, so someone please ask..."where's the MUUNNYY LEBOWSKI?!!!"

What's not to get? It's very much up in the air whether more TBLs get made. If they don't, then this is a super-limited edition game (with a still-beloved theme). BBB sells for $15k-$20k and there are far more of those than of TBL at the moment, so it's not exactly surprising that TBL owners would be asking in that price range ("double their money" doesn't enter into it, they're asking what they think the market will bear). Of course if the best-case scenario comes to pass and another 250 (or more) are made, prices on used TBL should come down significantly. But that's still a big if.

That said, if you can find a TBL for $10k I'll be the first to congratulate you.

wow.. get ready for a shit show. I wish they used a real platform made for moderated events. Heck, you can make registration required, use moderators, record, making legit Q&A in the chat, etc. Some of us work for the biggest conferencing companies in the world..

I agree. Perhaps Jack Danger is hosting it.

When I heard they were doing a webinar, I started to get the feeling that maybe.. just maybe they hired a professional PR/marketing company to help them out of this mess. Then I read on twitch and that idea immediately went into the toilet.

Where+is+the+money+lebowski+_fdae9630d59a54b231f49420f7fbfd76 (resized).jpg

Man, some of you guys really are impossible to deal with. Can tell you guys DP is not following Pinside and can't blame them. It is never good and the negativity can be overwhelming

Complaint: They are not telling anything. So they start a weekly newsletter.

We don't like what they are telling us. Need more info. So they propose a direct kind of chat session.

And now you guys are starting to complain on the platform they are using ??

Men

Chance of answering questions presented in chat - 0%
Ability to take questions live over audio - 0%
Likelihood of shitstiring by trolls in the chat - 100%
Likelihood of impersonators in the chat - 100%
Likelihood of poor A/V - 50%
Likelihood of negative impressions from the event - 100%

Please please please step up and use a real webinar platform that allows for registration, moderation, Q&A system, conference operator and audio dial-ins for handling Q&A.

https://www.webex.com/products/webinars-and-online-events.html#webex-event-center
https://www.gotomeeting.com/webinar
or cheaper alternatives

I mean when you are trying to ready the ship... pend a tiny bit of money and time to make it run SMOOTHLY and allow yourself to actually deliver on the intent... having a platform to get your message out and properly engage with your customers.

An open twitch stream (or any un-moderated experience) will end up being a trainwreck.

No, it's called EXPERIENCE and professionalism. Knowing how to actually get something done SUCCESSFULLY... or.. we can sit back and keep playing like kids in the basement and the pros will sit back and watch the fireworks.

Maybe they're just shitty?

Jaap switched the briefcase to ARA with money with his dirty undies.

Now their upset and looking for the money.

Jaap 's car already got burned down (made this up-not real)

Where's the money Jaap !
(See what I did there)

It's apparently not Twitch after double checking but another platform. It will be a seminar where achievers can ask questions via mail and they will answer them on the stream. No real live chat.

Only questions from achievers mailadresses will be answered I guess.

knockerlover flynnibus burningman watching party on the big screen here?! I'll make popcorn. Too bad it's Monday at noon EST.

"off site meeting"

"Early Achievers". Makes you feel good. Like getting a kiss after getting fucked.

By Bill Cosby.

Do you remember the periscope dialed in launch? Let's just not do that again with this OK?

To be fair, billy boy made sure people were unconscious before violating them. It seems DP is DP'ing people, eyes wide open. LOL

Still hoping everyone gets their pin..!

So, a Youtube video then? Why bother if it's not live, may as well just send out another email.

Why this forum? To have as many questions answered and also allow for follow up questions if the answer leads to another question. It's a smart way to go, keeps angry trolls out without spending extra cash for webex or other online services.

Why don't we start coming up with the questions we want answered, regardless of where we are in line and keep pushing for them to hear and respond? Here are my suggestions.

I suggest that DP consider their "early achievers" angel or seed investors in the company, and with that they should disclose the current high-level financial status through a regular investor update i.e. quarterly, this should also go to their distributors that are holding deposits. Here is an example. (Through our early achievers deposits we rasied X in early seed capital, of what Y was spent on manufacturing, Z on operational costs, and A in cash reserves, B in debt, etc.) If you need the early achievers to sign NDA's fine, this type of communication at least in the US, is extremely common. - BTW DP, I can help with this communication strategy if you want!

1.) Where is the single source of truth for information? Is it someone on pinside posting to the forums, if so who? The e-mails that are sent out? Phone calls to Jaap and translated on here? Regular webinars? How often can we expect to get these updates? (Sounds like we have a communications technology expert on the forums here too.)

2.) What are the operational risks that DP is tracking at the moment, what is their impact if realized, and how are they being mitigated? (i.e. - impending lawsuits, manufacturing challenges)

3.) Does DP have an insurance policy that can handle the potential financial legal ramifications of the previous relationships w/ ARA, etc. or how will you be planning to bear the cost of a possible suit from customers?

4.) With the new manufacturers that are providing quotes, etc. is there any specialized parts/tooling that will take "duplicative" investment to re-create? Or, is it all OEM part sourcing? (Zitt, and Timebandit have had a lot of success getting molded parts made as well as specialized boards printed, etc.)

5.) How many assembled games are currently being "held hostage" by ARA, and what is the likely outcome for those games?

If I was waiting, I'd want to know how feasible the switch to another manufacturer is.. because that's the part that doesn't add up in my head.

- how much money is left if you walk from ARA

- can you estimate (in $) how much of the design is non transferable to another manufacturer and thus have to be redesigned or repurchased? Another way, how much IP around the game is ARAs.

- do you have any firm, fixed price quotes from any alternate manufacturers yet ? Did they provide a schedule?

- the hostage games, in a scenario where you go somewhere else, what happens to those? Are they abandoned, bought out, or do those achievers have to wait for litigation to complete?

- hostage parts - same question, abandon, replace or wait for litigation?

DP is not actively following this forum so if you guys are thinking of assembling a list of questions (wise idea by the way) an early achiever must gather them and forward them to DP.

I'm sure we can make that happen.

I'd be happy to but I don't feel right given I am in the fortunate few that did get a game so not going to take up air time , but offered questions in case people want to use them.

This...

I have no idea how many "early achievers" are active on pinside, but I would speculate a considerable amount are either active or lurking. Pinside is where the core group of early achievers were collected, and now DP doesn't read Pinside anymore?

There's so much non productive negativity here; much from folks without skin in the game. Why would DP read it?

The same way any company would want to understand the climate of there current and possible future customers. Companies spend big bucks soliciting opinions of customers. DP is getting a report everyday here and they choose to not to look. This is why some would say they are "clueless."

Take the current "poll" and how DP was so out of touch with their current customers, it was a surprise to them to see so many not agree with their poll. But for most of us, we knew.

Barry's Pinside account not logged in since Dec 2016.

Not sure I blame them, the peanut gallery is all over the place. I'm sure at some point they decided that unless someone contacts them directly, it's not a real concern. That seems to be the excuse for the aprons as well.

That's fine, they have given us an avenue to contact them. Let's keep the questions coming that we want answered and submit it to them. If they don't answer them in the webinar, we will address that as needed.

emailed for June 19th:

"Hi Barry & Jaap,

Thanks for fielding questions on June 19th. I realize there are a lot of ins and outs, but as you can imagine, we're concerned dudes. Here are my questions:

Can the remaining TBL's confidently be built and the project finished and delivered under your current financial structure? In other words, do you have enough remaining funds to complete this project?

What will happen to the machines ARA has completed?

I do hope very much DP can move forward, but make no mistake I'm most concerned about seeing my TBL completed, or getting my $8500.00 investment back. It's a lot of money as I know you know, which creates stress for me. Losing that investment is a scary proposition, and would certainly bring litigation. It's not my intention to prematurely disrupt you seeing this through, I just need to know it will be seen through. Thank you for taking the time. #52

Sorry Burningman but I have to disagree in this one. So much nonsense is said in this threat coming from people with no skin in the game that following this threat without getting emotional attached and disrupted is difficult.

DP only has to report to the achievers and they can always contact Barry and Jaap via mail. Towards them DP has an obligation and only them.

And yes, you can state you are also stressed because of your money but don't you think DP is already stressed enough in regard to this situation without the name calling on a forum?

I understand the reason for webcare teams but a forum like this is beyond webcare .

Pls do note I still love you even if we have a different opinion on this one

Dutch pinball only has an obligation to the folks that are fully invested, but not to those who have pre-ordered through other means? If that is the case I'll call my distributor and tell them that I don't want the 8 TBL's that I have pre-ordered.

foxtj24, what reason do you have to downvote that?

Love you too bro, but they can't use the "I didn't know" card when all the had to do was open the book. I'm not talking about a Web care team, just for them to have a clue as to what their customers expect. If they had just glanced at pinside, they may have saved themselves some embarrasement.

As a CEO or president of a company you must take the good with the bad. If you get your feelings hurt by customers or prospective customers you have no business being in business.

As others have said, sticking your head in the sand is not a solution.

Why is it they were so surprised with their poll results? Why would they announce 3.0? We all were shaking our heads, except DP. They're wondering why everyone didn't like their poll results or 3.0 isn't selling----well, if they took a little time out of their busy schedule, they could have had a better idea of what to expect if they had just opened the book.

And...since they don't read this it doesn't matter....

When I heard Jaap pitch his book about how life is great at TPF was a slap in the face to all the guys who have not received their games. I am sure that the conversations around kitchen tables was a little different, more along the lines of, "honey, we may have lost $8500."

Boom

Boom

They don't have to agree with people.. but they shouldn't make up their own realities.

Some simple questions they should address to clarify things

1) have you started legal action against ARA?
2) What is ARA's specfic position/justification for increasing the price as you have claimed? (You won't get people buying into your team if they don't understand the dispute)
3) What is your business model, including financing, to take the project to another CM if that is your choice?
4) If the new ARA price is unsustainable, why not simply pay the ransom to release the games that are previously built and ready and then move on? (maybe they won't unless all the non-shipping parts are covered too...)
5) Is DP in possession of all the schematics, engineering assets, and BOMs necessary to build TBL? If not, what is the business plan to replace the necessary assets?
6) Does ARA claim to have any exclusivity claims on assets needed to source, build, or operate TBL?
7) What plan and assets does DP currently have to continue to function until the point in time where new cash flows will be generated?
8) If the NV group has proposed an equity swap, what was their stated ambition for ownership of a pinball design entity?
9) Does DP have financial backers or assets outside of the two principles of Jaap and Barry?

The crux of the matter is... people don't believe
1) DP has the financial assets to see this to the end
2) DP has the assets needed to 'start over' with another CM in a reasonable timeframe

That is what they need to either face, or build confidence in their plan to address.

burningman is on fire today and he's been a DP loyalist.