It does seem utterly rediculous to try to team with ANOTHER CM who has no background or experience in pinball. That's probably why ARA screwed up their bid so bad on this project and are now demanding more money - they had no idea what it takes to make a pinball machine....and whomever this new guy is will have again....NO relevant experience with pinball...what's that old saying about doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result??

Someone is going to repost the hosting details, so I fear that it will become a public forum with non-vested parties (much like this thread).

Even as someone with a deposit, I think this should be only for the people with $8500+ invested, no game and no easy option for refund. Please nobody re-post the details. I trust you EAs to represent everyone that would like to see these games finished.

Did he bow out or was he forced out. I believe the latter.

Either way, he made the choice to relinquish control rather than have the company go titsup completely.

Sorry Larry but I don't follow your logic. Being forced out by majority investors is not a choice. He may have made choices on his way out the door but those were most likely choices of self interest.

This is what I believe happened.

Logic being he allowed others to invest in his company in the first place, and allowed them to assume control, either now or at some time in the past. AFAIK Heighway was not publicly traded, so Andrew had to willingly allow the investment in the first place, which removed his control. Compare to DP, who have not accepted outside investment (yet) and are still captains of their sinking ship.

No time or desire to argue my friend. I'm off on the town to get twisted with some friends.
We can agree to disagree.

Since I can't quote Trailer Park Boys anymore, I will address your concern.

I was #19 - very early in the process. Big supporter. My game was delivered to Cointaker and sitting in their warehouse. Since I was refinishing my basement, I had all but 3 of my games in storage and no room for my TBL.

DP announced the board problem, said it was slowing things down a bit. But everything seemed positive at that time. Based upon that positivity and confidence in the company (confidence based on what they were doing and saying at the time), I chose to allow concrethardt to take delivery of my machine and I swapped for his fully paid preorder at #141ish.

Needless to say, I am not happy about that. Had DP been honest about what was going on, I would still have my machine. And no, my preorder spot is not for sale anywhere.

Not sure what there is to argue, unless the takeover of HP was a completely hostile takeover, in which case I stand corrected.

You also coordinated the Pinside preorder list, so no one should be sweating you about anything.

I had forgotten that you had swapped your TBL for a later #. Man - that's such a bummer in retrospect! My condolences.

Where can one order a 20th anniversary LE?

For any fans of TBL that are also dog owners, Pendleton will hook you up!

Brad

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They'll just get accused of trying to cover up their problems if it isn't public.

If this is a concern, they just need to set it up as a moderated conference call. Every conf call I've been on where sensitive/confidential info was discussed was done this way. You have to identify yourself to an operator, who checks against the list before letting you on the call. You also have to hit a key combo to enter the queue to ask a question. Of course, I'm not sure that would stop anything from becoming public....may slow it down by a couple of hours...make that a couple of minutes.

20th anniversary of the film?
Or 20th anniversary since pin paid for?

yes

You never even ordered the game and were negative about it all the way until you bought a stock unit... for what appears to be just for personal gain. Then you jump into this thread like you're the king of TBL or something. Give me a break. Just because you managed to scam your way to one of the 50 or so games released doesn't make you anything more than speculator who is only worried about how much his game is worth.

What amazes me the most in this thread is the number of supposed pinheads who seem to want DP to fail.

At this point they deserve to really.

Edit: To be clear, NOBODY wants failure.

Dude, 95% of my comments are tongue in cheek. However, as my blood pressure remains nice and low it's entertaining to see others so affected. Others have made similar comments to me regarding putting Houdini, etc. in my lineup and again, my blood pressure stays low. It's a freaking pinball board, not cancer.

And by the way, I have no preconceived notions that my TBL is actually going to sell for $18K. To be honest, I don't need the money and would rather see DP succeed so I can play the game without worrying about breaking a part.

Who wants them to fail? Wanting truth and accountability isn't the same as wanting failure. This game was the dream of its creators and buyers. No one wants failure.

It's either that, or a whole lot of people on this board like making assumptions without facts, combined with a complete lack of how business works. This whole fiasco can be summed up into a forecasting nightmare. DP counted on ARA to build games at a specific rate that would open new revenue streams to them. Whether it be intentional or by chance, ARA has created this perfect storm through failure to "abide" by the contract.

Making Lies (resized).jpg

...and ARA counted on DP to pay them, and claims they didn't. It's a they said/they said situation, but I think the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Let's hope these are both right. If DP isn't paying that means they have the money, minus BOM for 300 games.

Or they spent all the money trying to look like rock stars at all the pinball shows.

At the time, that was referred to as marketing, something pinball companies have never been known for.

If you have a profit margin of $1500 per machine and 200 machines sold and paid for that is $300,000. That is long gone and then some. That is why they do not have the money to pay ARA. How much did they blow at expo alone? If ARA truly wanted an extra 1k per machine, That would leave 500 profit before shipping costs to get them to there respective countries. Too thin a margin, Too much partying. I hope they take an investor, or let someone buy a majority of the company to get our machines made.

Yep. None of those numbers work. It would be crazy to start a company on those margins.

Which is why I don't think those numbers are anywhere near accurate.

In all fairness, it's not like they were making it rain at shows, but I do see your point. I said the same thing when it was announced Jaap would be at this year's TPF.
I seriously doubt Jaap and Barry were pounding out lines of cocaine topped off with bottles of Dom Perignon. To be honest, their showing at Expo '14 helped sell me (and many others) on the game over the 4-day event. In my opinion, it was a very modest showing based on my experience with product announcements and launches.

I suppose they could've charged admission like Stern, but that would've been lame.

Correct. During 2014 show they had indeed rented a penthouse (a normal hotel room also costs money) and some inexpensive girls to do some show off. How much do a few students cost for a few hours? The drinks came from the local supermarket so how much does it cost to make a White Russian? The only reason their booth was bigger because there was a mixup between them and the expo manager if I recall correctly.

So with just a little money they made a huge impression

Rest of the cost were the same as other manufacturers, eg flight and shipping of machines.

So all this talk about money blowing away, they are Dutch as me and Dutch people are not known for their big spendings

They said/ they said ended when ARA lied to kapper - 10 finished games in the ARA warehouse?? More like 45. And we all know the boxes are huge, how do you miscount a pinball machine? Proof of who is lying. And it's not DP talking, it's independent sources.

I think the 40 figure came from ARA originally, not DP. Have DP ever publicly commented about how many there are? Do they even know, if they're not permitted access to the facility? Per my report, there appeared to be 20 packed up and ready to ship in early November, with assembly on others up to #92 in process. Now they say 10, supposedly?

Only way of telling is gaining access to the facility and counting yourself.

Not that this has anything to do with DP, but I've found the absolute opposite to be true in my short time living here.

Maybe not the conspicuous consumption that rules in other countries - fast cars, jewellery, watches, massive houses, blowing thousands on bottle service at clubs on nights out etc.

But since people of higher income will be paying wealth taxes on money that remains as cash, if they don't spend or invest it, it seems like a lot of people just spend it all. Probably why pinball machine collecting is so popular here relative to other European countries; the money disappears, from a tax perspective.

ARA said 40, now they say only 10 completed games. You were there and saw the games RD, and you moved the boxes. Everything points to bad info coming from ARA. If you're a good CM you cost the project correctly from the start, you deliver when you say you will, and you certainly don't give out wrong info to your customers clients.

You do have to factor in that the 40 number came from the now fired MD, though ... and he also claimed production had ceased in October - which is another discrepancy.

But unless there were empty boxes among the ones I saw, there either have to be at least 20, or 10+ plus have disappeared. Also, the guy who claimed to have spoken to ARA this week offered neither any substantive proof that he'd done so, or said who he spoke to (not saying he didn't).

Again, it's all unknowns.

There's no way ARA should be talking to anyone other than DP directly, that already is a huge blight on ARA's professionalism. I know we like that they are, but thinking it would open up a ton of legal exposure for ARA.

Figured that's really why the guy got booted.. but guess they are still doing it.. amazing.

Calmer than you, dude.

Are you still flogging this dead horse?? Get your money back anyway you can.

Neil, Are you invested in TBL? If not, please stop posting - this is members only thread.

Or at least post something that's productive.

This creates more questions than answers for me, but I do like that they are having to address us more. I wish they would put me back on the mailing list.

Our emails to them and posts on pinside are helping to hold them accountable. That's why they have Unigroove talking to us on this thread I guess. When it was clear that Unigroove doubling down on their views wasn't enough, we get more frequent updates and a Q/A call.

Although the forum feedback is good, it's important that we keep DP informed of our views on this via email directly to them, so keep it up dudes!

While not invested I am following this thread with great interest. I'd like to reiterate a piece of advice though:

Those of you with partial or full preorders and located within the EU: Why don't you simply leverage the very strong consumer protection laws available to you as EU citizens? Non-delivery is a pretty big deal, and you could use the legal framework to force DP to disclose information without starting (potentially expensive) civil legal proceedings.
Granted, depending on how the complaint is handled in the country/ies involved this might take a while to reach a conclusion, but the filing of the matter will on its own put added pressure on DP to come clean.

Something they actually need to do regardless if they want to have any future in this business whatsoever. As it currently stands I wouldn't order a TBL even if it was in a box in front of me. :/

Yes - and then please share whatever info you obtain with the rest of us who are not citizens of EU countries.

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/consumers-dispute-resolution/index_en.htm

This is the biggest bunch of bull I've ever read on pinside ever, and that my friend is saying A LOT.

Keep your subjective opinions to yourself and stop cluttering up the facts with nonsense.

Stop the whining and asuming.

I thought "Club" stands for team spirit , then why don't take some collective action as a Club.

Appoint a leader and go get your money back or TBL 's that are allegedly ready and being allegedly held hostage.

300 X $500 = $150,000
That sure will buy you a good lawyer to get your funds or game.

Im sure you can agree.