The saddest thing about this whole debacle is that they weren't liars. Not like Jpop & skit-B were from day 1. Not like Andrew. They successfully created, licensed, produced and shipped BOP 2.0. They brought those beautiful awesome TBL protos around the world. They made the deal with ARA, they started shipping games. There was no weirdness until quasi recently, but talk about a balloon popping. It's just sad.

Indeed, and at least the TBL we played in November, the contrast with the JPop light boxes or cobbled together, faulty and badly engineered Heighway games couldn't have been more vivid.

I was blown away by how smooth it was, as were others who'd not played it before. It looked and felt like a masterpiece; I hadn't been expecting much from it, gameplay wise.

That's perhaps the one card they have left to play. It's a great pinball machine.

I thought there was a big stink last year when one of their American employees (Phil?) got cold feet/thought that something was amiss and started refunding everybody he could?

I think that was 2014?

Yeah it was a while ago. It was something along the lines of he wasn't comfortable with the business arrangements they had made because it made him personally liable and he didn't want to leave his family in trouble if it all went south.

What's now almost equally fascinating is the market - directly below this thread are 3 ads - 2 for "in-hand" TBL machines at 18k and 25k (nib) and a spot for sale for 8500obo. What really and truly is the market for this? On one hand it is a great game! Super rare, dream theme for many, etc. on the other hand what is a paid spot worth? It's essentially a huge gamble and nothing else. Id LOVE to have this machine but no way in hell am I paying 18k-25k....Is a spot even really worth 8500 for the gamble? I'd say maybe closer to half that...assuming ALL the risk for what appears like an ever-worsening scenario should compel a steep discount, maybe even more than half. In fact every day this goes on the value of a paid spot further deminishes. Does that mean the value of a machine in hand goes up? I just don't know.

Didn't they lie about having board issues when the ARA mess started or am I mixing them up with Heighway?

It was them. There were separate board fiascos with HW. But I think he meant that it started out well - or well by boutique pinball standards:

Yes, that was the lie that snowballed is to where we are now.

Yes, Philgate was a red flag of what was to come - but after Philgate, they still delivered BOP 2.0 & started shipping TBL. So, it seemed like a bump in the road - but in retrospect was a deeper event than some of us believed.

That was just a kit though, wasn't it? A world of difference between ordering a handful of COTS parts (and getting some DMD fascias made) and building 300 games.

True - but as we've seen with pinball, code/sound/animation is a HUGE part of making a game. They accomplished that, arguably better than what Stern or others had done as well - full color animation, 2.1 high quality audio...it's a polished piece of pinball work.

I was in til Phil kicked me out, and at that point I realized there was something quite wrong and stayed out. They lied about the stability of the company at Expo, and they refused to let Phil out because they apparently didn't want to create another U.S. entity to replace him. So, he forced the issue by refunding all the U.S. deposits, which removed the liability from himself and his family.

If Phil had such little faith in DP, why should anyone else have had more?

I've witnessed these boutique companies sometimes inspiring a zealotry and cult-like following....and perhaps some of us, me included, were caught in that phenomenon with Dutch.

I've remained friends with Phil throughout this all...I think he's a good guy, he did the right thing back then.

I too have asked for a refund on more than one occasion with a response of.."we do not have the money to do this" How do you go to new manufacturers with no money? How do you think you will design and build a new BOP with no money? Do you really think after all the lies and no self realization on how bad they are dealing with this, its best to just sit back while they flounder? Rensh, you seem to be a very nice guy and I understand you are friends with Barry and Jaap but this lack of communication, lack of transparency, and out right lies is not something most would want to sit back and just let them "deal" with it.

If they refund one person, they would possibly have to refund everyone and there's realistically not enough money to do that at this time. They are heavily invested in materials and IP which they could leverage in a deal with a new CM if a better deal with ARA can not be negotiated. A money stream is great to have, but not essential for creating a new deal with a new CM.

If they have confidence in their side of things, refunding $8500 on a game they know they can sell for $10k once the problems are solved shouldn't be a problem.

They still aren't. Just because you (and others) don't have all the inside info, and rather go by assumptions and speculations, doesn't mean DP are lying. DP share what they can, but ARA is reading Pinside too and why would DP let them look into their cards? Would you?

So I noticed you offered your game for sale. If Pinside was a stock market the value of TBL would have dropped significantly due to all the speculation and assumptions in this thread. That's all fine, but it doesn't make any sense that you're trying to sell your spot for $8500. I get that you want your money back. It's fine that's you're willing to get out and sell your spot, but the 8500 number is way off. Partly due to your own participation in this thread the value of delivered games on the Pinside market may have gone up, but the value of games being held hostage, or not even build, on the Pinside market simply dropped as they may never be released or build. That's simply how stockmarkets work. DP also indicated they aren't refunding anyone once production started and parts had to be bought. No exceptions for anyone, including you, which actually seems fair. It woudn't be fair if they would refund you, but no-one else.

So that $8500 game you bought simply isn't worth $8500 at the moment. So what is it worth? Well, that just depends on how much people are willing to pay for an uncertainty. If you want to speculate, that's what this is. I'm willing to offer you $3000 USD for your game. If it ever gets released, it goes straight to me. If it doesn't, I lost 3K. Yes, that means you lose $5500, but at least you get some of your money back. It will be my risk whether your game will be released or not, but as things stand right now that game doesn't appear to be moving anytime soon. So you can take 3K now, leave the conversation and start living a happy life, or stay in which isn't likely to make you (and others) very happy. PM me if interested. We'll draw up some paperwork, I'll send you a paypal payment and off you go.

$3k? I am nearly zeroed out on pin funds and even I would top that offer.

(contents edited by Mod team)

You're friends with Barry & Jaap, you probably DO have the inside info, while giving US shit for speculating...what else can we do when we're dealing with this mess!?!?! For all we know, you know things are about to get resolved and you're trying to get my game on the cheap. If you really want my game, give $8500 to Barry and Jaap, then they can formally issue me a refund and give you my game.

Stop lashing out on fucked over customers. All responsibility lies with those who sold us a game and haven't delivered.

Not trying to be a dick, but where was the inside info when there were "board issues?"

This wasn't clearly spelled out to me. I didn't sign any sort of agreement that held me bound to this stipulation.

what else you can do? there's nothing you can do that will solve the situation, so you might as well do nothing, sit back and wait for DP to work out a solution.

I can call you out on your fuckery, is what I can do. No one TRUSTS that they're able to work out a solution with the lack of transparency going on here. We will NOT sit here and do nothing while we've had our money/games held hostage. I can go back to Universal for help in uncovering the truth. DP didn't like it the first time I did it...all it takes is a refund, I vanish. Now go away unless you care to share the information about DP/ARA you most likely know.

We've been sitting back for 3 years. We bought a pinball machine -- not a ticket on Virgin Galactic.

Again assumptions. I know as much as you. Heck, you probably know even more since you're talking to Barry more often than I do. While that should give you all the confidence, yet here you are stirring up a mess.

Creeper stalker. Pretend I'm a woman and STAY THE FUCK AWAY FROM ME.

Victim blamer. Not a shock.

Production has stopped. Refunds should be forthcoming, as DP can no longer fulfill their end of the contract, which is to deliver a game.

He can continue to remind people how untrustworthy Dutch businesspeople are?? :p

JPOP was incompetent.. Kulek was stupid and incompetent. Heighway was victimized by a bad launch title and technical problems. JJP got it done with additional investment. That leaves DP, who have been shady and dishonest ever since Philgate, and are happy to leave their customers twisting in the wind while they try to 'outlast' their contract manufacturer.

Ouch, that's going to leave a mark.

Trying to figure out why Unigroove would want to risk losing the good will that he's built with his magazine by appearing to be a DP apologist/ sycophant.

He feels it's more important to insult me and skapegoat me instead of revealing the truth of the situation.

And voicing disappointment towards people who've supported DP from Jump Street.

Let's not fight each other. We all want DP to come through and deliver all the preorder games to the rightful owners. You have to admit, the project ran into trouble when we signed with ARA - go after them.

Absolutely appalling this is only a 1 day ban from the thread. I understand the frustration but just no excuse for this type of rant. Do this in your personal emails to DP but not on here.

DP is incapable of working out a solution.

-removed-

Thank you Phil, wherever you are

Even if they have zero funds left. I wouldn't continue with the contract manufacturer that continues to jack increases, & holds pins finished hostage. Along with any parts held there also. They should come clean with what is happening, & take them through the legal process. Try & find another contractor to finish up the pins even if it's slow & steady over time.

DP is done. DONE. No one will ever buy another game from them ever again. Their name is in the same league as JPop. They could deliver all 300 TBLs tomorrow, complete with a personal siren to suck you off into a 45 minute climax as you unbox it and no one, NO ONE with half a brain would ever trust DP with their money again. It's over. They pissed the money away and they're not man enough to admit that they're responsible. They failed, and their customers took the hit.

Not really done. Rarehero turned down 3K so he's still a believer and Unigroove offered to buy it, so there's a new customer. Has the whole world gone crazy, why is everyone helping ARA ??

No one is helping ARA. ARA is immaterial; we're not customers of ARA. We (were) customers of DP. Buyers of TBL have absolutely no relationship to ARA. It's like complaining that Aramark is at fault for the torn sheets at my Marriott hotel instead of Marriott because Aramark is the linen vendor.

You're not at all worried that if something breaks on your TBL that you'll never be able to get replacement parts from DP?

You underestimate the power of pinball!

Say DP gets all the TBLs made and provides good support without anyone losing any money, just watch people lining up if they announce the next game is Blade Runner or "insert your grail theme here".

You are helping ARA with every down post to DP, without any facts to support the angry post. No, not worried about parts breaking - the game is solid. Concerned that people at the end of the line may not get their games if a bad deal with ARA is rushed into.

Wait a second... "We"? Are you affiliated with DP?

Yes, I'm #77 dude..What's your number?

the royal "we'"....Are you in on TBL? This is a members only thread.

Oh no, it's members only!!!!

Mag je goederen van je klant achterhouden totdat hij betaalt?

29 september 2015
Elke ondernemer heeft wel eens te maken met wanbetaling. Dat is frustrerend: jij hebt je diensten geleverd of reeds werk verzet, de klant betaalt uiteindelijk niet. Soms heb je echter nog eigendommen van de klant in je bezit, om welke reden dan ook. Logischerwijs denk je dan direct: ‘Hij krijgt niets terug, totdat hij betaald heeft.’

De vraag in dit artikel is dan ook: mag je als ondernemer de goederen van je klant achterhouden totdat de klant betaald heeft? Kan de klant zich op het standpunt stellen dat hij een eigendomsrecht heeft en dat hij op basis daarvan zijn spullen terug moet krijgen?

Opschorting

Dit artikel is vooral van belang voor ondernemers die goederen van hun klant ‘onder zich’ hebben. Denk aan de fietsenmaker die de fiets van een klant in zijn werkplaats heeft staan. Denk aan de stomerij die nog kleren van een klant heeft liggen. Het betreft dus geen goederen die nog aan de klant moeten worden geleverd, al gaat dit gedeelte over opschorting daar ook voor op.

Zodra er sprake is van het niet nakomen van verplichtingen door de klant, kun je als ondernemer ervoor kiezen om je verplichtingen op te schorten. Je komt dan pas je verplichtingen na zodra de klant het ook heeft gedaan. Dat kan ook indien je goede reden hebt om aan te nemen dat de klant zijn verplichtingen niet zal nakomen (maar er dus nog geen sprake is van een tekortkoming).

Het is van belang om je als ondernemer te realiseren dat er enkele uitzonderingen op deze mogelijkheid van opschorting bestaan. Twijfel je aan de toepasselijkheid van deze regels, dan is het verstandig om een jurist te raadplegen.

Retentierecht

Hoe zit het dan met de klant die niet betaalt, maar zich beroept op zijn eigendomsrecht? Hij wil zijn fiets of zijn versgestoomde broek terug. Kan hij zich beroepen op het eigendomsrecht?

Het antwoord is (uiteraard) ontkennend. Met een beroep op het zogenaamde retentierecht, kun je als ondernemer ook een beroep op het eigendomsrecht laten afketsen. Kortom: eerst betalen, daarna pas afgifte van de zaak die je nog moet teruggeven.

Mocht je kosten hebben moeten maken om de zaak te behouden (je hebt bijvoorbeeld een garagebox moeten huren of je hebt onderhoudswerkzaamheden moeten doen om de zaak in goede staat te houden), dan kun je verwachten dat die kosten óók eerst betaald worden voordat je tot teruggave overgaat.

Daarnaast moet je opletten dat je het retentierecht op tijd inroept: geef je de goederen alvast terug en beroep je je dan nog op je rententierecht, dan ben je te laat. Het recht is namelijk geëindigd op het moment van teruggave, zelfs als de klant nog niet heeft betaald.

Mag je de goederen houden als de klant blijft weigeren te betalen?

Wanneer de klant zelfs na een aantal aanmaningen niet bereid blijkt om de rekening te betalen, kun je niet zomaar besluiten om de goederen te houden of te verkopen. Je zult dan de juridisch juiste weg moeten bewandelen.

Als er totaal niet wordt meegewerkt, zal dat een gang naar de rechter betekenen. Daar zal waarschijnlijk je beste keuze het vorderen van nakoming van de overeenkomst zijn (dus betaling van de overeengekomen prijs). Pas daarna kan het tot een verkoop van de achtergehouden goederen komen.

Kortom

Betaalt je klant niet? Houd dan de zaken die je nog van hem hebt achter totdat hij wel heeft betaald. Betaalt hij nog steeds niet? Dan moet je naar de rechter.

Zit je met een probleem waar je zelf niet uitkomt? Laat het ons weten, dan bekijken wij wat we voor je kunnen doen.

Vermoeden dat klant niet zal betalen, wat nu?
Vermoeden dat klant niet zal betalen, wat nu?
27 december 2016
In "Ondernemingsrecht"
Klant betaalt niet: hoe zit het met incassokosten?
Klant betaalt niet: hoe zit het met incassokosten?
5 april 2016
In "Ondernemingsrecht"
Faillissement van klant aanvragen om factuur te incasseren?
Faillissement van klant aanvragen om factuur te incasseren?
11 april 2017
In "Beslag"
Juridische hulp nodig?

NEEM CONTACT OP
Auteur

mr. B.G.N. (Bart) Gubbels - Advocaat
ondernemingsrecht, arbeidsrecht, contractenrecht

b.g.n.gubbels@

Time to contact the lawyers !!

( google translate the main text)

Get a load of this guy telling the mods how to moderate. wew lad

My rats all have penises.

Man, I love "The Big Lebowski Pre Order Club (Members Only)."

+1 Thanks Phil

Well, I'm not looking to risk that. I'm just trying to look at the situation with some common sense, although it appears this may be the wrong place for that There's no point in assuming and speculating as it literaly won't do anything for you, except maybe raise your bloodpressure. Seriously, can anyone name a good example of a situation where they didn't have any control over, yet stirring up a pot on a public forum (that the people in charge of the situation aren't even looking at) solved everything?

Assuming and speculating will not get games made any sooner. So why bother? The only people who can work on a solution are Barry and Jaap. As far as I can tell they are trying to the best of their capabilities to find a solution to get games build, as they have mentioned before. It may not go as fast as you like, but it won't go any faster by speculating, or getting upset about not getting a refund. So what's the point? It's like being stuck in traffic. You can go crazy all you want in your car, but does that help moving the traffic any faster? Or do you just go along with the flow? I prefer to go with the flow.

I get that some people are dissapointed. I've been supporting DP since day 1. They were a fresh breeze in the industry. The game they designed kicks ass. Guess what: I have a game on order that hasn't even been build, so I'm in the same boat as the other Achievers. Sure I wonder whether things will work out, and I certainly hope they do, but whether they do or don't is not in my hands.

Have to agree with @EternalLife. Based on what I know I still find it odd all the anger seems to be pointed at DP, who are trying to find a solution, while ARA are the ones to blame for the current mess. It's like hitting the mechanic working on your car with a bat to get him to hurry up. Obviously that's not helping. Sure I understand the reasoning that we bought a product from DP, not ARA, but if you know DP is trying their best and ARA hasn't been very cooperative, does it make sense to bash DP while they are trying to find a solution?

Let's just see if this week's newsletter will bring some news.