As I wrote in the other thread about class action, I have no horse in this race other than an interest in the TBL machine.

However, having skimmed through the latest events, my opinion as an outsider with some experience in business is as follows (for what it is worth, to most of you I am just a random stranger on the net ).

I would not trust Dutch Pinball at this point. This is simply based on their communication (content and style) and that they are obviously putting their majority ownership interest above the survival of the company.
It should be perfectly clear to them that without resolving this situation swiftly and smoothly, DP has no future at all. 49% of something or 100% of nothing? If you have *any* business experience, the choice here should be very simple.

Edit to elaborate, even though obvious: As a small operator in a niche industry, consumer trust is an asset they cannot afford to lose. They will not be able to produce future products with a reputation tarnished by 100+ customers not receiving product paid for.

Also to take into consideration is the fact that they got themselves into this position in the first place. There has been mentions of "breach of contract". That sounds more as if there is disagreement over the terms, which seems to imply the contract was poorly written.
There could be a power/size difference of the companies involved (DP is a small, even part time(?) business and ARA is a mid-size operation?), and there could well be the case that ARA is taking advantage of that fact and that DP might be in the right.
However, and this is important, DP is *still* responsible for getting into that situation and is beholden to customers that have prepaid.

Their focus, and their *only* focus, at this point should be to ride this out with their reputation intact. If so, they can always sell the remaining 49% and start another company.
On the other hand, if this ends in misery (which looks quite likely at this point), they not only lose their business but their personal reputations as well. I would never risk that.

My advice (again FWIW) would be to get a lawyer and threaten legal action while explaining the above (reputation and the impossibility of a future if this is not resolved) hoping for a change of mind. If not, sue. You have absolutely nothing to lose IMHO.

(Again, not a lawyer, advice given FWIW, etc. yada, yada). Good luck to everyone - hope it works out!

Lots of bad news coming out today. Sorry TBL buyers.

I heard Jaap speak at TPF in April, and this latest announcement reads like he spoke. Was a lot of meaningless "motivation speak" that might work if he had something positive to say, but when attempting to explain your way out of a shit-fight, just sounds like he's lying and trying to divert attention from the real issues.

It was obvious from early on that Phil knew these guys were a couple of dipshits

They have lied and F ed people over from day one for their own benefit.

I had fully paid after Expo and thankfully Phil sent all the money back that he had control over.

What a cluster F

I let my desire for a TBL get the better of me. Classic con. I wanted it too badly.

Poorer and smarter I hope.

I've sorta half-joked about selling my spot before...but I'm serious now. It's not that I've lost faith (I talked to Barry this morning and he was still positive about everything) ...but I've lost interest. I'm emotionally disinvested now. I don't even care about the game anymore. The entire experience has ruined any possible joy that may come with this game. If I actually get mine, I'm most likely just going to sell it.

Anyone interested in buying my spot for #56, which has been sitting at ARA since September '16, it's for sale. I just want the $8500 I paid for it. If I actually take delivery, I'll be selling it for $10k+

Have patience or a gambling spirit and wanna take it off my...well, not my hands...take it off my conscience? Hit me up.

What a terrible turn of events.

I think some big egos are involved here. Did they really poll all the early achievers? It's hard to beleave only 2-3 support option 1.

See the poll and commentary here:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/dp-values-your-advice-on-tbl-vote-here#post-3799732

There are plenty more than 2-3 people who are for DP gaining a financial partner/investor.

I've been watching from the sidelines hoping this whole mess got fixed. But after reading this I do think you guys who pre-ordered need to speak with a lawyer and sue collectively for their stake in the company to get your assets back. Surely one of you can talk to a lawyer and start something? Because something should be done, and soon.

https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder411/500x/37124411/big-lebowski-bunch-of-fucking-amateurs.jpg

You make it sound like a great deal, but chances are slimming down by the minute, shouldn't you be selling your spot for (a lot) less than what you paid? I have seen people selling RAZA or AIW spots for under half of what they paid for it.

I think Rarehero 's game is one of the 40 already produced and sitting in a box with ARA. Not sure if that makes his spot more valuable or not. If DP legal action against ARA were successful, it would most likely mean his game would be released for shipping.

(All conjecture of course).

If Barry is "positive" about everything, then presumably Jaap wrote that update? Maybe he shouldn't do that again ... difficult to construe any of either the tone or content as remotely positive.

Such breathless arrogance from DP, read that statement with my jaw on the floor. I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, but jeez, they really don't care about anyone else apart from themselves. Hell, even Andy had the decency to leave HP when it became clear it wasn't working out like it should have done.

If nivoge gets 51 percent they might decide to sell the remaining games publicly to pay dp debts to ara and then shut down the line and be done with it.
The update telling the majority is willing to wait brings back memories of a majority that was wanting a standard apron instead of a custom lighted one. That's a plain stupid move and not telling how it is. If you want to lie, learn to lie better. Better tell the truth though.

Who!!???

CGC,Stern,JJP any other pinball factories out there??

Based on what weve seen in pinball for start ups,"Mark it zero,dude."What a shame

RAZA and AIW don't exist and never will. My game has existed since last September.

Just you have some context - I don't need the money. This isn't a "fire sale". If I'm going to take the route of losing money, it'll be as part of a lawsuit. I just literally don't care about the game anymore. Some wants to buy my spot - it's available. If not, I'll wait and whatever happens, happens. I'm just not excited for it anymore. I won't lose sleep if I never play it. In my life, The Big Lebowski is merely a great movie, it's no longer something I care to own in pinball form.

Here's what was misleading IMO - the letter sounds like shit is over with ARA again since they talk about exploring other options. But it's not - they're just waiting for a response.

I guess their play is by letting ARA know they're not the only option, they're hoping they'll continue to negotiate without asking for 51% of the company.

So - it's still an active situation. I think most of us read the letter as though ts back to the pre-Rene situation again.

I don't think a letter of that tone is likely to serve them very well with anyone. But I guess we'll see.

Actually there is only one group: 100% of EAs and those with deposits down want their TBL ASAP and would like to see DP build more machines as long as it is not at the expense of the first goal. It appears DP cares more about their pride than their integrity. ARA/Nivoge has them by the pinballs and they are clearly desperate and acting foolishly.

So why wasn't this slam dunk of a procedure already started? Wait. Lawyers cost money? Where's the money, Lebowski? Answer: they don't have any. They spent it on living expenses, traveling and "celebrating" the last 3 years. With the pathetic BoP 2.5 and multiple other tell tale signs, I am not sure how anyone believes that DP is anything but completely broke.

51% of nussing is still nussing.

I just have a deposit with Nitro so I don't really have a horse in this race. I feel terrible for the EAs whom this most recent update is likely a $8500+ "statement" for. DP clearly thought they had a stronger position in these negotiations than they did.

Screenshot_20170603-113122 (resized).png

The most frustrating thing for me with this whole TBL debacle, besides the fact of course, that I'm now coming up on 3 YEARS of being invested in a game now held hostage in Holland, is the lack of any available substantiated information that we're to base a decision upon and how little control we seem to have in resolving the root issue(s). Trust DP? Rely on Nivoge/ARA? Believe the fellow Pinsider who claims to have experience in these matters?

FWIW, an interesting portion of a post from Aurich on the "Rebirth of Heighway Pinball" thread (https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/rebirth-of-heighway-pinball/page/3#post-3800644) that adds to my wondering as to who really knows what they're talking about:

this is what i find strange in this whole situation. DP claims again and agian that ARA is the one screwing them over and breaching the contract.

so why not start the law suit already ?

A lawsuit would mean a stall of any activity for at least two or more years.
So no pins whatsoever to anyone and surely no Lebowski's built by any other manufacturer.

...and 99% chance they cannot afford it.

il_570xN.230615711 (resized).jpg

i usually like to sit back and watch the drama unfold, but seriously guys/gals, we can literally mentally masturbate this situation all day. The fact is, we don't know all the facts (if we actually know any at all), and to sit here and randomly speculate is only going to make some of you insane. The only thing we have as hard evidence is that around 50 games are held at ARA, 50ish games have been delivered, and all the non-early achievers have deposits held that are outside of DP's reach. This means that there is a substantial sum of money basically out of DP's reach until the EA games are done.

Why not make an option 3, start running the non achiever games so that the deposits are released, get the line rolling, and deliver them all at the same time?

does anyone actually know if ARA has 50 completed games waiting to ship - has anyone actually verified this?

proxy (resized).jpg

I find it irritating that some people with no skin in the game are cheer-leading for a lawsuit with no explanation. You maybe right and I'm even leaning that way after the latest news.

But please cite your reasons or intellectually explain your position rather than methodically and simply shouting, Burn her, she's a Witch.

DrNGvFW (resized).jpg

It's like the movie man. Just a simple plot but it never gets old.

Selling #thebiglebowskil =undude
@eggbert52=undude

Disagree. Its his right to sell what he owns just like anyone else. Same as the people who are now selling their Alien and Full Throttle machines.

You may find it distasteful but the argument here is not with Eggbert but with DP.

So, eggbert was the guy that trashed even the idea of a TBL machine the most during the early days.. obnoxiously (ignore list). And now he has one of the first 50 for sale ? How can someone be that twisted ?

I think those of you that are upset DP didn't take the deal with ARA and Nivoge are making one very incorrect assumption. This decision guarantees that TBL will be made.

Perhaps the assets that DP has in the company are worth more than whatever 51% is. A very common takeover tactic (Romney, trump, etc.) is to transfer those assets to the controlling company (in this case Nivoge) then bankrupt the remainder (DP).

I would consider that it is still possible DP is actually protecting the game by refusing the deal.

Let's hope so.

I got a PM today from a fellow pinsider to which I responded and perhaps good to share my thoughts with my fellow achievers. I have been silent for some time just to let it cool down, also with me. But perhaps time to share my thoughts/feelings again and put my flamesuit on

Dear ....,

There is not so much I can add to the news. When Rene left ARA I (and DP) really thought this would be now solved quickly. However, its not as we all see now and believe me, the lack of progress is not because DP takes a lot of time in answering ARA's questions. The delay is purely caused by ARA.

Than the 51% deal. Given the fact how ARA has handled DP over the last year and broke nearly every contract/deal/agreement, this both in regard to pricing as deltime. Would it really be wise to give the steeringwheel to them? Their hart is not into pinball. Would we really be better off? I have my sincere doubts. What will they do if they have the control over DP? Will they really startup production again? Or use their controlling interest to make sure DP doesnt start a lawsuit against them? Its not like with JJP and HP where pinball lovers take a controlling interest and truely wanna make pinballs (allthough with HP this still has to be proven). ARA has no ties in the pinball world. A bad rep with pinball lovers wouldnt hurt their daily business most likely.

Difficult matter for sure. DP has legal counsil from more than 1 lawyer and till now have been advised against it.

And yes, this is all taking (to) long, I fully agree on this. I (and DP to believe me) want to see finally more results. If it is DP starting a
lawsuit against ARA, so be it. If it is another CM, fine to. If it is ARA voluntary making TBL again, the best. Just see something happening.
Problem ofcourse making a wrong decision can mean end of TBL. I think we more or less have only 1 shot left in the gun. So good aiming is a must and a quick shot from the hip can ruin everything

To be cntd and hang in there buddy.

Regards, Rens

They have been aiming their gun for 8 months now. It may be time to pull the trigger.

DP is going from Dutch Pinball to Double Penetration on all its customers from what I can see. Sad state all these startups have ended up at.

Based on the sleazy manner in which Nivoge slipped onto the scene and demanded 51%, rather than trying to be a 50/50 partner, indicates they probably would have taken steps to screw DP out of any money. Agree they likely would have transferred assets out and bankrupted DP, only for TBL pinball machine to emerge under another umbrella - this was not a legitimate option for Dutch Pinball. By suggesting this plan (scheme), it indicates ARA isn't going to spend any additional time negotiating terms on existing pins. Best course of action for DP at this point is to begin legal proceedings. It may be a long road, but once the paperwork is filed, the clock will begin ticking and ARA might see the light one day and negotiate the sale of 50 hostage machines back to DP during the wait. It is painfully obvious now though, without actual legal action, ARA is not motivated to do anything more.

This case couldn't cost DP much to litigate. A few grand to file motions, ten grand to review files and correspond some, another ten grand if it goes to court. This case does not have that many twists and turns. Instead if DP was able to get this into an arbitration court instead, the costs would be even less.

It's time for DP to light the legal afterburners, before the company flame blows out, leaving a trail of thin rising smoke. The Dude would insist.

I don't believe anything from the DP camp at this point.

I finally did some homework and spoke with ARA this week.

DP is broke. They want us to believe this is a sinister plan conspired by ARA but after speaking with them I simply don't believe it.

I was dumb and purchased a "hostage game" - per ARA there is nowhere close to 50 games being held - more like 10. I offered to pay a significant premium to get my game shipped (its in the 70's) and I was told that my game HAS NOT BEEN BUILT.

Take it for whatever its worth - if someone starts a lawsuit against DP I will be glad to join, otherwise I'm done worrying about this.

Best of luck to all - another lesson learned.

It never ceases to amaze me, the people who just take liars words for it and run with it.
They are broke. They screwed it up by pissing away money left right and center. They still are lying and hiding behind God knows who. Lawyers, business advisors? Comon. After all these companies out and out lie I think I will caution on the side of time to sue DP. kapper we are on it and will pm you when we need you

Shocker, DP might not be telling the truth...again.

For what it's worth... When I was talking to Renee at ARA back in the day, he told me that my game was done. My game number was 76. With that said, I don't believe any of these stories anymore. And I keep getting further and further from giving a sh!t.... as much as I really wanted this game..

Brian

Geert, can you comment on this?

This is NOT true. Easy to proof. There was a VIP party nov 2016 which photos and videos were shot.

You can see a video made at

Just see the pins on the assemblyline and the ones in the carton boxes (2:44) and tell me thats only 10 pcs. Somebody needs to go back to school if thats supposed to be only 10 to learn counting.

For whats it worth to you, my info tells pins up to serialno 95 have been build. Saw an ARA app supporting this claim.

Come on guys, I know DP has made his share of mistakes and the PCB-lie was one of them but this namecalling and other stuff, does a keyboard make some of you guys an animal or something? They are not the evil some people are referring to allthough they are humand like we all are.

So, ARA caught here in a lie, perhaps DP reluctance in signing 51% to them makes more sense??

And yes, I am friends to DP but I am in the same position as you guys, awaiting my TBL and my money is on the line to. I am only better informed as most of you but its also my hard-earned cash.

5 finished in a box and 3 cabinets and partials stuffed into other boxes. Yeah call it 40. And for a while folks kept saying 50.

I wonder how much ARA can charge daily for storage.

I wonder if ARA will screw up sell one and give DP back the upper hand?

Maybe that is what DP is waiting for?

You just can't make this shit up.