(Topic ID: 115360)

The Big Lebowski Preorder Club (Members Only)


By Nilroc

4 years ago



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26 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 20 (Show topic index)

There are 11122 posts in this topic. You are on page 101 of 223.
#5001 2 years ago
Quoted from Sonny_Jim:

The main OS is open source,

This is my understanding and another reason why I want the remaining machines built. A library of code written by 300 owners verses 50 has much greater potential.

Parts scarcity is practically a non issue in this age of 3-D printers, hobby fabricators and Planetary Pinball. I remember a day when Cliffy was the only game in town.

#5002 2 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

This is my understanding and another reason why I want the remaining machines built. A library of code written by 300 owners verses 50 has much greater potential.
Parts scarcity is practically a non issue in this age of 3-D printers, hobby fabricators and Planetary Pinball. I remember a day when Cliffy was the only game in town.

IMO, I think Planetary Pinball could do a bit more, but that's a topic for another thread.

#5003 2 years ago

WTF DP. Get it done, enough of this nonsense. Stop delaying the inevitable please.

#5004 2 years ago

Here is our weekly update about the latest developments of the production of The Big Lebowski™ Pinball.
In our newsletter of two weeks ago we informed you that Nivoge (the holding that owns our contract manufacturer ARA) had demanded 51% of the shares in Dutch Pinball BV. Since then we received a lot of advice and talked to a lot of people about Nivoge’s offer. We will share some of them with you.
Basically there are two groups:
1. Early achievers who want their TBL asap.
2. Early achievers who want their TBL asap and would like DP to build more pins in the future.
Group 1 advised us to accept EVERYTHING just to get their TBL (please note that this decision may be based on lack of knowledge on the conditions we would have to deal with).
Group 2 pointed out a lot of risks when we would give away the majority of our shares. Here are a few remarks that we received:
- Nivoge would then be able to change all the existing contracts in the favor of Nivoge and ARA
- DP has a contract with ARA and not with Nivoge. In fact, DP has no relation with Nivoge. Why drag in a third company to make things more complicated?
- When we own only 49% of the shares in Dutch Pinball we would not be able to start a legal procedure against ARA (if DP would start a legal procedure against ARA for breach of contract, the odds that a judge will rule in favor of DP is very likely!)
- There’s a big uncertainty about future pinball projects when being owned by Nivoge as pinball is not the core business of Nivoge and ARA
- When giving Nivoge 51% of the shares we would ‘reward’ ARA’s poor performance and breach of contract. Beside that this doesn’t feel right, there also no guarantees that ARA will restart building TBL and release the games that have been held hostage for the past months
- Can we trust ARA and Nivoge? ARA proved over and over again that they don’t care much about contracts and promises…

There are more remarks but these are the major ones that will get you an idea about the downsides of the suggested deal.
Group 1 is very small (2 or 3 achievers). Most of you want DP to be in business for the long term and we also want this. Therefore we decided to turn down the offer of Nivoge as we feel there are way too many risks connected to it.
We received no reaction het from Nivoge or ARA yet and we therefore will also look for an alternative manufacturer to build TBLs. We already talked to VDL about it and will look for others as well. As soon as we have more news we will let you know.
We hope that you appreciate this update and want to thank you again for your massive support. It really is great to see that the majority of you guys keep supporting us. We will get you your TBL!
We will send out another update next week.
Kind regards,
Barry & Jaap

#5005 2 years ago

MARK IT ZERO!!!!!!! Well...FUCK.

#5006 2 years ago

To act like everyone's concern is anything besides....am I actually going to get my money back? Is this actually going to ever happen? Don't act like everyone with cash on the table (near 10K) is not concerned first and foremost about 1 thing....fruition of their investment.

You got it over your head DP, and we're the ones paying for it...

#5007 2 years ago
Quoted from Nikonokin:

Here is our weekly update about the latest developments of the production of The Big Lebowski™ Pinball.
In our newsletter of two weeks ago we informed you that Nivoge (the holding that owns our contract manufacturer ARA) had demanded 51% of the shares in Dutch Pinball BV. Since then we received a lot of advice and talked to a lot of people about Nivoge’s offer. We will share some of them with you.
Basically there are two groups:
1. Early achievers who want their TBL asap.
2. Early achievers who want their TBL asap and would like DP to build more pins in the future.
Group 1 advised us to accept EVERYTHING just to get their TBL (please note that this decision may be based on lack of knowledge on the conditions we would have to deal with).
Group 2 pointed out a lot of risks when we would give away the majority of our shares. Here are a few remarks that we received:
- Nivoge would then be able to change all the existing contracts in the favor of Nivoge and ARA
- DP has a contract with ARA and not with Nivoge. In fact, DP has no relation with Nivoge. Why drag in a third company to make things more complicated?
- When we own only 49% of the shares in Dutch Pinball we would not be able to start a legal procedure against ARA (if DP would start a legal procedure against ARA for breach of contract, the odds that a judge will rule in favor of DP is very likely!)
- There’s a big uncertainty about future pinball projects when being owned by Nivoge as pinball is not the core business of Nivoge and ARA
- When giving Nivoge 51% of the shares we would ‘reward’ ARA’s poor performance and breach of contract. Beside that this doesn’t feel right, there also no guarantees that ARA will restart building TBL and release the games that have been held hostage for the past months
- Can we trust ARA and Nivoge? ARA proved over and over again that they don’t care much about contracts and promises…
There are more remarks but these are the major ones that will get you an idea about the downsides of the suggested deal.
Group 1 is very small (2 or 3 achievers). Most of you want DP to be in business for the long term and we also want this. Therefore we decided to turn down the offer of Nivoge as we feel there are way too many risks connected to it.
We received no reaction het from Nivoge or ARA yet and we therefore will also look for an alternative manufacturer to build TBLs. We already talked to VDL about it and will look for others as well. As soon as we have more news we will let you know.
We hope that you appreciate this update and want to thank you again for your massive support. It really is great to see that the majority of you guys keep supporting us. We will get you your TBL!
We will send out another update next week.
Kind regards,
Barry & Jaap

Regardless of whether they're turning down the tabled offer, and whether or not this marks an end to talks re: resuming production with ARA / Nivoge, I don't think they're helping matters by expounding their point 2) in breathless and somewhat sensationalist fashion.

I get the feeling their lawyer or 'business consultant' didn't look at this one before it was sent out ...

DP, you really should know better ... regardless of whether everyone else is losing their shit, you need to be cool, calm, collected and as objective as you can. The tone of much of this post resembled much of the worst posts on Pinside or the internet generally.

#5008 2 years ago

It was totally defensive which is why I'm laying in... To act like the majority of your investors are most concerned about your future is laughable at this stage. Do I hope DP succeeds? Of course. BUT am I MOST concerned about my money on the table...of course.

#5009 2 years ago

Giving up ownership would be a tough pill to swallow.

But what happens now?

#5010 2 years ago

Duplicate

#5011 2 years ago

Seems like it will be a LOOOONG road ahead starting over with a new manufacturer.

#5012 2 years ago
Quoted from Nikonokin:

We hope that you appreciate this update

Oof

#5013 2 years ago

What a crock of shit. To think people thought that the firing of that dude signaled DP was being mistreated. These new guys seem worse. Only a couple guys want their game at all costs? I find that hard to believe. Then again, the truth never seemed to be DP's friend.

#5014 2 years ago

[sigh]

#5015 2 years ago

I'm officially one of the couple guys that wants his machine. Or his money. Don't care which, just have no reason to think the new manufacturer solves what has been a bumpy road up to now. SO it will be a piece of cake and on schedule this time, right? LOL.

#5016 2 years ago

I have no horse in this race. I do wish the best of luck to all involved!
Maybe I'll get to play one one day if they get this fixed, so in that regard I guess I do have at least a little pony in the race!

10
#5017 2 years ago

I agree with DP:

Poor performance, breech of contract, and lying are a bad way to run a business.

Wait a second...

#5018 2 years ago

DP is not reading Pinside if they think Group 1 is only 2-3 Achievers. They are also wrong to think that those that want their game ASAP want to see them fail. There is an old adage, "better a slice of a watermelon than all of a pea" which may or may not apply here. Admittedly, I am not in the ARA discussions, nor have I seen the contract(s). But I do believe, as a buyer, I have every reason to look at DP as having not operated in my best interest.

I fear that DP may not have many, if any, real alternatives in which case history could easily look back and point at the decision to not take this deal as the final nail in the DP coffin. I hope not, but see my game and money fading into a dark abyss.

Vey upsetting and very sad.

20
#5019 2 years ago

And how did I know DP would put their own best interests first. I was never asked my opinion as a early adopter and again they portray us all by quoting the reasons they don't want to take a deal. What a crock. This signals the death of TBL and quite frankly DP. I don't even want to get into their reasoning and how a "deal" would go down. This is not a lawyer or business man making the decisions this is the same two egos who have always made bad decisions from the start. RIP DP and most everyone that entrusted their hard earned money to these clowns

#5020 2 years ago

Totally agree....without our 3 million bucks or whatever it is how does DP exist? Yet, we get no say, no opinion that matters unless it's in agreement with DP's, no vote, and DP doesn't have any timetables they seem to care about...well...I never said I was okay getting my machine 5 years down the road. WTF.

#5021 2 years ago

...and why aren't you concerned more about your rep DP?! Without your reputation, who is going to put a deposit down on a new design in the future? How are the sales looking on your latest announcement?...

My goal here is not to make DP feel shitty, I do wish they'd succeed....the problem is it's our money, and we're concerned dude.

#5022 2 years ago

Someone find a good lawyer in Holland and go after them sooner then later.

DP will never produce anything anymore , they simple don't have the cash to do so unless they do a preorder again and use your money. Will you ??

Wake up folks and do something
Go find a lawyer, sease their assets
Freeze their accounts , etc ,etc.

#5023 2 years ago

Seems to me the value of their company is zero at this point, so where's the harm in giving up half of zero to see their first and last game built and delivered?

And once all the TBLs are delivered, what's to stop them from folding DP and starting anew to get out from under Nivoge?

#5024 2 years ago

EXACTLY! If they made the deal, they survive... They should have solved it, shipped em, moved on, started over if they can't come to terms with new partner. It's not that I want them to lose control...but they've already lost it. And the reputation is going to be hurting...

#5025 2 years ago

I am not vested here monetarily. However, I want to say that I feel for each of you. Keep your chins up!

#5026 2 years ago

Are we really to believe that only 2 or 3 of us just want our money/product while the other (what, 200 people) are chanting "DP!, DP!" while we are staring at losing $8500+ of our hard earned cash because we just want DP to pull out of this to "continue producing machines years in the future"? I don't think many of us believe this is probable at this point.

Well I feel that DP needs to do this on their own dime, not ours. The fact that they can't tells me that this is going to be a lose/lose going forward from here.

This dispute started what, 9 months ago.. and there is ZERO progress from that point.

#5027 2 years ago

MARK IT ZERO!!!!!

#5028 2 years ago

DP should be more concerned with producing the 250 machines they sold than worrying about the future of DP. Their boat has sailed, they have 2 guys left (the owners) and think they have a future? Make the deal and ensure no changes in the contract for the 250 games and be done with game 1. At least save your dignity and give people what they paid for.

15
#5029 2 years ago

Is there anyone in the Holland area that has had it with these ego driven morons and want to do a little leg work to find a good bankruptcy lawyer? Please PM me.No deal in business isn't figured out right to the end ie if they give up 51% ARA or whoever need to achieve ab and c in order to retain 51% of the company. These are lies perpetuated by the big egos of DP and they are never gonna sell machines in the future anyway. They are done handling anyone's money but their own! Who the fu*&%$ would entrust these idiots with money again?

#5030 2 years ago

So, If I read this correct, DP is only doing what we are asking them to do?

Who want their Game instead of a rocky path to the cliff of death instead?

Funny enough, they never asked me what I want, but now we are the reason why they chose this path?

Someone has been eating from the strange smelling dutch cookie jar

#5031 2 years ago

il_570xN.230615711 (resized).jpg

#5032 2 years ago
Quoted from karl:

So, If I read this correct, DP is only doing what we are asking them to do?
Who want their Game instead of a rocky path to the cliff of death instead?
Funny enough, they never asked me what I want, but now we are the reason why they chose this path?
Someone has been eating from the strange smelling dutch cookie jar

No they just lie. Always have always will

#5033 2 years ago
Quoted from Nikonokin:

1. Early achievers who want their TBL asap.
2. Early achievers who want their TBL asap and would like DP to build more pins in the future.

Oh wouw, these guys are fucking hilarious. They cant even deliver their first pin to the initial small group of people, and they are already talking about all the future pins they are going to build? I am sure people are lining up to make a full deposit for game 2 (not the bp remake) ! Must be a huge group! Why havent they opened the pre-orders yet ?

I have a theory, they probably went to a coffee shop to get some professional advice from a successful person who has delivered many pins since starting his own business. Maybe JPOP?

Quoted from Cobray:

.
This dispute started what, 9 months ago.. and there is ZERO progress from that point.

Now they will probably start a law suit against ARA, how long is that going to take ? Months if not years?

#5034 2 years ago

They are full of shit.

How do they propose paying a new CM? How will they get the parts and machines released? When was the Early Achiever advice poll taken?

What CM would agree to build these machines without money up front? DP has no leverage with ARA. Except this imaginary lawsuit that is so much in their favor - and such a slam fucking dunk - that they have decided not to pursue it. Whew, lucky for ARA! A close shave!!

The only way they proceed with a new CM is with a new financial partner. And I don't know anyone that would put in that kind of money without a controlling interest or a management agreement that puts them in charge.

And lastly, companies buy businesses to make money, not shut them down. I doubt that the private equity company that bought Stern was a pinball manufacturer. They just like making money. DP should pursue an agreement like that, accept (graciously) a minority interest and see if they can remain a company.

#5035 2 years ago

Hard to believe only 2 or 3 early achievers want them to take the deal and get the games made. Some one please start a poll so we can send them the real numbers.

#5036 2 years ago

1st vote...TAKE THE DEAL.

#5037 2 years ago
Quoted from karl:

Who want their Game instead of a rocky path to the cliff of death instead?

Well, with accepting this deal, only the already built machines might be "save"
There is absolutely no guarantee that they will continue to assemble the other 200 pins....so there is big potential to screw over many owners anyway.

#5038 2 years ago
Quoted from Biv:

Well, with accepting this deal, only the already built machines might be "save"
There is absolutely no guarantee that they will continue to assemble the other 200 pins....so there is big potential to screw over many owners anyway.

you are wrong

#5040 2 years ago

"if DP would start a legal procedure against ARA for breach of contract, the odds that a judge will rule in favor of DP is very likely!"

Notice the lack of commitment but it's intended to get you to think, oh yea DP they're the good guys here!!! That's what they've done the whole time. They use quotes from TBL in their statements, they play up to the 'good guy' persona, and use the "We're Dutch" as an excuse out of anything.

Please can you all agree to not trust them the next time they come up with another 'good news' scenario. They've been buying time, the entire time, since Expo 2015. I hope you all get your games or money somehow, but please stop falling for what they say and take some/whatever action you can on your end.

#5041 2 years ago

As #187 I say take the deal. Even though this forum has been therapeutic at times and I have stayed pretty much on the sidelines. I would like my machine that I paid for and sooner rather than later. Although, I am thinking no matter how hard I hope later if at all seems to be the likely scenario! I am with all you other Early Achievers and hoping we all end up with a quality machine that WE PAID FOR!

#5042 2 years ago

These guys are somewhere in between rank amateurs and complete bullshitters. DP's actions and emails make it clear to anyone with business and negotiating experience that they don't know what they're doing and either getting bad advice or not listening to good advice. The most recent email stating that everyone is more interested in seeing the long term success of DP vs. getting a Lebowski in the short term is utter nonsense.

There's some slim possibility that these machines will be made someday, but it's likely to only happen if someone else is charge of the business. My deposit is with Cointaker so I'm moving on to a new pin with the deposit money. I almost did this months ago, but waited to see if there would be any positive developments.

I'm sorry for those who have prepaid and wish only good things for those investors.

#5043 2 years ago

BTW guys, I did not receive this newest newsletter. When did it drop?

#5044 2 years ago

10:04am

#5045 2 years ago

I wonder if they dropped me from the list bc I am an asshole now?

#5046 2 years ago

How did you become an asshole?

#5047 2 years ago

No pin for you! Well don't feel too bad because the way it's going there are a lot of us in your boat!

#5048 2 years ago

This whole deal with DP is a s@&t show.
When you look back now it really went south with Philgate.
Should have got out then when I had the chance.

#5049 2 years ago
Quoted from Nilroc:

How did you become an asshole?

From their POV, I might be an asshole. I was sort of making a "Walter, you're not wrong you're just an asshole" reference. Just trying to retain my sense of humor....

#5050 2 years ago

Probably the most disheartening thing is that DP is only out for themselves, not for the people they took their money from. This is about the FUTURE for them, and not about RIGHT NOW for us.

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