(Topic ID: 66097)

TFTC Woes, Help!

By Irishbastard

10 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 55 posts
  • 10 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 7 years ago by eabundy
  • Topic is favorited by 5 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

View topic image gallery

tmp_12933-20160801_103156706586102.jpg
There are 55 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 10 years ago

OK, My Tftc flaked out a month or so ago, it had been doing some weird things prior. I was downstairs one day and my wife asked if I smelled something burning, I quickly looked around to see which game had toasted now and saw Tftc's dmd was off. I opened her up and noticed a blown fuse on the PS, I forget why but I swapped in a new Rottendog PS and she fired up but the scoop coil was stuck on. So I pulled the PPB and CPU boards, I ended up replacing the following: Q5, Q4, Q3 on PPB pcb (One was replaced by accident on my part, the others tested a short on one leg); Q39, Q41, Q42, Q31, Q32, Q33, Q34; Scoop coil diode. I powered up and the scoop coil was fine, but the drop target coil locked on, replaced its diode, no change...its corresponding Tip 122 started to heat up fast. Shut down, pulled CPU pcb, everything tested GOOD, pulled PPB Q5, Q3, and Q2 all test Shorted on right leg???? I also checked everywhere for a short to ground, can't find anything.

What the hell am I missing?

Thank You in advance!

#2 10 years ago

Could be this, straight from the DE repair guide: http://techniek.flipperwinkel.nl/desega/index1.htm

Wrong PPB Relay installed on some TftC Games.
During production of Tales from the Crypt, the wrong PPB L/R select relay at K-1 was installed. This can cause solenoids to activate randomly, and flash lamps to not activate at all. The problem was the PPB's K-1 relay was installed with a 24 volt AC relay, instead of a 24 volt DC relay. The incorrect AC relay had a relay coil winding of about 2 ohms, where the correct DC version was about 650 ohms! The lack of ohms will cause the relay to burn and fail. The relay can be identified easily because it is labeled "24v AC", where the correct relay is labeled "24v DC", or the relay's winding can be measured with a DMM. Games with serial number 101664 or later have been inspected for this problem. If a 24 volt AC relay is discovered, replace it with the correct 24 volt DC relay.

#3 10 years ago

Thank You but I saw that and checked, mine has the correct DC relay..

#4 10 years ago

Anybody?

#5 10 years ago

Still at a loss

3 months later
#6 10 years ago

Ok....Just looked at this again today. F8 on PPB is blown and Q5, Q3, and Q2 are toast (short one leg), I also found a bad tranny on the cpu (forget which one but replaced it)....Before I replace the trannys that test bad on PPB and F8 and promptly blow them all again on power up, what else should I be looking at?? Coils test good along with diodes on coils..

#7 10 years ago

You should not be blowing this many transistors this quick. There is something very wrong with your power. Check that relay.

#8 10 years ago

OK...Just checked all voltages on RD PS...All close to what they are rated... Pulled PPB checked every diode, resistor, BR, etc...All checked within range (R20 (Small ceramic resistor) would not test, was all over the place), relay is DC and reads 651ohms. BUT>>>> With PPB board removed from machine, ONLY Q3 reads BAD (.185 one leg, dead short other leg), Q5 and Q2 test GOOD.... SOO... What does this mean???

#9 10 years ago

Does the game turn on? Are a bunch of coils locked on? Do you still have hot components? what is the symptom you are trying to fix?

#10 10 years ago

Game boots fine, with new fuse and replaced trannies one or two coils lock on and corresponding trannies heat up fast.

#11 10 years ago

OK.....Replaced F8 fuse and Q3 and went through pf wiring...Fixed a few possible shorts.. Game is working, but...Q39 is very hot so I shut down..

Weird...Q39 looks like its the "Knocker" which is not connected because back when I originally bought this pin the tranny for Q39 was missing and the knocker had one wire off, So I replaced the tranny and reconnected the knocker after installing a new knocker coil. The tranny then got so hot it fell out of the CPU pcb. So there is another new tranny in Q39 but the knocker is NOT connected.

#12 10 years ago

Hot generally means shorted on the transistors.

#13 10 years ago

Just going to pull that one and leave it out and see how that goes..

#14 10 years ago

Without looking at the manual, are you also checking the pre-drivers for those transistors that you are changing out? Maybe they are also bad and are causing the TIP ones to heat up and fail.

Getting ready to start on my own gremlins with a TFTC.

Good Luck.

#15 10 years ago

Yup, checked all predrivers and they were in spec Thank You, and good luck! I did repair my Space Shuttle this week that has been down since July....baby steps

#16 10 years ago

OK...I think I figured something out. The drop target reset mech gets stuck down after it resets, which frys Q5 Tip36c a d locks the shooter coil on. I found a small c-clip missing on the smaller shaft which allowed it to slide. I replaced the clip and the coil sleeve. Replaced Q5 and went through coil test.....right after drop target coil test I heard the shooter coil lock on...shut down and found the dam drop target reset rail stuck again and Q5 blew....wtf, really...

Adjusted the drop target reset bar, no longer binds. Replaced Q5 AGAIN..replaced coil sleeve on shooter as well. Powered up, went through all coils (skipping drop targets)...All perfect. Went back to drop target...As soon as it tests (and did not bind up) shooter coil locks on and Q freakin 5 blows.... Soooo.....Why is the drop target coil doing this?? The original issue was caused by the drop target or shooter I believe.

#17 10 years ago

Anyone have any ideas?

#18 10 years ago

What was the resistance of the coils in question when you tested them? When you say "shooter coil", you meant shooter lane coil correct?

#19 10 years ago

From the repair guides:

"When Replacing Bad Driver Transistors... (a repeat warning!)
ALWAYS check the coil mounted diode too! Often the coil mounted diode will break, causing the driving transitor to fail. If the diode is not replaced also, the driving transistor will fail again and again. This is often overlooked in DataEast/Sega games." (make sure it is there, correctly oriented - before proceeding)

>Q2/Q8, Q3/Q9, Q4/Q10, Q5/Q11: special coil (switched solenoid) drivers. Connects to chip 12A (7402). On CPU revision 1 or 2, the logic ends there. On CPU revision 3, chip 12A (7402) connects to chip 11C (7407), and then to PIA 8H or 9B or 11D (6821). On all revisions, resistor network RA24 (4.7k x 8), capacitors C40-C45 (.1 mfd), and diodes D1-D6 (1N5234) are used and can fail (causing the affected coil to lock on).

>On games Back to the Future and later, there is a potential problem with this backwards compatibility. The reflexive circuitry can be damaged, and cause the special coils to lock on. This can be very frustrating. For example, say a pop bumper coil locks on immediately when the game is powered on. After replacing its associated TIP122 transistor and the 2N4401 pre-driver transistor, and checking the coil's diode, the coil is still locked on! So go back a step further, and replace the 7402 chip at location 12A or 12B. And still the coil is locked on. Finally go all the way back, and replace the 6821 PIA chip at location 8H or 9B. Yet still the coil is locked on!

The problem could be in the parallel, but unused, reflexive circuit! If just one of the small capacitors at locations C40 to C45 (.1 mfd) shorts, its associated coil can lock on. This is a very common, but confusing problem. Also, one of the diodes at locations D1 to D6 (1N5234), or the resistor pack at R24 (4.7k xcan short (less likely, but still worth checking). In CPU Revision 3 games, these components are unused, but they can still become damaged!

It is easy to determine which circuit a game is using. If connector CN18 (upper right hand corner as facing the CPU board) has a plug connector attached, the game is using the older "reflexive" special coil circuit. No connector at location CN18 means the game is a CPU Revision 3 or later machine.

#20 10 years ago
Quoted from snyper2099:

What was the resistance of the coils in question when you tested them? When you say "shooter coil", you meant shooter lane coil correct?

Shooter lane coil, yes...Coils resistance tests fine...replaced coil diodes (in correct orientation).... Its just weird that everything seems fine until the drop target coil fires, then BAM, shooter locked on and Q5 smoked... Will look into that guide info again.. Thanks guys!

#21 10 years ago

I know you are ignoring my coil question but let's move past that point. I am still willing to help you. When you test a predriver OR a main tip102 transistor, they quite often test good, but are in fact bad. If you can't figure out this problem, I would replace all the pre-drive transistors and main drive transistors in the questionable circuits, even if they are testing as good. Shooter lane, drop targets, as well as the others (scoop, ect, ect). Transistors are cheap and you should be replacing all pre-drivers in any circuit that had any component(s) fail as a steadfast rule.

I can tell you that I have personally found over 100 transistors that tested good but were toast. I saved some if you want to see a few for reference/testing purposes.

#22 10 years ago
Quoted from snyper2099:

I know you are ignoring my coil question but let's move past that point. I am still willing to help you. When you test a predriver OR a main tip102 transistor, they quite often test good, but are in fact bad. If you can't figure out this problem, I would replace all the pre-drive transistors and main drive transistors in the questionable circuits, even if they are testing as good. Shooter lane, drop targets, as well as the others (scoop, ect, ect). Transistors are cheap and you should be replacing all pre-drivers in any circuit that had any component(s) fail as a steadfast rule.
I can tell you that I have personally found over 100 transistors that tested good but were toast. I saved some if you want to see a few for reference/testing purposes.

Um...I apologize if you thought I was "ignoring" your coil question, I was not. I read it as I was brushing my teeth this am and read it as; "Did the coils test bad?".... My fault, no intentional "ignoring" meant. So No, they were not questionable, I'm just checking every freakin part involved to make sure its not something stupid. I actually replaced most of the driver, predriver, etc as I figured maybe one was testing good but was really bad. I'm going to run through that guide info and go from there. Then after replacing ( "shotgunning" at this point) more components and watching the coil lock on again, swear profusely, maybe throw some stuff, then take up collecting small tea cups from the Elizabethan era .

I do appreciate you help, and sorry again for the misunderstanding!

#23 10 years ago
Quoted from Irishbastard:

Then after replacing ( "shotgunning" at this point) more components and watching the coil lock on again, swear profusely, maybe throw some stuff, then take up collecting small tea cups from the Elizabethan era .

You know, if you don't fix this thing, you are going to have to put it up for sale with the statement "It's probably just a fuse"

(now ducking from flying tea cups)

#24 10 years ago

This won't help with your short, but my drop target mech is also missing one of the clips on the small shaft. After replacing a drop target, I'm guessing the tech left it off so it would be easier to replace the next broken drop target (which it is). What he did to keep the small shaft from sliding was to wrap a zip tie around the shaft on the end with the missing clip and looped it around the drop target frame, pulling it tight . This does keep the small shaft from moving--so far I don't see any down side to this mod. It sure is easier to cut the zip tie than to try and remove and replace that tiny clip.

#25 10 years ago
Quoted from wayout440:

You know, if you don't fix this thing, you are going to have to put it up for sale with the statement "It's probably just a fuse"
(now ducking from flying tea cups)

Hahaha...Good idea, lol

Quoted from Billy16:

This won't help with your short, but my drop target mech is also missing one of the clips on the small shaft. After replacing a drop target, I'm guessing the tech left it off so it would be easier to replace the next broken drop target (which it is). What he did to keep the small shaft from sliding was to wrap a zip tie around the shaft on the end with the missing clip and looped it around the drop target frame, pulling it tight . This does keep the small shaft from moving--so far I don't see any down side to this mod. It sure is easier to cut the zip tie than to try and remove and replace that tiny clip.

Thanks, but I actually salvaged a new clip from a spare bill transporter from a slot machine.

5 months later
#26 9 years ago

Ok....this is still collecting dust, want to play so Tftc sooo...where should I start on this cursed machine?

#27 9 years ago

At this point it looks to be an IC at fault that controls multiple things...

Some more things to look at...

Whenever multiple things are going wacky in a pin, the similar IC controlling those things will likely be the blame.

In your case it would likely be the 7407ic chip directly to the left of the "Special Ciol Drive" section of the MPU in the schematic section of the TFTC manual available on ipdb.org. Or, it could also be a shorted closed resistor in that same circuit...

also...
THIS thread:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/tftc-3-solenoids-not-firing

suggests your problem could be a faulty plug connection. Very high resistance could build up heat when a coil is fired and blow a fuse or other components causing your symptoms.

#28 9 years ago
Quoted from Irishbastard:

Ok....this is still collecting dust, want to play so Tftc sooo...where should I start on this cursed machine?

This is a very "generalized" view of how I would approach it, breaking the system down and systematically testing and repairing everything.

Read first: http://techniek.flipperwinkel.nl/desega/index1.htm and refer to it often.

Disconnect everything from every board, disconnect every wiring harness except input power to the power supply board. Thoroughly test power supply board and fuses.
Reconnect input power harnesses to CPU board.
Reinstall displays, test displays
Test CPU board switch interpretation. Reconnect playfield switch lines to CPU board and verify interpretation.
Test solenoid outputs, then reconnect solenoid outputs one at a time, each time testing for proper operation.
Reinstall lamp matrix, test lamp matrix.
Reinstall sound system, test sound system

#29 9 years ago

Thanks guys, going to dig back into this, hope I don't blow days/weeks/months again on it!

5 months later
#30 9 years ago

OK, just dove back into this pig.... Sooo, Q2, Q3, and Q5 on PPB pcb test bad, and fuse F8 is blown. Pulled all coil connectors from cpu, powered up. Game powers up, boots fine. Check all voltages, Good...Power down game. Pull J8 plug on PPB pcb, Q2 and Q3 test Good! Plug J8 back in and desolder Ball Launch coil, Q2 and Q3 test GOOD (Q5 is just toast I think).....Sooo, I pull the diode off the coil, replace it..nope, try it reversed..nope... Coil tests good. All Tip's test Good on cpu with quick test.

So, do I have a short?? I followed the wires from that coil as far as I can and see nothing.

#31 9 years ago

Just for kicks have you tried a different power supply? You stated you first swapped out the power supply upon your first failure and have had trouble ever since. It's probably unlikely but maybe the power supply is not working correctly under load.

1. Swap in a different known good power supply in there
2. I would replace the transistors and mini transistors in question
3. Cut the power wires to the coils that are associated with the blown out transistors.
4. Test coil ohms with wires cut, and diodes on the coils
5. Power up the game with those solenoids removed and see if anything blows.
6. Hopefully everything is still ok at this point, and then reconnect one solenoid coil at a time and power up after each one and test.

1 month later
#32 9 years ago

Well...Finally got to this...Swapped out RD PS with original (replaced fuses on Original PS), replaced Q5 on PPB, pulled cpu and checked all coil trannys and related 7408's, tested good. Disconnected drop target and shooter coils...Fired her up and heard another coil lock, found coil for hole behind tombstone locked (VUK), checked coil value and found 2.4 ohms (090-5023-00 coil), tested coil diode..good. Game plays fine now with that coil out. I have nothing to compare that coil reading to, so am assuming its out of value and bad (Coil wrapper did fall off in my hand). Ordered new coil, will hope it was that and I just missed it like ann idiot this whole time.....Fingers crossed.

Thanks again Eric!

Just found that coil should be 2.2ohms...Hmmm, well, will swap it out and see when the new one arrives, will prob still be locked.

#33 9 years ago

Check the transistor for that coil before installing the new one. I think you are on the right track.

#34 9 years ago

New coil installed, both trannys for said coil replaced.....Power up....Left VUK locks on....F this F'n pin!

#35 9 years ago

Does the transistor test bad after the coil locks on? You HAVE to have a short in that circuit. For fun (not really fun), remove the connector for that coil off the driver board. Then do a test wire for just that coil to see if it works ok. I'm fairly sure you have somebad wiring either on the connector, the pins on the driver, possibly a jumped solder pad at the transistor for that coil.

Side note, possibly easier. Have you swapped in a different main board and or PPB board that is known good? At least then you can chase it backwards from there. Hopefully it tests fine with different boards. If not then that tells me it's a wiring issue / short.

Also have you retested the voltages at the coil and at all the test points? Could you have an over voltage situation?

Any acid damage to your main board? So sorry to hear you are having so much trouble with it.

7 months later
#36 8 years ago

This has been solved.....

Dropped this off with an expert. Appears that I had repaired the original issue and in doing so blew out trace with my crappy solder sucker and never noticed, so it was doomed after that point. A new set of eyes solved the issue. A public Thank You to Allan Davidson!

Case Closed

1 week later
#37 8 years ago
Quoted from eabundy:

Does the transistor test bad after the coil locks on? You HAVE to have a short in that circuit. For fun (not really fun), remove the connector for that coil off the driver board. Then do a test wire for just that coil to see if it works ok. I'm fairly sure you have some bad wiring either on the connector, the pins on the driver, possibly a jumped solder pad at the transistor for that coil.

Glad I was correct with the jumped solder pad on the driver Congrats on the fix.

#38 8 years ago
Quoted from Irishbastard:

This has been solved.....
Dropped this off with an expert. Appears that I had repaired the original issue and in doing so blew out trace with my crappy solder sucker and never noticed, so it was doomed after that point. A new set of eyes solved the issue. A public Thank You to Allan Davidson!
Case Closed

Allen and Eric both great guys and repair techs.

#39 8 years ago
Quoted from eabundy:

Glad I was correct with the jumped solder pad on the driver Congrats on the fix.

Actually Eric it was missing trace, a new trace line was installed for the one I damaged. The coil for the front Vuk was also replaced with a less strong one in order to reduce a reoccurrence of the original issue. I am also planning on purchasing a desolder station in order to avoid a future incident.
Thanks

8 months later
#40 7 years ago

Ok.....Sooooo, my TFTC has been working fine since it was repaired approx 9 months ago. A few weeks ago my wife was in the basement with the games on and she smelled burning....So low and behold, it was TFTC... (Just had lighting on power up)

Found a melted shooter coil, blow F8 and F5 fuses and the PS was reading less than 2v on +5v and +12v and -24v on the -12v. Replaced PS with a RD and it powered up fine. Just replaced the coil and shooter coil locks on. Should I dig into this again and drop the dam thing off at AD's house again?

#41 7 years ago
Quoted from Irishbastard:

Ok.....Sooooo, my TFTC has been working fine since it was repaired approx 9 months ago. A few weeks ago my wife was in the basement with the games on and she smelled burning....So low and behold, it was TFTC... (Just had lighting on power up)
Found a melted shooter coil, blow F8 and F5 fuses and the PS was reading less than 2v on +5v and +12v and -24v on the -12v. Replaced PS with a RD and it powered up fine. Just replaced the coil and shooter coil locks on. Should I dig into this again and drop the dam thing off at AD's house again?

Right on power up the coil locks on, or after it boots?

#42 7 years ago
Quoted from thedefog:

Right on power up the coil locks on, or after it boots?

Instantly on power up

#43 7 years ago

Blown transistor, easy fix.

#44 7 years ago
Quoted from eabundy:

Blown transistor, easy fix.

What he said. Check the Pre-Driver as well. They often go in a pair.

#45 7 years ago
Quoted from eabundy:

Blown transistor, easy fix.

That's what I would assume in this situation, but her and I have a past.... Starting to feel like Groundhog Day to me..

#46 7 years ago
Quoted from Irishbastard:

That's what I would assume in this situation, but her and I have a past.... Starting to feel like Groundhog Day to me..

You probably had a weak power supply, got some sort of voltage spike and that took it out. Most likely same cause of all the problems you had earlier. Replacing the power supply should help.

#47 7 years ago
Quoted from eabundy:

You probably had a weak power supply, got some sort of voltage spike and that took it out. Most likely same cause of all the problems you had earlier. Replacing the power supply should help.

Sounds like that would make sense.. Guess it did not get a good rebuild in 07' lol

tmp_12933-20160801_103156706586102.jpgtmp_12933-20160801_103156706586102.jpg

#48 7 years ago
Quoted from Irishbastard:

Sounds like that would make sense.. Guess it did not get a good rebuild in 07' lol

A blown transistor isn't necessarily indicative of a bad PSU. It could be a lot of things. They burn up for lots of fun reasons. Anything that'll cause a coil to lock up will do it. Those PSUs are fairly robust, and if it was rebuilt recently with new caps and all, it should be fine still.

#49 7 years ago

Ok, pulled board, tested Q44 along with Q36 (shooter coil trannys), then both rows of transistors and drivers... All are in spec, all reading similar. Also put one lead to tab of each tranny and ground, no shorts..

Found bad Q5 on PPB, replaced

Played two games, "appears" fine

#50 7 years ago
Quoted from Irishbastard:

Ok, pulled board, tested Q44 along with Q36 (shooter coil trannys), then both rows of transistors and drivers... All are in spec, all reading similar. Also put one lead to tab of each tranny and ground, no shorts..
Found bad Q5 on PPB, replaced
Played two games, "appears" fine

Awesome!

Promoted items from Pinside Marketplace and Pinside Shops!
$ 12.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
UpKick Pinball
 
$ 15.00
Playfield - Decals
Metal-Mods
 
$ 345.00
Cabinet - Shooter Rods
Pinball Haus
 
$ 35.00
Cabinet - Other
Rocket City Pinball
 
4,850
Machine - For Sale
Lake Elsinore, CA
$ 18.95
$ 15.00
$ 64.00
From: $ 209.00
$ 18.00
Lighting - Led
Mitchell Lighting
 
From: $ 15.00
Playfield - Plastics
Mad Czar Games
 
$ 18.95
$ 18.95
From: $ 159.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Sparky Pinball
 
From: $ 9.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
UpKick Pinball
 
From: $ 9.99
Eproms
Matt's Basement Arcade
 
$ 16.00
Boards
Lermods
 
$ 18.95
$ 30.00
Playfield - Other
YouBentMyWookie
 
$ 19.95
Lighting - Led
Mitchell Lighting
 
From: $ 1.00
Boards
Slap Save Creations
 
$ 12.00
Tools
Nezzy's Pinball Prints
 
$ 15.00
Playfield - Decals
Metal-Mods
 
$ 1.29
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Daddio's 3D Printed Mods
 
£ 32.00
Lighting - Led
PinballToys
 
There are 55 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.

Reply

Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

Donate to Pinside

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/tftc-woes-help and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.