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(Topic ID: 277112)

TEX OP - TEN UP Gottlieb


By nuvell

40 days ago



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  • 12 posts
  • 4 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 35 days ago by Dono
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    Gottlieb Score Motor 2 (resized).jpg
    1599932428933-231882130 (resized).jpg
    King Pin Score Motor (resized).jpg
    King Pin O relay (resized).jpg
    King Pin eject holes (resized).jpg

    #1 40 days ago

    Goodmorning everyone. I have an Italian copy of TEN UP Gottlieb pinball machine TEX OP. It is for one player only (add a ball). Unfortunately it doesn't have a schematic but the relays and connections are very, very similar to the TEN UP. In fact the relays that give me the problems are exactly in sequence like those of the TEN UP.
    While you are playing, sometimes, when the holes at the top (hole relay) are activated the motor makes one revolution, sometimes continues with the loop (ta ta ta ta ta) or makes one more revolution sometimes 3 sometimes 5 and most of the time nothing.

    This loop with the "ta ta ta ta ta" does it in these other three cases:

    1) when the ball return relay is activated
    2) when the wow relay is activated
    3) when the sequence completed control relay is activated

    Cleaned and adjusted all engine contacts but without definitive results or improved but not resolved.

    Are there any other contacts affected besides the motor and its relays?

    I attach the link of the video so as to give a better idea.

    (sorry for the google translation ....)

    #2 39 days ago

    Buongiorno. This game is a version of King Pin. I have a King Pin schematic so I'll used that as the basis for my answers.

    The eject holes at the top of the playfield each have two switches under them. When the ball drops into either hole both switches under the hole should close. One switch under each hole should activate either the B/500 point or C/5000 point relay. The other switch should activate the I/Hole relay.

    The B and C relays (and several other relays as you have observed) cause the Score Motor to turn. The motor should turn 1/3 of a turn and the "ta ta ta ta ta" you hear is the lower cam on the score motor opening and closing stacks of switches 5 times. One of those switches should add either 500 or 5000 points to the score. Near the end of the 1/3 score motor turn another switch on the score motor should close briefly which sends a pulse through a switch on the I/Hole relay (which should also be closed) to activate both hole eject solenoids.

    After 1/3 of a turn the B or C relay and the I relay should deactivate, the ball should be kicked out and the motor should stop turning.

    /Mark

    #3 39 days ago
    Quoted from MarkG:

    Buongiorno. This game is a version of King Pin. I have a King Pin schematic so I'll used that as the basis for my answers.
    The eject holes at the top of the playfield each have two switches under them. When the ball drops into either hole both switches under the hole should close. One switch under each hole should activate either the B/500 point or C/5000 point relay. The other switch should activate the I/Hole relay.
    The B and C relays (and several other relays as you have observed) cause the Score Motor to turn. The motor should turn 1/3 of a turn and the "ta ta ta ta ta" you hear is the lower cam on the score motor opening and closing stacks of switches 5 times. One of those switches should add either 500 or 5000 points to the score. Near the end of the 1/3 score motor turn another switch on the score motor should close briefly which sends a pulse through a switch on the I/Hole relay (which should also be closed) to activate both hole eject solenoids.
    After 1/3 of a turn the B or C relay and the I relay should deactivate, the ball should be kicked out and the motor should stop turning.
    /Mark

    That's right, all right in the description he kindly gave me.
    Now I wonder (I don't know if he saw the video) all the tests I did, they were on the other three relays that give problems (return relay - wow relay - sequence completed control relay) but these complete an operation (ejection of the ball in the launch channel - add a ball - reset targets) but do not give scores.
    This is why I don't understand where the defect could be, especially in my case that the connections have a logic perhaps equal to the king Pin but with different wire colors ...
    What can be on the King Pin that contact you referred to me that is activated for a moment and basically stops the engine?
    I hope I have explained. Thanks Marco

    #4 39 days ago

    The Score Motor can be started by many relays but not all of them require that points be added to the score. The eject holes (on King Pin) however should award points:
    King Pin eject holes (resized).jpg
    The switches under the Eject Holes (in red) should activate either the B/500 point or C/5000 point relay. They in turn will start the Score Motor. As the Score Motor turns the Motor 1A switch (in red) will close 5 times to generate 5 pulses. Those pulses will get to either the L/1000 point or M/100 point relay depending on the state of the switches (in red) mounted to the B and C relays.

    If the eject holes never score 500 or 5000 points the culprit is likely the Motor 1A switch (in red).

    #5 39 days ago
    Quoted from MarkG:

    The Score Motor can be started by many relays but not all of them require that points be added to the score. The eject holes (on King Pin) however should award points:
    [quoted image]
    The switches under the Eject Holes (in red) should activate either the B/500 point or C/5000 point relay. They in turn will start the Score Motor. As the Score Motor turns the Motor 1A switch (in red) will close 5 times to generate 5 pulses. Those pulses will get to either the L/1000 point or M/100 point relay depending on the state of the switches (in red) mounted to the B and C relays.
    If the eject holes never score 500 or 5000 points the culprit is likely the Motor 1A switch (in red).

    Thanks for the suggestion but the contact 1A is well adjusted and cleaned, so much so that the 500 or 5000 points marks them perfectly, always. Unfortunately it is the random spins (1 more or 2 or 3 more or none) that when he decides he does them. In fact, in particular on the ball return relay, operating it by hand causes the defect. Putting a piece of paper on the motor contact (4C for me) no longer does the defect but, obviously, the ball return relay does not trip.

    #6 38 days ago

    I may have misunderstood the issue. If the extra Score Motor turns are the concern there are a few things that could cause this. Typically when the Score Motor runs more than it should it's because the relay that closed a switch that sent power to the motor has not released and allowed the switch to reopen. So for example if the ball in the outhole isn't kicked to the shooter lane on the first try for some reason and lands back in the outhole the motor will try again (by design) until it is successful.

    You've identified a few relays that occasionally get the motor to run more than 1/3 of a turn. Do those relays relax at the end of the first 1/3 turn as they should or do they remain active through the extra motor turns? Many relays should remain active through the first 1/3 turn of the motor and relax when a normally closed switch at motor position 2B opens (in red below) at the end of the 1/3 cycle. If your relays are staying active through the extra turns it may be that their 2B switch isn't opening reliably. Some relays share motor 2B switches, others have their own 2B switch like the O/Ball Return relay shown here.
    King Pin O relay (resized).jpg
    Another possibility is that the motor overruns on its own because its own index switch, typically at 1C as shown in red below, isn't opening reliably, or early enough to stop the motor before inertia carries it forward enough to close the 1C switch again. This problem would be independent of whatever relay started the motor. If you gently push the motor forward manually it should start running once the 1C switch closes and stop after 1/3 cycle when it opens again. If your motor always stops after a single 1/3 turn after you start it manually the 1C switch is probably ok.
    King Pin Score Motor (resized).jpg

    #7 38 days ago
    Quoted from MarkG:

    I may have misunderstood the issue. If the extra Score Motor turns are the concern there are a few things that could cause this. Typically when the Score Motor runs more than it should it's because the relay that closed a switch that sent power to the motor has not released and allowed the switch to reopen. So for example if the ball in the outhole isn't kicked to the shooter lane on the first try for some reason and lands back in the outhole the motor will try again (by design) until it is successful.
    You've identified a few relays that occasionally get the motor to run more than 1/3 of a turn. Do those relays relax at the end of the first 1/3 turn as they should or do they remain active through the extra motor turns? Many relays should remain active through the first 1/3 turn of the motor and relax when a normally closed switch at motor position 2B opens (in red below) at the end of the 1/3 cycle. If your relays are staying active through the extra turns it may be that their 2B switch isn't opening reliably. Some relays share motor 2B switches, others have their own 2B switch like the O/Ball Return relay shown here.
    [quoted image]
    Another possibility is that the motor overruns on its own because its own index switch, typically at 1C as shown in red below, isn't opening reliably, or early enough to stop the motor before inertia carries it forward enough to close the 1C switch again. This problem would be independent of whatever relay started the motor. If you gently push the motor forward manually it should start running once the 1C switch closes and stop after 1/3 cycle when it opens again. If your motor always stops after a single 1/3 turn after you start it manually the 1C switch is probably ok.
    [quoted image]

    Thank you.
    Contact 1C should not be. In fact, turning the engine gently by hand ALWAYS only makes a third of a turn.
    At this point I would check the 2B.
    Unfortunately, I've had pinball since February and I'm not really a good repairman.
    How do I find the 2B?
    I saw that there are 5 positions in the engine (1 - 2 - 3 - 3 1/2 - 4)
    In my case there is only 1 - 2 - 4
    The letter indicates the position of the blade group (contacts) starting from the bottom A, then B and so on.
    So for example contact 2B you mean the 2nd position and therefore the B for the second pair of blades of the position 2?
    I am attaching the photo of my engine
    Thanks Marco

    1599932428933-231882130 (resized).jpg
    #8 37 days ago

    The diagrams on the schematic only tell you where each switch stack is:
    Gottlieb Score Motor 2 (resized).jpg
    These diagrams do not tell you how many switches there are in each switch stack nor how they are used. Normally you would look for the wire colors specified on the schematic for the switch you're looking for. So for the motor 2B switch shown in reply #6 above for example you would look for the normally closed switch in the 2B stack that connects a green-black wire to a maroon-white wire. Without the schematic you may not be able to identify exactly the switch you're looking for so you could clean and examine all of the switches in the 2B stack instead.

    But before you go looking for motor 2B switches, just observe the three relays you suspect are causing the problems. Do they release after 1/3 of a motor turn or, do they stay active while the motor is turning, or do they relax and then reactivate as the motor is turning?

    #9 37 days ago
    Quoted from MarkG:

    The diagrams on the schematic only tell you where each switch stack is:
    [quoted image]
    These diagrams do not tell you how many switches there are in each switch stack nor how they are used. Normally you would look for the wire colors specified on the schematic for the switch you're looking for. So for the motor 2B switch shown in reply #6 above for example you would look for the normally closed switch in the 2B stack that connects a green-black wire to a maroon-white wire. Without the schematic you may not be able to identify exactly the switch you're looking for so you could clean and examine all of the switches in the 2B stack instead.
    But before you go looking for motor 2B switches, just observe the three relays you suspect are causing the problems. Do they release after 1/3 of a motor turn or, do they stay active while the motor is turning, or do they relax and then reactivate as the motor is turning?

    Thanks, now the question of the engine is much clearer.

    However I believe (I hope) to have solved.
    The problems were two of which one created by me.
    The main one was the contact of the ball return kicker, in fact the pivot of the movement had loosened so much that many times, with the game it had, it touched the contact (as if the ball touched it), so the relay was activated several times or once only ...
    With this problem not seen, looking for other solutions, I had noticed (my mistake) that with the engine at rest, the natural play of the switches in position 4C tried by hand, you could see an excursion of that row of switches that worried me ( seemed to touch).
    In reality they are activated only with the engine running ....
    Then I had pushed them away a little, just enough unfortunately that they didn't work as they should.
    I gave it back a distance of 1/2 millimeter and everything seems to be going.
    On the 4C line there are precisely the 3 relays involved
    (return relay - wow relay - sequence completed control relay).
    Thanks for your patience.
    Marco

    #10 37 days ago

    Check to make sure that the brass washer on each of the relays which pull in and start the motor is properly located. This washer should be located between the base of the relay coil, and the relay frame. If it's missing or improperly placed (usually outside of the relay frame), the relay can stick, which will mimic the energized state even when the power to the coil is turned off.

    #11 37 days ago
    Quoted from jrpinball:

    Check to make sure that the brass washer on each of the relays which pull in and start the motor is properly located. This washer should be located between the base of the relay coil, and the relay frame. If it's missing or improperly placed (usually outside of the relay frame), the relay can stick, which will mimic the energized state even when the power to the coil is turned off.

    Thanks very much

    #12 35 days ago

    Right on JR... learned this the hard way many moons ago.

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