(Topic ID: 223385)

Test Prox senor board (A-16534)

By ncsujeff

5 years ago


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#1 5 years ago

Switch 26 is not working on my TZ. The LED on the Prox senor board (A-16534) comes on when I place a metal against the prox switch, but the 26 switch does not register. I guess it could also be wiring from A-16534 to the CPU or the CPU. It has a rottendog CPU.

I did have J206/J208 switched with J207/J209 on the CPU. I believe I did this when routing speaker wire. Not sure if that created the issue.

#2 5 years ago
Quoted from ncsujeff:

I did have J206/J208 switched with J207/J209 on the CPU. I believe I did this when routing speaker wire. Not sure if that created the issue.

Those wouldn't matter.

LTG : )

#3 5 years ago

Original small boards and eddy sensor in your game ?

If so did you try reseating all the small connectors a couple times ? If that cures it, consider removing the connectors and soldering the wires directly to the board.

LTG : )

#4 5 years ago

It does have the original boards. I’ll try resetting again. The connections between the sensor and the board have to be good as the LED works.

I have held a ball against the sensor and wiggled the 4 wire connecter to the board and the switch still does not regester.

#5 5 years ago

How do I test if the board is good?

#6 5 years ago
Quoted from ncsujeff:

How do I test if the board is good?

I test them with a logic probe / pulser. The parts on this board that aren't associated with the actual detection portion rarely fail; if I had to take a stab in the dark on whats wrong, I would say your that either you column pulse isn't getting to the board, or the row pulse isn't getting to the CPU.

The easiest way to check them is with a logic probe,
1) are you getting your low column pulse in?
2) is the row being pulled low when the column goes low?

My testing setup, just cause I like posting pictures. Not the same sensor, but the circuitry is similar enough. When the LED is lit, the row output should go low whenever the column in is low.
IMG_2280b (resized).jpgIMG_2280b (resized).jpg

#7 5 years ago

Thanks. Will be tomorrow before I can test. Not sure how I will get 12 volts to it. Can I test with a logic probe on the machine?

Thanks for the other advice as well. I guess with the other two theories those would be related to connection or writing issues.

#8 5 years ago
Quoted from ncsujeff:

Can I test with a logic probe on the machine?

Yep, just connect it to 12V and probe the column pulse on U2-4, D2, or J1-3. The red and black mini-grabber probes in the picture above is how I typically pull power for my logic probe. I just connect the mini grabber probes to my meter and across the input power capacitor then connect the logic probe to the meter. These are similar to the ones I am using: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002JJU3C/ref=od_aui_detailpages00

#9 5 years ago

If you do find that the column pulses low and the row at U2-5 or J1-4 never goes low (assuming all other row6 switches are open), then the optocoupler is probably bad; but just like LTG, I'm still thinking its a connection issue.

#10 5 years ago

Thanks guys.

#11 5 years ago

This is only my second time using a logic probe and it has been a year.

Probe is set on TTL/Pulse. Tested with everything hooked up to the game. The Connector was in J1 of the Prox board.

No Ball at Prox Ball at Prox
J1-4 HI HI
J1-3 HI HI
U2-5 LOW HI
U2-4 HI HI
D2 (J1 side) HI HI
D2 (U2 side) LOW HI

Not sure exactly what this means. There are changes on the Prox board when the prox is sensing metal, but no changes on the output of J1.

#12 5 years ago

Reformatted ...

This is only my second time using a logic probe and it has been a year.

Probe is set on TTL/Pulse. Tested with everything hooked up to the game. The Connector was in J1 of the Prox board.

No Ball at Prox/Ball at Prox
J1-4 HI/HI
J1-3 HI/HI
U2-5 LOW/HI
U2-4 HI/HI
D2 (J1 side) HI/HI
D2 (U2 side) LOW/HI

Not sure exactly what this means. There are changes on the Prox board when the prox is sensing metal, but no changes on the output of J1.

#13 5 years ago
Quoted from ncsujeff:

Reformatted ...

This is only my second time using a logic probe and it has been a year.

Probe is set on TTL/Pulse. Tested with everything hooked up to the game. The Connector was in J1 of the Prox board.

Try switching your probe from TTL to CMOS and retest.

Typically you will use the TTL setting for 5 volt circuits and CMOS settings for circuits that operate at 5-15V, since the switch matrix is a 12V circuit you need to set your probe to CMOS in order to obtain the proper results. I personally forget which is which, so I use an auto detecting logic probe that automatically adjusts based on the voltage level you are using to power the probe

#14 5 years ago

Same resutls

#15 5 years ago

EDITED: 5:09PM CDT

Quoted from ncsujeff:

J1-4 HI/HI
J1-3 HI/HI
U2-5 LOW/HI

Perform a resistance check between J1-4 and U2-5 as there is no reason for these points to have different values, for all practical purposes, they are the same point-of-test. If there is an error in this schematic, I will be unable to assist further.
pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png

EDIT: According to your results checking J1-3, you have no column pulse, and show no changing value at U2-4, according to this information, you are missing your low going column pulse into the board. Without this pulse it doesnt matter what this board does, the row will remain high.

#16 5 years ago

451 Kohms. Not 100% sure I have the chip numbers correct. See attached photo.

IMG_6231 (resized).JPGIMG_6231 (resized).JPG
#17 5 years ago

Edited to include J1 numbering

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#18 5 years ago

Sorry man. Let me get the correct data. Checking now.

#19 5 years ago

no worries

#20 5 years ago

Corrected ...

No Ball at Prox/Ball at Prox
J1-4 HI/HI
J1-3 HI/HI
U2-5 HI/HI
U2-4 LOW/HI
D2 (J1 side) LOW/HI
D2 (U2 side) LOW/HI

#21 5 years ago

I at least owe you a beer

#22 5 years ago
Quoted from ncsujeff:

Corrected ...

No Ball at Prox/Ball at Prox
J1-4 HI/HI
J1-3 HI/HI
U2-5 HI/HI
U2-4 LOW/HI
D2 (J1 side) LOW/HI
D2 (U2 side) LOW/HI

Hmmm...there is some things that are odd here, specifically J1-3 which is your incoming column 2 pulse, this should be high most of the time and pulse low, if this doesn't happen the circuit cant operate properly. Are you comfortable momentary hitting the anode of D2 (U2 side) to ground? this would simulate a low going column2 pulse and if your board is working will either cause a closure of switch 26 or possible a ground short of row 6. If nothing happens U2 is likely bad. If you see the state change, you have a broken column 2 connection to your board. All of this is assuming that switch 26 is the only switch not working.

#23 5 years ago

Nothing happened when I grounded the U2 side of D2

#24 5 years ago

I confirmed earlier I have working switches in the same row and column.

#25 5 years ago

When you say "J1-3 ... should be high most of the time and pulse low"? You mean it should be high when there is no metal in front of the prox and low when there is metal? Or vise versa?

#26 5 years ago

It shouldn't matter, J1-3 is your column pulse from the CPU, it shouldn't be effected by the state of the sensor.

#27 5 years ago

Your blocking diode D2 is there to prevent the sensor from interfering with this pulse, similar to how the diodes across switches work.

#28 5 years ago
Quoted from ncsujeff:

Nothing happened when I grounded the U2 side of D2

This should have driven row 6 low IF the sensor was detecting an object and the light was on.

#29 5 years ago

Tried with the prox sensing metal as well. The game does not register the switch closing if I ground. Any other ideas? Replace U2 or the board? If there was a bad connection at J1-4 or J1-3, would I read nothing with the probe there? No high or low?

#30 5 years ago
Quoted from ncsujeff:

If there was a bad connection at J1-4 or J1-3, would I read nothing with the probe there? No high or low?

This is a grey area as these IC's are not designed to operate with an open input, if you had an open at J-3 I cant say with any certainty what you will read at that point.

Quoted from ncsujeff:

Tried with the prox sensing metal as well. The game does not register the switch closing if I ground. Any other ideas?

I do have other ideas, if you put a ground potential on U-2, this could carry through the connection at J1 and set row 6 to ground, you should see this as a ground short on row6, alternatively you can measure the resistance between U2-6 and J208-7 or J209-7 on the MPU board and you should have nearly no resistance as they should be connected. If you read more than a couple ohms here, you have a break in the connection.

You can do the same for your column pulse wiring, you should have almost no resistance between diode D2 (J1 side) and its column 2 origin point on the MPU at J206-2 or 207-2 as electrically these are the same connection. If you read more than a couple ohms here, you have a break in the connection.

If both of these check out you have a bad U2. This is a very cheap part and replaceable; however it requires the right equipment and high soldering proficiency to replace without damaging the board.

pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png
#31 5 years ago

No breaks between J1-3/J206-2 and J1-4/J208-7.

There was no continuity between U2-6 and J208-7. Did you mean U2-5 and J208-7? There was no resistance there.

Replace U2 or the board?

#32 5 years ago
Quoted from ncsujeff:

Did you mean U2-5 and J208-7? There was no resistance there.

I did.

Quoted from ncsujeff:

Replace U2 or the board?

Maybe U2 is bad, maybe I'm missing something but the thing that's nagging at me is earlier I had you ground U2-5, if you have a good connection back to the MPU this would drive all switches in row 6 low, these ALL should have registered as closed, but you didn't see any switch closures or ground fault; this tells me that no matter what state U2 is in, its not going to be able to close switch 26. I must be missing something, but I'm not sure what.

If you have a 4N35 laying around go ahead and replace it.

If you have a chance, try your logic probe on J206 (12V logic) this is the same signal you should have seen on J1-3 ... it also bothers me that you didnt see a negative going pulse there.

#33 5 years ago

Not sure why I didnt think of this earlier, but if you have a diode lying around you can always use it to jumper your Column 2 pulse onto row 6 by removing your J1 cable and sticking the diode between pins 3 and 4 (Green-Red) (white-Blue) wires with the striped side in pin 3. If this action doesn't cause a switch closure, nothing you do to the sensor board will matter.

Just be careful not to stick it in the wrong pins or you can short your 12V to ground.

#34 5 years ago
Quoted from Pin_Guy:

I had you ground U2-5, if you have a good connection back to the MPU this would drive all switches in row 6 low

Oh ... I never had you do this.

#35 5 years ago

If I quickly ground U2-5, I get a row short.

#36 5 years ago

I think you have checked everything there is to check at this point. It looks like U2 will need to be replaced.

#37 5 years ago

Thanks so much for the help. You sure know your stuff.

The 4N35 chip is $.50. Sure hate to pay shipping on just $.50. I have had the pinball/ arcade video game bug for a long time and don't see it going away, other than I have to sell something to add something. Would like to have some common spare parts on hand. Do you have any recommendations on spare chips, diodes and resistors to keep on hand? Does anyone sell a kit. I recently purchased a bunch of slow blow fuses as they are hard to find in the store.

#38 5 years ago

I do board work so I have a decent stockpile of parts, some of the most common high fail items that are good to have on hand are:

Micro switches
1n4004 diodes (these rarely fail but are throw away items when replacing a switch)
TIP102
TIP107
TIP36C
Bridge rectifier KBPC3504W
LM339 IC
ULN2803 (U20 on CPU)

I get most of my stuff from Mouser Electronics.

#39 5 years ago

Thanks again. You are awsome.

#40 5 years ago

I am still fighting this issue.

I purchased a 4N35 chip, but it has not arrived yet. I also purchased a new prox board made by pinpoint. Board arrived yesterday.

I plugged in the pinpoint board last night hopefully to confirm all my issues were with the board. Popped the 3 amp fuse for the 12 volt supply. Was not expecting that. Only would blow the fuse with the pinpoint board. Emailed the manufacturer and they suggested I clip the C4 cap on the board. I guess that cap was creating an inrush of current and popping the fuse. It worked. Fuse did not pop, but switch 26 would still not register even though the led on the board shows that the prox is detecting metal.

If the connection to the CPU was bad, I would have a row or column of switches out. I do not. I have not double confirmed there are no other switches out, but I have certainly tested switches in the same row or column and they work. Also play several games.

Has to be a connection issue. I rechecked the resistance. From U2-5 of the prox board to J208-7, 1.2 ohms. From D2 diode on the prox board to J206-2, 1.4 ohms. Connections seem fine.

I hear of folks soldering the connections. Does anyone have a photo they can send me? I was thinking most were soldering the connection between the prox and the board. I have no issue with turning the led on the board on. I just can not get a signal to the CPU.

Do I have anther bad board? Out of ideas and need advise from someone smarter than me. CPU issue???

#41 5 years ago

I doubt your CPU is the issue in this case, if you want to confirm this, disconnect J206/207, J208/209, and J212 then jumper J206-2 to J208-7; if the switch reads closed, then the CPU isn't the issue.

http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC#Switch_Matrix_Problems

#42 5 years ago

Do that test and get “switch edges, last switch 26”

#43 5 years ago

CPU is fine. I can run across the row and column of the matrix by jumpering J206/J208.

#44 5 years ago

CPU is good. Wiring is good. ... and I have the same issue with two different prox boards. Not sure where the problem is. Got to think it is a connection issue, but the connection test good.

#45 5 years ago

Checked voltage to the prox board. It is 13.25 DC. Seems like Power is good.

#46 5 years ago

Pin Guy - You mentioned I could "you have a diode lying around you can always use it to jumper your Column 2 pulse onto row 6 by removing your J1 cable and sticking the diode between pins 3 and 4 (Green-Red) (white-Blue) wires with the striped side in pin 3" I have a sa12ca bidirectional diode. Would that work for testing?

#47 5 years ago
Quoted from ncsujeff:

Pin Guy - You mentioned I could "you have a diode lying around you can always use it to jumper your Column 2 pulse onto row 6 by removing your J1 cable and sticking the diode between pins 3 and 4 (Green-Red) (white-Blue) wires with the striped side in pin 3

You can accomplish the same thing with a wire...This is essentially the same test you performed on your processor board, only at the power/signal plug coming into the eddy board. The diode only prevents low going pulses (switch closures) on the row 6 from reactivating column 2; this wont be an issue during testing, but if you see phantom switch closures on row 6 or column 2 while testing, this would be why.

#48 5 years ago

Thanks again for all your help. I shorted pin 3 to pin 4 on the back side (solder side) of the original A-16534 board and the pinpoint board. I did a single switch test as shorting triggered several phantom switch closures as you noted. When I shorted, it activated switch 26. This would point to both boards being bad as the LED on the boards work when the prox is activated.

Input voltage on pin 1 and 2 for A-16534 is 13.25 VDC. It that OK?

What else could it be?

#49 5 years ago

Your voltage to the board is fine, I cant see any other possible issue besides a missing output from your 4N35 ... I can think of nothing else that would cause this issue. I have to admit I'm a little set back by the replacement board not working.

5 years later
#50 3 months ago

On start up I get Switch 26 Eddy sensor error. However in game I believe Powerball is working correctly. I have a replament board for this installed. Could game being seeing an error but game still working right?

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