I give up, cant teach an old dog new tricks and I don't blame you for not caring about the planet.It's probably to late anyway. You really do have a valid point as far as cost-effectiveness and if you look at it as a business or whats best for ones pocketbook, the investment you would have to make is not worth it to you, and it's your money to spend. For me its worth it because its the most fun I have had in a car since I was 16 (and that was a long long time ago).
I went from Chicago to upper Michigan and had no problems finding superchargers, One was at culvers, another was at a resort, and one was at a larger grocery store. So chargers are expanding to remote locations at a rapid pace. And to be honest with you I don't believe you when you say their were no superchargers in the upper Peninsula. as a suggestion,do a google search for superchargers near the location you went to and see what pops up.

So you asked how many miles does 20 minutes get? 250-300 miles. Fully charged is 300 but stop before it gets to low.
Updating your electric should be no more than 2k. It cost my son just under 1000 to update his.
I was able to install the home charger myself. It's basically the same as putting in a stove plug or dryer plug. It cost $800 to buy.
The car cost us 60k but they do start at 50ish
I'm not trying to be a smart ass and It's not for you and I totally understand, but when I hear of people not embracing the cool things the future has to offer I shrug and think they are missing out of a lot of fun.

It's interesting I have had my Model 3 since they were first delivered to Canada. I have never super charged it once that I felt I had to wait for it. Every time I have been to a super charger I was like ok I have been on the highway for 4 hours I need to take a break from this car and stretch my legs. It was exactly the same as I would have done in a regular car. The car charges fast enough that its ready to go when I am. 99% of the time I charge at work or home it only the occasional road trips I have ever need a super charger. Your looking at like 20 minutes for an 8 hour drive. Are you ICE guys like pissing in a bottle and hitting the gas station like its a nascar pit stop?

Hahaha

My house has 200 amp service, I would have no problem...
the step kid's does not, in fact his panel has two cheater breakers that has two circuit breakers in the place of one. He would have to do some serious electrical up grades. Or shut the A/C off just to charge your car like that would happen

The route we took was thru the UP stopping at lighthouses, now are a few places to charge them but not back then. except one motel in Escanaba.
BTW the my 2000 Corvette convertible was getting 30 MPG, does Tesla make a convertible? just a promise of a roadster that is $200K

BTW MY Terrian has AWD and that option will cost you another $6K on a model 3 and still not haul a pinball machine. I have averaged 30 MPG since new and thats almost double of my old full size truck... Just Why would I but it other than to "GO GREEN"

So your model 3 can get a full charge in 20 minutes with a range of 334 miles ??? I never heard that before
Tell what is the optimum speed you drive to get to the advertised 334 miles? 267 miles on standard battery.

Example of driving thru and pit stops. 4 college kids leave Ann Arbor to got to Miami for spring break rotating drivers. its a little about 1350 miles or twenty hours. I doubt they want to stop four times for an hour to get a full recharge if the have the extended range battery.

Yes, I have driven straight thru on several long trips with two to four drivers.

I’m Canadian so I think in Metric. My car has a 500km range. Our highways have generally a 100km per hour speed limit. My car has peaked out at 1000km per hour super charge rate. So 400km can be done in around 20 min. Start fully charged drive 4 hours super charge for 20 min and drive another 4 hours. I would still have plenty of range to spare. It’s great that you have a situation that you need to rotate drivers and drive non stop around the clock. I’m glad there are cars available that fit your needs. If we want to talk extreme I could hypermile for crazy time and distance.

P.S. The 24 hour record for a Model 3 is something like 2800km I think that should be good enough for most people.

They already make a car to haul a machine.

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The wife and I did a road trip from San Diego to Alameda to pick up a pin at the Pacific Pinball Museum in our Model S. Made a 5 day little get away out of it, Six flags Magic Mountain on the way up, then on the way back San Fran, Santa Cruze, and ATV riding at the Dunes at Pismo beach. The car will map out all the super chargers along the way. Never had to wait for Charging station. Love the car.

I want a Tesla truck, But the design of the Cyber truck might be a bit much for me.

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-you will never have to supercharge for an hour (I think at least 9 of us with experience have said that so far)

-you don’t typically roll into a supercharger with 0%

Also let me know when you find college kids that would choose a comparable ICE car over a Tesla for a road trip.

Better looking, Better Built, Nicer Interior
For those that don't want to look like Mad Max
pasted_image (resized).png

No question about better looking. Those other things we will have to wait to see.

There’s a lot of underrated things about owning a Tesla. Tesla has really advanced their software and app interface. That’s a real plus that nobody talks about. Also the much discussed supercharger network.

But that’s a much better looking electric truck.

100% Agree, they are excellent at software and charging infrastructure, but they still can't screw and glue a car together as well as every other manufacturer

I am not a telsa hater, I really love what they have done, but they design every car interior to minimize the parts bin and it shows when comparing it to all other EV interiors. Doesn't hold up in a comparison to the Rivian interior, or the chevy or the ford. I know, you get used to just having a center screen - but me, I prefer a gauge cluster or at least a HUD.

Just remembering the early days of cell phones and beepers: phones large and heavy as a brick and the price was out of reach, and beepers: me driving to the nearest pay phone because I got a message on my beeper. My dad never wanting a cell phone, staying with a land line at home because he refused to change with the times. Look at us now, almost everyone has a cell but even now people are bitching about cell towers. Even with change, not everyone is going to be happy all of the time.

That’s a cell phone reverse cargument!!! Well done! And quite an apt comparison I feel.

It's all about use cases. If your use case includes 1350 mile road trips as fast as possible then okay, stick with ICE. But again, for the overwhelming number of Americans, they drive LESS THAN 100 MILES PER DAY. If you can charge at home, EVs are awesome. If you can't, then that's a different conversation all together. You can nit pick all you want about panel upgrade costs, charger costs, whatever, but when gas goes over $5/gallon again (and it's getting there fast) your ROI on any upgrades to your home electrical infrastructure start to look really nice. Again, not for everyone.

My issue continues to be people in your position claiming your use case is why EVs aren't practical. You refuse to accept the reality that using your baseline as everyones baseline is foolish at best. Just like if I were to say because an EV works great for me (okay not great since we need good 4x4 in the winter here but when we lived in CA it was a different story) it must work great for everyone. That doesn't make much sense either.

Lastly, high current DC chargers (which is what a supercharger is) can pump a serious amount of electrons into your battery in a relatively short amount of time. I've seen crazy high speeds at times, including 300 miles in 20 minutes, but it's only fair to point out those are the exceptions and not the usual reality. For supercharging to be at its most effective you need a low battery SOC, a warm battery, and a "cool" supercharger. Tesla doesn't liquid cool it's supercharger hardware (not the plug pedestal but the hardware behind that) and at times in hot summer conditions the charging speed can be quite horrible. Also if all stations are busy you're likely going to get a "hot" handle which will impact your speed as well as heat is the enemy of electricity. All of these are manageable if you can charge at home overnight and don't take frequent long mileage road trips. But... if you can't, and you do, an EV is likely not for you right now.

Jeff

Musk explained why the Cybertruck looks like it does:
1. The most expensive parts of a new vehicle line are making the tooling and installing the paint booth; EACH one costs around $500,000,000.
2. To avoid paint and tooling you need an alloy that doesn't corrode easily and is reasonably rigid, so they went with a similar one to the SpaceX alloy.
3. The alloy they use CAN'T be shaped by dies, even in a 10000 TON press, so all they can do is cut and weld it.
So basically by doing the Cybertruck design like it is, Tesla saves a billion dollars upfront.

So an EV isn't for you or your based on your needs and living situation. They won't be for Everyone. We get it.

I really hope my next vehicle is an EV. I like the idea of the electric F150, but it won't fit in my garage. Maybe charging in the driveway will work. I'll be checking out the Kia/Hyundai options. The rent is just too damn high at Tesla and Rivian.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s ugly and I love it! I’m preordered. Don’t forget the outside is basically the structural frame for the whole thing. Like a steel bridge between the wheels. Or an exoskeleton. It’s an amazing engineering feat.

So what will the Cybertruck cost? and did your preorder lock in a price?
note that the Delorian DMC-12 was supposed to cost 12 grand and when it got to the showroom it was 25 grand.

Why compare Tesla to DeLorean? Has there been 1 example of the price increasing on a customer who placed an order? No. The prices are locked in.

Try buying a new car from the big 3 right now. Dealers are marking up $10-50k+

So does the high current DC chargers affect the life span of the battery ? or reduce the capacity of it faster than the standard rate?

about 4/5 years ago a supercharger would bring up a battery to 80% in about an hour and another half hour to get it to 100%

So these superchargers rate vary do to heat/usage, so 300 miles a can take 20 minutes maybe 30 or 40.
A gas pump will take 4 minutes to add 300 miles to my car any time of the day night temprature does not matter.

My R/C experience with batteries:

Ni-Cad best to charge at 1/10c c=capacity (60ma rate for 10 hours on a 600 mahr battery pack and do not leave the charger on for more than 12 hours) to prevent "memory" you were to discharge to 1.1 volts per cell before charging. Fast/peak charging at the flying field was the worst way to charge your batteries. Ni-Cad for aircraft and stadium trucks four packs, sub C, were recommended: drive, cool, charge, and kool down again. These were known to get quite warm when charging and discharging

Lithium Polymer used today for many electric planes. In EDF Electric Ducted Fan jets I spoke with Bob Violet of BVM Jets. he said the battery packs recommend would go for about 300 cycles before capacity was at 80%. And if you flew them like his reps did fast and hard acceleration about 200 cycles.

Kinda, yeah. I did lot of driving past two days visiting colleges with my daughter. I didn't have to plan where to stop, monitor range, or anything like that. When fuel low light came on dash, I simply stopped at next convenient station, filled up in less than a minute, and was back on my way covering hundreds more miles. If we need restrooms, that only takes a few extra minutes. I know charging times are fast but they are not that fast. Nothing against ev cars but just saying.

Gas is on the way to $4/gallon. Electricity is steady at .12 /kWh. Most American made cars in the US. Navigation does all the “planning”. Just saying.

Just an FYI, Electric rates vary wildly across the USA. San Diego charges $0.27 to $0.31 as an example.
$0.121 in Detroit
$0.177 in Las Vegas
$0.143 in New York City.

Even Gasoline doesn't vary this much across the land.

Gas is $3/gallon here and I paid $5/gallon in CA a couple months ago.

Electricity rates are not tracking with gasoline increases.

Agreed. $3.50-$3.99 variance in Las Vegas for Regular. Paid $4.49 for premium at Sinclair just now while Joy riding with my son.
Photo from late August '21, at Primm, Nevada, Mile Marker zero on I-15.

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Ouch. That’s rough. Can’t wait for everything to get back to “normal”.

those are rates for your home

NOW got to a charging station and tell me what the rate is a little bit more to a lot more depending on/off peak times

I dont get it telsa owner say he can get 300 mile range in twenty minutes of charging

https://www.tesla.com/model3/design#overview
*
TESLA website says you have a range of 267 miles on a model 3
*
I'm old school but I can still do the math, I guess new school math is different

Bruce, do you still have that picture of gas below $1.00 in Michigan during the peak COVID crap ?

Wife just paid $3.15 at Sam's Club, she got a free 1 year membership, most places $3.30 ish

meanwhile in Texas: https://www.engadget.com/tesla-cybertruck-production-production-2023-152051543.html

You don’t understand because you’re choosing not to listen to people with experience.

You just keep reviewing your “math” in an echo chamber

"people with experience" means what? 1 to 3 years owning a Tesla?
While the Tesla motors has been in business for about ten years go figure.
OK the long range Model 3 has a range of 334 mile you are telling that they once took their car to 34 miles or less to "empty" and then the supercharger version 3 in 20 minutes brought the car to the 300 mile mark? or did they left the fact out about have 100-200 miles of range and hit up the supercharger to top it off at 300+ miles. there is a difference.

I don't drink the Tesla kool-aid and don't believe that Tesla's are zero emission vehicles, but they are displaced emission vehicles.

It's interesting to see both side of this topic, but a person has to own both types in order to see the other persons view. I own both and would never buy another ICE again . My EV is being used 95% of the time and once they...... meaning all makes and models of EV's get 400 miles+, bye bye ICE.

LOLOLOLOLOL

You continue to miss the point entirely and keep bring ever more ridiculous straw man arguments to the table. Again, YOU CHARGE IN YOUR GARAGE WHILE YOU SLEEP. This makes all of your other "noise" completely irrelevant for the VAST MAJORITY of US auto owners.

However, since you asked... Yes and no on the first part, it's known that if you supercharge a "lot" (and "lot" is a completely subjective term that Tesla doesn't really define) you "may" experience current limiting on your supercharging sessions. I never saw it, but I know some people who did. Does it hurt the battery? I never saw any noticeable degradation in my cars (owned each 3 years) from use in general. Can't and won't say my experience mirror everyone else's because I just don't know.

Your R/C experience literally has no bearing whatsoever to the batteries Tesla is using, absolutely none. The chemistry is completely different, the materials are completely different, the software systems are completely different... It's like saying you fly model rockets and you're just not sure how that'll translate to a SpaceX Falcon 9. Same goes for your BVM Jets thing. A battery is not a battery, that's where you went wrong.

Jeff

You're being either intentionally obtuse or... My Model X didn't have that much range either but I routinely saw charging rates in excess of 350 miles per hour. All depends on how you want to look at it I guess. ICEs almost NEVER make their stated mileage number but that doesn't seem to stop people from buying them. Same thing.

Jeff

Bob is just toying and poking at the Tesla fans and EVs in general. Its a lost cause.
On a good note, or interesting note Biden finally said, and gave Tesla a shout out a the largest manafactuer on EVs out their. It's about time, cars are being manufactured in the United States they bring in good solid jobs and all the "big 3"lobbyist keep trying to ignore or treat Tesla as a nonexistent auto manufacturer. Go Tesla :}

It's not about "drinking the Tesla kool-aid" at all and it's absurd you'd even go there. Elon Musk is a conman and Tesla is a corrupt company. None of that changes the fact that EVs are the future, they're absolutely out of this world fun to drive, and for the vast number of American auto owners they fit perfectly into the normal use case. Oh and I have 6+ years of Tesla ownership so I think I have a pretty damn good grasp of how EVs work, where they grossly out class ICE, and where they need work. You can chose to ignore people like me and wallow in your own ignorance but change is coming... Whether you want it or not.

Jeff

My electric rate went from .075 to .095 per kwh last month...21% jump.

Yup. Fuel costs do add up but the hefty premium you pay for ev does pay for a lot of gas. I never understood the concept of spending a lot of money to save a little money. If you are that concerned about costs, buy a very small, basic, cheap, reliable ice car. Drive it for 15+ years and then buy another. Why would you buy anything else? Answer of course is that we all want different things in cars and have different needs. Sometimes we just want something exciting that makes driving more enjoyable. My daily is a manual transmission. Automatic is far superior in every way but I rather have a manual since it's more fun to drive. There is no one size fits all with cars.

DITTO . Could not agree more. Period. Case closed.

He you go bob_eApril 14, 2020. Sam's Club, Utica, MI.

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When an EV can go 440 miles +/- and can "refill" in 5 minutes and cost the same as my ICE then I will BUY it !

My New car GMC Terrian SLE with AWD. out the door price was $30,250.(including discounts + taxes + title)
FINALLY TESLA now has a service center in Clarkston MI about 22 miles away (GMC dealer is 6 miles from home)
But to pay 3x time to buy a model S so I can carry a pinball machine sorry I don't make that kind of money.
A model 3 with AWD is $46K 50% more and I doubt if a pinball machine will fit in it.

So for me now the Smart money is on ICE. looking at 228,000 miles to be at a break even point.

We can see when the demand for gas drops so does the price.
I guess when EV sales are half the market the demand for gas will drop and so will the price.
I will not forecast the price for electricity when the demand goes up.

That’s awesome, I remember those days too. Take a picture today and put them side by side.

LOL... No you won't, you'll just keep moving the goal posts because that's easier than admitting you were wrong. Someone could come out with an EV today that had 500+ miles of range and could fully charge to 100% in 10 min and you'd be here talking about how you won't buy it because it doesn't scratch your ass while you drive. You've made it abundantly clear your position, however wrong and misinformed it is, and when people dig in like that there's no changing anything.

Funny you bring up service infrastructure, I say that because Tesla has had to fight GM/Ford/Dealer lobby and their influence on state legislatures just to exist. But I suppose that also doesn't fit your narrative either.

Jeff

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/09/tesla-recalls-over-26600-vehicles-over-windshield-defroster-software.html

What is your point? Yes Tesla has recalls, and guess what... So does EVERYONE else... LOL...

Jeff

I never did see an answer on the expected life span of the batteries and replacement costs. Maybe I missed it.
I just remember watching my friend spend 5k to replace the batteries in his 8 year old hybrid. Ouch
I know, battery technology is improving and someday it's going to be solid. Not sure it's there yet IMO