(Topic ID: 33933)

Tech Williams system 6 Firepower help needed


By pinballlizard

6 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 40 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 10 months ago by Schwaggs
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 6 years ago

I am looking for a little help. My fire power will boot and briefly display 1492 2 in player one with 0 on all other displays. Quickly only player one and credit/ball display remain on. Player one will blink out some gibberish, credit shows 4 and ball in play will count 1 to 40 and keep looping through this count. The machine has been working good for awhile now with the exception of column 8 lights stuck on. I just replaced the pre driver with mpsa14 transistor. I played 2-3 games with no issue. Column 8 lights were working. I shut the back box put the glass on and this crazy behavior started. Today I have changed the one remaining scanbe which was the cpu, other scanbe sockets were changed a couple months back. I swapped in new 5101 and new eproms. no change. Game boots normal, both LEDs blink on and go out. On board williams diagnositc and both led blink 2 times and go out. I took out the eproms and put in leons test prom. LEDs blink. I used my logic probe on all PIAs and they all check normal, pulsing input and output. I have 5 volts on blanking circuit on both mpu and driver board. 40 way board interconnect on female side previously replaced and reflowed male pins. What else could be going on?

#2 6 years ago

Did you change connectors on the driver and MPU boards? Especially the power connector on the upper left of the MPU board and the lamp connector on the driver board? If you've swapped sockets and ROMs and 40 pin, those are next on the list.

viperrwk

#3 6 years ago

I have only changed one connector. Voltages all seem fine. You still think connectors? I can sure swap them and see. It sort of goes along with dying after board removal. This still does this with all driver board connectors removed.

#4 6 years ago

the one I changed was upper right for displays

#5 6 years ago

On my Firepower I changed sockets and 40 pin and did the pull-up resistor mod on U14 and still had problems. It was all better once I changed the header pins at 1J2 and the connector on the harness to that plug. In fact, I changed the header pins first and still had problems. Once I changed the connector is was all good.

Same thing for the lamps - had to repin the connector and new header pins at 2J5 since it was damaged from the batteries leaking at one time.

Oh and I did do the display connectors as well since they were flaky too. As they say with these machines, "connectors, connectors, connectors."

viperrwk

#6 6 years ago

I changed 1j1 and 1j2 and it is still doing the same thing. I am starting to thing that the "4" in the credit window is test 4. So it comes up briefly into test and that is why the 1497 2 is displayed and it then jumps to test 4. I am thinking about ordering a new IC1. Any other ideas?

#7 6 years ago

If it's booting and the LEDs go out and blinks with Leon's ROM I don't think you need a new IC1. You can try disconnecting 1j4 for the coin door diagnostic and see if it still cycles. If it doesn't you have a problem with the switch. I assume it passed leon's memory test. If so could be batteries or diode for the memory.

Also did you do both sides of 1j2 - header and connector?

viperrwk

#8 6 years ago

leon's ram test passes. disconnecting 1j4 does nothing. I only changed the 1j2 connector, not pins. I did reflow them. They are shinny. I could try that. This board had no battery damage at all.

#9 6 years ago

I'd change it. The original header pins are short and the connection isn't great even when reflowed. And there's only one pin for the unregulated 5v so it doesn't take much for that to go bad. Remember "5v for the reset pins of the MPU ICs is created on the MPU from the +12v unregulated supply" (this from PinWiki.)

I'd also check TP7 - should have 4.3v with power on and 3.9v with the power off.

Finally, I'd check the diode at D17 - it's a 1N4148. If that shorts that could be causing a reset problem.

viperrwk

#10 6 years ago

I changed out the pins, tested the diodes and checked TP7 (4.8 and 3.0) Any other ideas?

#11 6 years ago

something else I noticed. Pushing credit will stop the counting in ball in play. I am temped to replace ic15.

#12 6 years ago

Thinking about it some more, Leon's ROM doesn't care about or test the diagnostic switch/memory protect circuit. Since your board passes his tests you can assume CPU, memory, PIAs and addressing are all good, which would include IC15 (74LS139 address decoder.)

If you can, you should double check the ROMs (since Leon's can't verify the game or flipper ROMs.) If they check out, I'd look at IC7, IC12, IC24 & IC27, with particular attention to IC27 (4071 Quad input NOR) as all are part of the memory protect circuit.

viperrwk

#13 6 years ago

The 6821's can pass boot up checks and still be bad causing issues.

#14 6 years ago
Quoted from LEE:

The 6821's can pass boot up checks and still be bad causing issues.

Yes, but he said he checked the PIAs with Leon's and they were all good.

viperrwk

#15 6 years ago

Posting before enough coffee will do that.

Has your PSB been upgraded connectors, cap, and tying 5v and grounds?

My Blackout started getting flakey after 10 years. Replacing the 40 pin m+f and rebuilding the PSB calmed it down.

1 week later
#16 6 years ago

Just getting back to this after christmas. The PSB has all new caps. Larger diode upgrade. No 5v or ground tie together, I did not see that in a guide. The speech board boots and works every time and what I read was that indicated PSB is probably fine. Not sure if that is true. New female 40 pin connectors. Reflowed and clean 40 way male pins.

#17 6 years ago
Quoted from viperrwk:

Thinking about it some more, Leon's ROM doesn't care about or test the diagnostic switch/memory protect circuit. Since your board passes his tests you can assume CPU, memory, PIAs and addressing are all good, which would include IC15 (74LS139 address decoder.)
If you can, you should double check the ROMs (since Leon's can't verify the game or flipper ROMs.) If they check out, I'd look at IC7, IC12, IC24 & IC27, with particular attention to IC27 (4071 Quad input NOR) as all are part of the memory protect circuit.
viperrwk

I burned a new set of roms and tried them

#18 6 years ago

Memory protect circuit. IC7, 12, 24 and in particular 27 if you are confident in the ROMs.

viperrwk

#19 6 years ago

just a quick look with the logic probe and 7, 12 and 27 all have highs lows and pluses on various pins. 24 pin 12 and 13 have nothing but appear unused in the schematic. There are however no pulsing lines. Is that normal?

#20 6 years ago

Are you sure you don't have a stuck coin door Advance button. What you are describing is what you do to change game settings except that you are not doing them manually. Here is an example for setting to free play.

-From the game over mode set the auto up / manual down to switch to auto up and depress the advance button to advance the diagnostics to test 04.

-operate the Advance button to until the function 18 is indicated in the ball in play display.

If you kept hitting the Advance button it would cycle through all the settings (maybe 40) don't have my firepower up right now.

Let us know,

Good luck, Kenny

#21 6 years ago

I fat fingered and sent that. I meant to add feel free to email/PM me for more details.

It seems that people with a lot of points have already responded so not sure if I can help you.

I am not sure if you have battery damage or some of the crazy things that make this happen, but my random uneducated opinion is that you are booting to audit mode and then the coin door switches are taking over.

Kenny

#22 6 years ago

It boots the audit than crashes consistently? Have you tried a new 5101 ram?

#23 6 years ago
Quoted from pinballlizard:

just a quick look with the logic probe and 7, 12 and 27 all have highs lows and pluses on various pins. 24 pin 12 and 13 have nothing but appear unused in the schematic. There are however no pulsing lines. Is that normal?

IC24 looking suspect.

From Clive:

http://webpages.charter.net/coinopcauldron/memprot.html

viperrwk

#24 6 years ago

Sorry - shouldn't answer tech questions before coffee in the AM.

You say you get no pulsing but what logic levels do you get on IC24?
With the coin door open IC24 pin 8 should be low. Close the door and pin 8 should go high.
Pin 6 on IC24 should be high until you press the diagnostic switch on the MPU - then it should go low. If you're not getting this then IC24 is bad.

viperrwk

#25 6 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

It boots the audit than crashes consistently? Have you tried a new 5101 ram?

I have tried new 5101 and no change. I would not call it crashing. It seems like it started in audit and goes to test 4 and starts counting. It just keeps looping 1-40.

#26 6 years ago
Quoted from viperrwk:

Sorry - shouldn't answer tech questions before coffee in the AM.
You say you get no pulsing but what logic levels do you get on IC24?
With the coin door open IC24 pin 8 should be low. Close the door and pin 8 should go high.
Pin 6 on IC24 should be high until you press the diagnostic switch on the MPU - then it should go low. If you're not getting this then IC24 is bad.
viperrwk

I tried this and pin 6 and 8 are working as you describe.

#27 6 years ago
Quoted from pinballlizard:

I tried this and pin 6 and 8 are working as you describe.

Ok - IC24 is ok.

Let's look at IC12 next. With the coin door open, IC12 pin 8 should always be low. If it pulses or is high, its bad.

For IC27, with the power off, pin 2 & 3 should be high. If they're not, and assuming the batteries are installed and working correctly, then IC27 is bad.

viperrwk

#28 6 years ago

ic12 pin 8 low unless i shut the door then it pulses.

IC27 power off, button cell showing 3 volts installed. Getting 2v on pin 2 and 2.8 on pin 3.

#29 6 years ago

should I see pulses on pin 38 and 39 of IC1? They show low on the logic probe. They also only show 1.2 v

#30 6 years ago

I have the boards back on the bench and re running leon's test. Pin 18 of the switch PIA basically shows low on probe. There is the lightest of flicker on the yellow light with no tone.

#31 6 years ago

all 4 PIAs on pin 18 act like that so I guess it is normal

#32 6 years ago

Well, after running through all of the leon tests and everything passing again, It is back in the machine and working. I made no repairs at all. I can only think a flec of solder, poorly seated chip or something. Thanks for the help guys.

#33 6 years ago

Glad it is working now. Honestly, not sure what it would have been since your numbers showed the memory protect circuit working. If it shows a problem again, try Andre's test ROM as it seems to be more exhaustive in testing than Leon's exercising both the MPU and driver board including PIAs and blanking.

Best,

viperrwk

#34 6 years ago

I got the ball stuck pretty good at one point in the firepower, pounded on the side of the cabinet to unseat it, and the previously broken display came back to life and hasn't had a problem since. Very picky machines they are.

#35 6 years ago

where can you get Andre's rom?

5 years later
#37 10 months ago

Having same exact issue after replacing 5101 with a socketed NVRAM. Took NVRAM out and put 5101 into the socket and same issue.
Swapping in a Rottendog combo board and game runs normally. It acts like the CPU thinks the test switch is stuck on.

#38 10 months ago
Quoted from DRDAVE:

Having same exact issue after replacing 5101 with a socketed NVRAM. Took NVRAM out and put 5101 into the socket and same issue.
Swapping in a Rottendog combo board and game runs normally. It acts like the CPU thinks the test switch is stuck on.

Did you remove the battery holder? If so, insert a piece of wire and solder in the upper right hole where the battery holder was installed. Make sure you have connectivity from one side of the board to the other. This is the ground trace and if connectivity is lost from one side of the board to the other through this hole, the 74LS02 to the left of that hole is not grounded and can cause this issue.

#39 10 months ago

Awesome! That fixed this issue.

In the spirit of Thanksgiving..... THANKYOU!!!! =)

Quoted from Schwaggs:

Did you remove the battery holder? If so, insert a piece of wire and solder in the upper right hole where the battery holder was installed. Make sure you have connectivity from one side of the board to the other. This is the ground trace and if connectivity is lost from one side of the board to the other through this hole, the 74LS02 to the left of that hole is not grounded and can cause this issue.

#40 10 months ago
Quoted from DRDAVE:

Awesome! That fixed this issue.
In the spirit of Thanksgiving..... THANKYOU!!!! =)

Awesome, you are quite welcome! Congrats on the fix!

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