(Topic ID: 105233)

TECH: Twilight Zone Opto Problems

By brucipher

9 years ago


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  • 13 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 9 years ago by brucipher
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There are 60 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 9 years ago

Hey everyone,

So I had not played my TZ for several weeks (a crime, I know) and I went to fire it up Friday night and I had all sorts of switch errors. All of the switch issues are opto switches. Switches 81 and 83 (left and right magnet) always come up, and then the other switches are random and not always the same - but always optos. I tried to do a little research and here is what I checked out so far:

I reseated a lot of the connectors in the backbox. No fuses are blown. I pulled the opto board and examined the pins and the joints looked very good with no cracks and nothing seemed loose. But, there are some odd wires soldered on the opto board (see picture). Is this some sort of hack done by a previous owner?

Do you think this is an opto board issue (i.e. just buy a new opto board) or any other recommendations of things to check out?

Thank you!!!

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#2 9 years ago

Those jumpers look crude, but if they were working before they should be working now. Ck your 12vdc going to the opto board. I had a BSD recently with all sorts of opto issues and the 12vdc was measuring 9.5. Turned out to be a bad bridge rectifier and capacitor.

#3 9 years ago
Quoted from LOTR_breath:

Those jumpers look crude, but if they were working before they should be working now. Ck your 12vdc going to the opto board. I had a BSD recently with all sorts of opto issues and the 12vdc was measuring 9.5. Turned out to be a bad bridge rectifier and capacitor.

Thanks...I will have to try and measure that. I am definitely still a novice where my electronics skills are concerned.

Are those jumpers normal on the board, or is that some sort of hack?

#4 9 years ago

That is a hack/repair, not normal.

#5 9 years ago

Ok...still having issues. I tested the connector that plugs into the 10 opto board and the voltage was fine. I played around with a lot of the connectors in the backbox, and all of a sudden the machine worked for several days with no problems. Played many games, no switch errors.

Went down today to play and sure enough the problem was back (I had a feeling I was playing on borrowed time). Same switch errors. When I go into the test menu and go to switch edges, it keeps filtering through switches 81, 83, 85, 87 (all along the right hand side of the little box diagram on the screen..I guess that is column 8).

Any other thoughts about things to check? I am having a party tomorrow and really hope I can get it working again.

#6 9 years ago

Really tough to troubleshoot long distance! When you were messing with the connectors in the backbox, did you perhaps re-seat any of the ribbon cables? They do go bad and complete sets are available from places like Great Plains Electronics. Another thing to test is the 12v filter capacitor. Ck the same 12volts you did before, but put the meter on AC voltage. Anything more than .2 to .3 volts of AC there and the cap is going bad.

#7 9 years ago

I really appreciate your help...I know long distance is hard. I wish I had a better handle on the electronics side of things. I am slowly learning, but I should probably start taking some electronics classes to better understand it.

Here is a quick video of the switch edge test I spoke of:

If the ribbon cable is the issue, which one would you guess it is? I have an Addams Family and Bram Stokers Dracula. I could probably pull the ribbon cable from one of those and try it in TZ to see if that is the culprit.

#8 9 years ago

Ok, just checked the connector that plugs into the 10 opto board and here are my readings from my multimeter:

Setting DCV 20 on multimeter: 14.6
Setting ACV 200 on multimeter: 31.5

I forgot to mention, that when the machine just sits in attract mode, the solenoid which ejects the ball from the indent behind the clock (ball lock) periodically fires.

I will also note that I was having some random button resets at one point, but I had installed one of kahr's daughter boards (maybe 6 months ago) which fixed that problem. Not sure if these two things are connected or not...

#9 9 years ago

I'm very familiar with the TZ 10-opto board because mine drove me insane with intermittent problems for a long long time. You're problems are exactly like mine, and I'm happy to say that I fixed it!

My problem was ultimately that the 100 uF capacitor C1 on the opto board leaked, caused some corrosion, and damaged some traces. I think damaged traces were more of a problem than the capacitor itself, but I replaced the cap, added some jumpers, and I was back in business.

You should pull the opto board and look at it very closely. If the capacitor is bulging or if there is ANY sign of leakage around the capacitor (especially the leads and their traces), you should replace C1. Radioshack sells 100 uF capacitors.

Here are two Pinside posts I made about my problems. I pretty thoroughly documented my problems and solution. Good luck!

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/all-twilight-zone-optos-go-out-intermittently

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/opto-questions-twilight-zone-opto-board

#10 9 years ago

I just watched your video and discovered that your problem is slightly different than mine in that only the five optos on column 8 are flickering on and off for you, whereas it was all 10 for me.

I still think your problem is the 10-opto board, mostly because you can see from the photo that it's trashed. I suspect you've got broken traces somewhere, which would best be discovered with a multimeter. Unfortunately, the fact that your problem is intermittent is going to make it a hundred times more difficult to diagnose.

At the very least, you should rest easy knowing that your worst case scenario is buying a new 10-opto board from Great Lakes Modular. http://www.greatlakesmodular.com/products/pinball/osb10b.html

#11 9 years ago

Thanks mot. I just took some more pictures of the 10 opto board. While I had it out I reflowed the pins just for the hell of it (no luck). The C1 cap looks fine...

Here are the pics for the hell of it...I am sure they won't do much good.

The York show is going on right now...do you think anyone there has anything like this? I would drive up there tomorrow just to buy one (to have a working TZ for my party tomorrow night). I guess I could put a call out on here...

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#12 9 years ago

It could certainly be the 10 opto board. But, if you are correct that you are reading 31.5 vac on a 12vdc line, that is an obvious problem.

#13 9 years ago

Mayfair is there and they have alot of boards of everything Williams so they may have it

#14 9 years ago

chip at u2 don't look to good,cracked joint left leg of r4. get the board mot linked for you. g.l. joe

#15 9 years ago
Quoted from bigd1979:

Mayfair is there and they have alot of boards of everything Williams so they may have it

Thanks for the tip...I just called Mayfair but unfortunately they don't have one.

#16 9 years ago

I just noticed...is something missing at C2? Is that what one of the jumpers may be about?

#17 9 years ago

I just seen that a corner is broken off of the plastic and it looks like something is on the top of the chip.(glue or ? ) joe

#18 9 years ago
Quoted from joe2012:

I just seen that a corner is broken off of the plastic and it looks like something is on the top of the chip.(glue or ? ) joe

I think that could be the culprit. While in switch edge test I carefully pushed down on that chip and the cycling stopped...

#19 9 years ago

good find.but I would still buy a new one. joe

#20 9 years ago

Never mind...spoke too soon

#21 9 years ago

Ok...well, I am still a little baffled. There may be an issue with the 10 opto board, but here is the other weird thing the pin is doing. Even with the opto board unplugged, in attract mode or while playing a game the solenoid that kicks the ball out of the ball lock hole randomly fires, and it always fires twice. Never had that happen before the opto problem. I imagine they are connected, but it does lead me to think that maybe the issue is elsewhere...why would an issue with the opto board cause that solenoid to keep randomly firing?

#22 9 years ago

Sound like the opto in the ball lock is triggering. If the game sees a ball in the lock during attract mode it is going to kick it out so that it goes back down to the main trough for the next player.

#23 9 years ago
Quoted from LOTR_breath:

It could certainly be the 10 opto board. But, if you are correct that you are reading 31.5 vac on a 12vdc line, that is an obvious problem.

So just to make sure I am measuring it correctly...I switched my multimeter to ACV 200, placed the red lead on the 12V part of the connector, and the black lead on the ground of the connector.

Took another reading this morning and still 31.5 consistently.

#24 9 years ago
Quoted from LOTR_breath:

Sound like the opto in the ball lock is triggering. If the game sees a ball in the lock during attract mode it is going to kick it out so that it goes back down to the main trough for the next player.

Ah ha...I didn't realize there was an opto in the ball lock...I thought it was a physical switch...

#25 9 years ago

Ok...I don't know if this has anything to do with it or not. Switch 88 (lower lock) is in the same column as all of the optos with issues - 88 is not an opto, it is a physical switch. When I try to do a single switch test on 88 it does not register...but if I go to the switch edge test and hit 88 it triggers the whole column.

Again, not sure if this could have anything to do with it, just throwing stuff out there. Is it just not registering in single because the whole column has issues?

Thoughts?

#26 9 years ago

Ok...final thought before someone hopefully chimes in. In single stitch test switch 88 triggers all of the other individual switches in that column. When I try to test just 88 nothing happens with 88 but all the other switches in column trigger on the screen diagram. Could switch 88 somehow be the culprit with my problem? If so...any ideas what I need to do to fix it?

#28 9 years ago
Quoted from brucipher:

So just to make sure I am measuring it correctly...I switched my multimeter to ACV 200, placed the red lead on the 12V part of the connector, and the black lead on the ground of the connector.
Took another reading this morning and still 31.5 consistently.

Stop looking at the other stuff and figure this out. There should be NO ac voltage on the 12 volts! Swap out the driver board with a working one and see if the problem goes away.

#29 9 years ago
Quoted from brucipher:

So just to make sure I am measuring it correctly...I switched my multimeter to ACV 200, placed the red lead on the 12V part of the connector, and the black lead on the ground of the connector.

Took another reading this morning and still 31.5 consistently.

Let's start by making sure you don't have a meter or technique issue (although the readings below are possible, they are pretty unlikely). Get a 9 volt battery and check across it in DC and then AC with your meter and see what the readings are.

Also what brand/type of meter are you using?

Quoted from brucipher:

Setting DCV 20 on multimeter: 14.6
Setting ACV 200 on multimeter: 31.5

#30 9 years ago

OK, so 88 is a switch, not an opto. My mistake. You do have a switch matrix issue. Possible root causes are a failed diode, a diode on backwards, switch wires soldered to the wrong lugs on the switch, etc. And also do what TerryB suggested. It does seem unlikely that you would have that huge amount of AC ripple on a DC line.

#31 9 years ago
Quoted from terryb:

Let's start by making sure you don't have a meter or technique issue (although the readings below are possible, they are pretty unlikely). Get a 9 volt battery and check across it in DC and then AC with your meter and see what the readings are.
Also what brand/type of meter are you using?

Ok...So don't judge me, but I have a super cheap multimeter from harbor freight...i know, I know, I need invest a good meter

I did the 9 volt battery test and here is what I got:

Dcv: 9.56
Acv: 20.2

So I am guessing that is not normal for ac and my meter is a worthless piece of junk.

#33 9 years ago
Quoted from brucipher:

So I am guessing that is not normal for ac and my meter is a worthless piece of junk.

You are correct. At least i'ts working on DC, so we'll go from there.

Firstly your opto board is shot. Even if it is working now it won't be for long. So order a new board and remove it from the circuit for the following tests.

With the board removed test switch 88 and see what happens.

1 week later
#34 9 years ago
Quoted from terryb:

You are correct. At least i'ts working on DC, so we'll go from there.
Firstly your opto board is shot. Even if it is working now it won't be for long. So order a new board and remove it from the circuit for the following tests.
With the board removed test switch 88 and see what happens.

Ok...life's been busy but I am finally back to working on this. When I disconnect the opto board and try switch 88 nothing happens. It just stays open.

#35 9 years ago
Quoted from brucipher:

When I try to do a single switch test on 88 it does not register...but if I go to the switch edge test and hit 88 it triggers the whole column.

Does switch 88 still trigger the whole column?

Also provide a photo of the opto board with the connectors installed. I'm not sure on TZ if removing the connectors breaks the column/row circuits (normally it doesn't, but you never know).

#36 9 years ago
Quoted from terryb:

Does switch 88 still trigger the whole column?
Also provide a photo of the opto board with the connectors installed. I'm not sure on TZ if removing the connectors breaks the column/row circuits (normally it doesn't, but you never know).

It doesn't. Disconnecting the opto boards leaves the row/column circuits complete - other switches will still work fine.

#37 9 years ago

No, it doesn't trigger the whole column...with the board unplugged switch 88 does nothing.

Here is a pic...

IMG_20141025_131929.jpgIMG_20141025_131929.jpg
#38 9 years ago
Quoted from Coyote:

It doesn't. Disconnecting the opto boards leaves the row/column circuits complete - other switches will still work fine.

Thanks Coyote. That's what I figured, but didn't want to assume anything.

Quoted from brucipher:

No, it doesn't trigger the whole column...with the board unplugged switch 88 does nothing.

Sounds like two issues then. As I said before the opto board is fried, plus you've got a switch that isn't working, broken wire, etc. on switch 88. Replace the opto board and then go from there.

#39 9 years ago

Ok...will do. Weird...now none of the switches in that column work even with the board plugged in...

#40 9 years ago

I'd add -
With the opto board disconnected, do ANY switches on Column 8 work?

#41 9 years ago

I'll have to look at the switch matrix but I think column 8 is all optos except 88.

#42 9 years ago
Quoted from brucipher:

I'll have to look at the switch matrix but I think column 8 is all optos except 88.

You could be right - I may be thinking of Row 7 (something I had an issue with a few weeks ago.)

#43 9 years ago
Quoted from brucipher:

Ok...will do. Weird...now none of the switches in that column work even with the board plugged in...

You've broken a wire or pulled one out of the connector. Check the CPU connector and the opto connector. Tug lightly on the wires and see if they easily pull loose.

1 week later
#44 9 years ago
Quoted from terryb:

You've broken a wire or pulled one out of the connector. Check the CPU connector and the opto connector. Tug lightly on the wires and see if they easily pull loose.

Ok. I am back! Got the new opto board installed and still having the issues...none of the column 8 switches are registering. When I test an opto I see it register on my new opto board, but not in the test menu. Does this probably mean it is something in the backbox? How do I determine what connectors to check in the backbox?

Thank you!

#45 9 years ago

Page 3-29 of the Twilight Zone manual shows connections on the CPU board. J206 and J208 are the connectors for the columns and rows of the playfield switches.

Page 3-16 shows how the opto board connects to the CPU board. The relevant pins on the CPU board are:

  • J206-9, green-gray, switch column 8
  • J206-7, green-viot, switch column 7
  • J208-X, white-XXX, switch rows 1-7

If you disconnect J206 and J208, you can use a wire in switch test mode to connects rows to columns and determine if the problem is on or off of the CPU board. http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC#Switch_Matrix_Problems

If there is a problem on the CPU board, it coiuld be caused by battery corrosion. is there any correction under the batteries?

#46 9 years ago
Quoted from mot:

Page 3-29 of the Twilight Zone manual shows connections on the CPU board. J206 and J208 are the connectors for the columns and rows of the playfield switches.
Page 3-16 shows how the opto board connects to the CPU board. The relevant pins on the CPU board are:

J206-9, green-gray, switch column 8
J206-7, green-viot, switch column 7
J208-X, white-XXX, switch rows 1-7

If you disconnect J206 and J208, you can use a wire in switch test mode to connects rows to columns and determine if the problem is on or off of the CPU board. http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC#Switch_Matrix_Problems
If there is a problem on the CPU board, it coiuld be caused by battery corrosion. is there any correction under the batteries?

Thank you so much. I am always amazed by the generous help I receive on pinside.

I will definitely try the above test when I have some free time. I will keep you posted!

#47 9 years ago

I just re-read through this whole thread to see if I missed anything.

The green-gray wire for switch column 8 seems to be causing you problems, but because that column is almost entirely optos, the wiring should be really simple.

  • one end is at J206-9 on the CPU board
  • it passes through J5-3 on the opto board (the connector has wires coming in and out)
  • the other end is at switch 88, lower lock

I could be wrong about that, but I can't see why the wire would run anywhere beyond those three places.

In either case, you should be able to test for continuity between those three places, or particularly between switch 88 and the CPU board. I have a feeling that it's not going to buzz, meaning your problem is in the playfield and not the board, but I'm not sure why...

#48 9 years ago

Did you see my opto thread on my Roadshow the other day? All my optos in switch test mode were flashing on-off-on-off-on-off. Is this what you're seeing as well? If so, pretty sure I know what is wrong.

Dan

Edit: Okay, I just saw your video. You have the issue I was having. Cold solder joint on one of the legs of the big capacitor C30. Could also be a cold solder on the BR in that area or the connector right there. This is causing you to not always get the voltage you need at the optos themselves, which causes them to flicker on-off-on-off back to the switch matrix. Luckily this area of the driver board is a very simple circuit. A cap, a bridge, a connector, and TP1.

Here is my thread with the similar issue.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/roadshow-opto-issues#post-1941054

Here is what I added to the Pinwiki after having the issue:
http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC#.22Jittery.22_Opto_Switches

#49 9 years ago

Most likely the column 8 flickering issue has been solved with the new opto board. Column 8 not working at all was interjected during the troubleshooting process. Try the jumpers as mot suggested above. If that works then check the wiring for column 8 as I explained above.

#50 9 years ago

Something else to consider that's specific to TZ ...

The clock strobes off the aux 8 driver PCB ... if there are ANY issues with that board, the ribbon cable to that board, or within the clock itself, you can get all kinds of switch matrix havoc.

With very few exceptions, every single TZ clock opto board (including the factory board) connects the opto receivers directly to the switch row returns, strobed off the column 9 strobe from the aux 8 driver PCB.

Imagine the havoc with phantom signals getting into the other switch column row returns from the various clock optos ...

Easiest thing to do ... if you're trying to diagnose matrix issues : unplug the clock until you have the matrix working properly ... then plug the clock back in and solve any more issues you have there.

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