(Topic ID: 180337)

TECH: Theatre of Magic trunk motor

By GreenMachine19

4 years ago


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  • 32 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by GreenMachine19
  • Topic is favorited by 11 Pinsiders

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#1 4 years ago

I started this as a post in the ToM club thread but have decided to give it its own thread. Let me start by saying that I have this mental disorder where I think I need to buy up repair parts for games that I think are unobtainium. When I first purchased ToM I started researching what parts are hard to come by. The biggest concern was the gearbox/motor part number 14-8018. Add an MC at the end for just the motor. The entire assembly can still be had for 269.99 at Marco's site. Another different style can be had for 230.00 from the pinball resource. I believe this was probably made in China based off of the stock original. Just the motor can be had for 85.00 from Kimball's pinballs. I bought the one from PBR to save a few bucks I also bought the Kimballs motor for 50.00 at the time. I liked the idea of having a complete assembly and a ready service spare to minimize downtime. I figured once the original died I could refurb with the motor and be all set. I played and enjoyed my game for a few years before I finally decided to do a full tear down resto. At the completion of the restore I had issues with the trunk. I did some troubleshooting and narrowed it down to the motor. It is 22 years old and has degraded over time in performance and also got loaded with coil dust and what appears to be a oily residue from the super lube i used to regrease the gearbox. I disassembled at cleaned the motor with Lectra Clean 2, then alcohol to get rid of the residue. No that I know what the problem was I likely could have just cleaned without taking it apart.

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#2 4 years ago

When the issue originally occurred I replaced with the PBR gearbox and noticed the trunk spins noticeably faster than what I was used to. I don't know if this is on purpose or was it just that the stock motor was tired. So because this is what I do for a living, I tested it. And I found that the complete stock setup powered up the bench produced on average 13.5 rpm in both directions. Tested it several times for repeatability. Here's the specs. You need a 12 vdc motor with a 2.3mm output shaft. The mounting holes need to be 16 mm center to center. The stock nameplate ECM 6332 12 vdc. 4/95 20 rpm 14-8018 POS/POS CCW rotation.

#3 4 years ago

I decided to refurb my original gearbox with th motor I bought from kimballs as I had originally planned only to find out that the gear pitch is wrong. The gear had a smaller OD so it lacked the appropriate tooth engagement. So installed in the game the teeth just partially worked but skipped a lot. Otherwise a nice replacement. The output shaft is smooth so the original gear will not press fit like the original so it's useless. Unless of course you have a way "dimple" the shaft in order to deform it to allow a press fit. Maybe smash it in a vice to make it work? Essentially the shaft OD is smaller that the stock hardened gears ID. Too sloppy. $85.00 for a motor that you cannot use. I made no attempt to get any kind of refund, as I purchased the motor years ago and didn't try to use it till now. No hard feelings.

#4 4 years ago

So I decided to set out to find a commercial off the shelf one for one replacement that requires no modification to work in an existing gearbox. I also wanted it to be affordable because everything pinball cost too much. ToM is junk without the trunk and it shouldn't cost $300.00 to fix it for who knows how much longer. And I wanted to pay forward for all the great people in the hobby who have helped me. So I'm doing this for free. You know who you are because you do it for the love of pinball and I'm sure I'm not the only one who you've helped over the years.

#5 4 years ago

This is the stock, tired, old, motor in the gearbox.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/fEDXWebjtvA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

#6 4 years ago

Can't get it to just show up in the thread sorry.

#7 4 years ago

Ok so I'm better at electronics than I am at internet. Here is the replacement that can be had for less than $10 on eBay shipped. It is a Mabuchi RS-385SH. This is apparently a replacement motor for a roomba. If you have the ability to pull your original gear off of the existing shaft and then press it on a new shaft, you are in business. Direct one for one replacement that requires no modification to fit.

#8 4 years ago

This averages 20 to 21 rpm in both directions with numerous retests for repeatability. The search continues for the appropriate replacement output shaft gear. I don't really need it, but I like to horde spares.

#9 4 years ago

Here are the only special tools I used to remove and install the gear.

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#10 4 years ago

More for anybody who's listening. Did some research on the 12T gear that is attached to the motor. I figured out that it is a 48 pitch gear. I've found that a Traxxas #2428 gear for RC cars will fit perfectly with the exception that shaft is 3.2 mm instead of the required 2.3 mm. I was able to get a spacer to make up the difference. I was able to get this stuff at my local neighborhood hobby store. So if you don't have the ability to pull and press gears. This is a viable option. The new gear has a set screw to hold it in place so no need for a press. One small mod I had to do to make it work was grind down the collar a bit so the first gear could slip on.

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#11 4 years ago

More data collected. I calculated that approximate rpm you need to get 20 rpm on the trunk shaft is 12,000. That works out to a 600 to 1 gear ratio. So with a Mabuchi RS-385SH motor, a Traxxas #2428 gear, and the brass spacer listed here, you can repair your original gearbox to its original performance (nameplate). All for less than $15.00.

#12 4 years ago

One would think that you could get the exact gear with a smaller hole in it that could be drilled out as needed?
Awesome work on the roomba motor! I have a few of them here from used roomba's.
Ill have to dig them out and put them in bags.

Its also interesting that the Kinballs motor was not a drop in replacement?
I wonder if he has fixed that issue as of now...?

#13 4 years ago
Quoted from pinballinreno:

Its also interesting that the Kinballs motor was not a drop in replacement?
I wonder if he has fixed that issue as of now...?

I got a TOM trunk motor from kimballs Pinball's maby two years ago and it works great. Plug and play.

#14 4 years ago

Yeah at first glance his motor looked good. Had the whole machine back together and you can hear the gear slipping. Definitely the wrong pitch. Here is the teeth per inch just to see the difference.

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#15 4 years ago

Left mark 14 teeth per inch. 12.5 teeth per inch for the stock gear. Either way 15 bucks or 85 bucks. You can press the original gear on a new motor for less than 10. I didn't have the same luck. Maybe you got a different gear than I did. I didn't talk Kimball's about it because I had made the purchase so long ago. I wasn't going to try to get a refund at this point. Again no hard feelings it just didn't work in my gearbox.

1 week later
#16 4 years ago

Hey GreenMachine,

First of all, thanks for all of your hard work in finding a suitable replacement motor for Theatre of Magic. Secondly, it was a pleasure speaking with you about it this morning.

Here's a video of my trunk in test mode. You can see that the trunk doesn't stop where it should every time. So far, I've cleaned the motor and gearbox, installed a new auto Eddy board, reflowed the trunk motor board, installed an aluminum opto interrupter and cleaned the optos on the GLM opto board.

I think the next step is to replace the motor. Maybe you or someone else might be able to spot something that I missed. Hopefully I can get this game up and running soon

#17 4 years ago

If you are ever up my way and want to earn some extra $, I would love my motor and gearbox overhauled. I have had it on my to do lidt since I purchased the upgraded trunk boards but just don't seem to find the time.

#18 4 years ago
Quoted from Tres:

I think the next step is to replace the motor. Maybe you or someone else might be able to spot something that I missed. Hopefully I can get this game up and running soon

I think I know what your problem is and I don't think it's motor related. If you watch closely when the opto interupter goes past each opto it actually goes past the switch. When you are testing the light comes on then goes off because the motor kept spinning after it "sees" the switch. Then you try to push it to go in the other direction but none of the switch lights are lit. So the CPU doesn't know where the trunk is and does nothing. You hit the button again and the trunk spins until it "sees" the next switch. How close to the opto board is your opto interupter? Is it barely breaking the plane of the opto transmit receive LED's?

#19 4 years ago
Quoted from GreenMachine19:

I think I know what your problem is and I don't think it's motor related. If you watch closely when the opto interupter goes past each opto it actually goes past the switch. When you are testing the light comes on then goes off because the motor kept spinning after it "sees" the switch. Then you try to push it to go in the other direction but none of the switch lights are lit. So the CPU doesn't know where the trunk is and does nothing. You hit the button again and the trunk spins until it "sees" the next switch. How close to the opto board is your opto interupter? Is it barely breaking the plane of the opto transmit receive LED's?

Here's a picture of the interrupter. Do you think it needs to be closer to the board?

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#20 4 years ago

I moved the interrupter closer to the board and the problem remains. Here's another video:

#21 4 years ago

That was just my first guess. I wasn't sure but after thinking about it it seems to register pretty consistently. For some reason the motor continues to spin after it registers the switch. It is a very short duration. I think next guess would be to repin the connectors for the motor control board. I think it's at least a possibility that you have a poor connection somewhere causing this issue. Could be the connections from the opto board to the motor. Could be the opto board itself. Is the stock opto board still good? Can it still be used?

#22 4 years ago

I would swap boards and if that doesn't fix it repin all connectors between opto and motor controller.

#23 4 years ago
Quoted from GreenMachine19:

That was just my first guess. I wasn't sure but after thinking about it it seems to register pretty consistently. For some reason the motor continues to spin after it registers the switch. It is a very short duration. I think next guess would be to repin the connectors for the motor control board. I think it's at least a possibility that you have a poor connection somewhere causing this issue. Could be the connections from the opto board to the motor. Could be the opto board itself. Is the stock opto board still good? Can it still be used?

The machine came with the GLM opto board so I don't have the original. I'll start with on repinning the connectors.

Hopefully someone will see this that has had this same issue...

#24 4 years ago
Quoted from msj2222:

If you are ever up my way and want to earn some extra $, I would love my motor and gearbox overhauled. I have had it on my to do lidt since I purchased the upgraded trunk boards but just don't seem to find the time.

I would consider doing this but I don't have a traveling shop. If you wanted to send it to me I could replace the motor and clean and regrease the gearbox and then send it back.

2 weeks later
#25 4 years ago
Quoted from GreenMachine19:

I decided to refurb my original gearbox with th motor I bought from kimballs as I had originally planned only to find out that the gear pitch is wrong. The gear had a smaller OD so it lacked the appropriate tooth engagement. So installed in the game the teeth just partially worked but skipped a lot. Otherwise a nice replacement. The output shaft is smooth so the original gear will not press fit like the original so it's useless. Unless of course you have a way "dimple" the shaft in order to deform it to allow a press fit. Maybe smash it in a vice to make it work? Essentially the shaft OD is smaller that the stock hardened gears ID. Too sloppy. $50.00 for a motor that you cannot use. I made no attempt to get any kind of refund, as I purchased the motor years ago and didn't try to use it till now. No hard feelings.

A friend just mentioned this thread to me so I thought I'd chime in.

I wish you had gotten a hold of me as it sounds like you didn't adjust the gear-lash BEFORE you closed your Gearbox?
I'm petty sure that was part of my emailed installation instructions at that time (I have added to the instructions over the years), if they were not in the instructions I sent I apologize.

Definitely sorry you had a problem with my product as I stand behind all of them.

Kim

#26 4 years ago

I believe you would have stood behind it. I didn't think it fair to bother you with it since I purchased it years ago. My recollection of the transaction was I received just a motor/gear with no instructions, but it was years ago so I'm not sure. I could not get it to work properly so I made a little project out of coming up with a low cost solution. I hope you do not feel I was bad mouthing your product, that was not my intent. I am not selling anything to anyone so this is not an attempt to undercut your business, all I did was provide some information from some data I collected.

#27 4 years ago

The instructions would have been in the email or as an attachment to it - I've never sent printed inst.

While I don't feel you were bad mouthing my product, it certainly didn't paint it in a good light.

It's just frustrating since an email to me and a small amount of adjustment on-your-end would have immediately resolved the gear-skipping issue for you.

Good data overall and well presented - Kudos.

1 month later
#28 4 years ago

Just bought a Theater of Magic and the trunk always has an error. Marco sells the gearbox with motor. It was installed with new opto board and metal interrupter. Still errors and trunk shutdown. Marco motor states "Spec 4036, 1613, 12 VDC, 0.6A, 17 RPM". Thinking the best fix is to convert this opto board to a switch system. The original gearbox with motor sent to KimBall's Pinball's for full workup.

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9 months later
#29 3 years ago

I purchased Ingo's board and a new roomba motor to make sure this all runs forever. I recently took the gearbox apart to replace the motor and give it the once over. Now that its all back together, I noticed that during test mode the trunk sees the opto but stops just after it leaving the switch open. Anyone have any ideas on why it would do that? Of course after it not stopping on the opto, it gets confused and stops working all together. ugh..

1 week later
#30 3 years ago

Did you wire the motor backwards? A guy earlier in this thread had the same symptoms you just described and he had the motor wired backwards.

#31 3 years ago
Quoted from GreenMachine19:

Did you wire the motor backwards? A guy earlier in this thread had the same symptoms you just described and he had the motor wired backwards.

Well, its possible, but on the old motor the red dot was closest to the negative terminal, so I put it back there. I think it would go backwards if it was wrong and its definitely going the right way. I love how fast it goes, but I think its just too fast. There is a possibility that I bought the wrong motor, although it 100% fits and works.

#32 3 years ago

Based on original ToM motor nameplate it should be 20 RPM. With my old motor I was getting 13. Did you watch the videos the guy posted above? Do your symptoms look like this? The final fix was swapping the motor leads for this guy after changing opto boards.

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