(Topic ID: 153354)

Tech - Optos work when close but not from far? - Now Fixed

By cdnpinballer

8 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

View topic image gallery

optos_(resized).jpg
#1 8 years ago

I'm working on a TAF that was working fine and then all of a sudden started showing a credit dot for the bumper opto switch 57 which is just above the mini-flipper.

I pulled the optos and cleaned them. When I put them close together say 1/2 inch distance they register fine, no problem. But if I move them to say 1 inch distance they don't work. I've tried all sorts of things but I can't figure out why they would work fine when close but not when a bit farther away. Any ideas?

#2 8 years ago

It is common for an IR Emitter to fade and not put out enough light to trigger the receiver.

Best thing you can do (if you don't have a spare) is swap the emitter with one in another position to see if the problem moves.

You can also use a digital camera or cell phone camera to see how much light it is putting out compared to others. It should show up as a light pink/purpleish light in your camera but usually only looking straight at them since they are usually very narrow beams.

#3 8 years ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

You can also use a digital camera or cell phone camera to see how much light it is putting out compared to others. It should show up as a light pink/purpleish light in your camera but usually only looking straight at them since they are usually very narrow beams.

I understand that you can see these light up with a camera that doesn't block IR light, and yes there is a certain cool factor to it if you don't already know this ... but for troubleshooting it's not really that useful. The best way to check the transmitter is to put your volt meter across it and measure it's voltage drop, this is actually faster and easier that trying to look at it and attempt to judge its light level since you don't have to remove the transmitter check it.

Quoted from CactusJack:

It is common for an IR Emitter to fade and not put out enough light to trigger the receiver.

I could be wrong, but I've actually never heard of this in a semiconductor device, they are either on or off. From a purely technical aspect I would find it more common for a connection or failing current limiting resistor to be dropping more voltage than it should which would result in less voltage available to the IR LED, less voltage = less current hence less light from the IR LED.

#4 8 years ago

Well, I work with a lot of equipment that uses both IR reflective and cross beam setups and I can assure you two things:

Light intensity output does diminish (especially when driven at or near their max ratings).

And measuring voltage drop only indicates the LED is still conducting. Very hard to interpret the voltage drop vs. Output except for dead short and open as you mentioned.

True, it is tough to compare the IR ouput when viewed with a compatible camera, but it's about the only non-technical test I could suggest. I have diagnosed plenty of marginal devices that way. It's a quick and easy task. Just not definitive.

#5 8 years ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

And measuring voltage drop only indicates the LED is still conducting. Very hard to interpret the voltage drop vs. Output except for dead short and open as you mentioned.

I'm sorry I have to disagree, since one side or the diode is at or very close to ground potential when turned on, the voltage drop across it will be the remainder of its supplied voltage, since I=E/R the higher this voltage, the higher the current draw and the brighter the LED.

#6 8 years ago
Quoted from Pin_Guy:

I could be wrong, but I've actually never heard of this in a semiconductor device, they are either on or off.

Common failure of LEDs is dimming over time. They often (if not usually) don't burn out, they get dimmer and dimmer. I've seen opto transmitters that were too dim to register at the receiver. Replace the transmitter and all is good.

#7 8 years ago

Thanks for the clarification on the dimming effect of these transmitters, this would mean that the resistance of the diode is changing over time, I would be very interested to know what the resistance of this particular LED measures, as well as its forward bias break over voltage.

#8 8 years ago

Finally have time to get back to this.

My game was experiencing this intermittent opto problem for some time. So I finally bit the bullet and ordered replacement optos from Pinball Life. I replaced the optos and it was still not working. So I decided to remove them and test them free-hand by putting them together and seeing how far apart I could get until they did not register. I got to about a half inch until they would no longer register. That's where I am at, these are brand new optos and I have no idea why they work in close proximity like a half inch apart but not at 1 inch. Makes no sense to me. I took a phone and put it on camera setting the emitter side is shining bright no problem there.

Any other ideas?

#9 8 years ago

Did you replace both the transmitter and receiver, and have you measured the voltage across the transmitter yet?

Quoted from Pin_Guy:

I would find it more common for a connection or failing current limiting resistor to be dropping more voltage than it should which would result in less voltage available to the IR LED, less voltage = less current hence less light from the IR LED.

#10 8 years ago

Yes, I replaced them both.

Should I measure voltage on the receiver or emitter side or does it matter?

#11 8 years ago

From your quote it looks like I should measure from the emitter (transmitter) side?

#12 8 years ago

Voltage on the transmitter between A and K.

#13 8 years ago

Their wavelength also matters. When in doubt, replace the pair with matching wavelength pairs.

#14 8 years ago

I would have once agreed that optos don't "fade" with time until I read this in a Sharp Optoelectronics datatsheet:

optos_(resized).jpgoptos_(resized).jpg

The machines we are all working on are in the main WELL past five years old so it seems LED degradation is a fact according to Sharp anyway.

#15 8 years ago

If you have replaced the optos then it's time to start investigating the opto driver board. This is the 7 or 10 opto board. Measuring voltage across the transmitter may not tell you much since it's only about a volt there. The 12v is input into the opto board.

#16 8 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

This is the 7 or 10 opto board. Measuring voltage across the transmitter may not tell you much since it's only about a volt there. The 12v is input into the opto board.

True, it can be a problem on the opto board, or wiring connectors. I typically don't start with measuring the input to the opto board since if it's bad you will have more than one bad opto and likely a message on the DMD stating to check your 12V, but it's an easy to check to make and while you have your meter out anyway, it doesn't hurt to check it.

Since you have to start someplace, I usually start with what doesn't work and work my way back towards things that do work. Yes there is only a small voltage on the LED as it's rated voltage is 1.7V, but if there is 1.2V on the LED, I'm sure it will be too dim to operate; if it's low, work back to find why the voltage is so low, how much voltage is leaving the driver for this specific LED? If that voltage is low there is only 1 component that can make a single opto voltage low and that's the current limiting resistor. So you check your voltage on the resistor, if its good you know it's the header or connector pin is causing the problem.

#17 8 years ago

I've been away and haven't had a chance to get into this. I should have an opportunity to break out the meter and poke around tomorrow (friday) and will report back then or on the weekend. Thanks to all for the input thus far.

#18 8 years ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

Light intensity output does diminish (especially when driven at or near their max ratings).

I also think the older LEDs used some IR-reactive epoxy; which leads to the LED's own lens to become opaque to IR light.
I go SO tired of debugging Opto issues on my STNG; that I went in and replaced every opto with a new emitter. Gone are those brownish lenses.... In their place; blue clear lenses.

It wasn't that expensive - I ordered like 30 of them from Digikey at a good price. The hardest part was getting at the optos in the machine.

Also; keep in mind that most light already has IR in it's spectrum - Sunlight, Fluorescent tubes, incandescent ... that can play a role in your test procedure unless you are testing in the dark.

#19 8 years ago

And some LED flashlights don't trigger optos at all.

#20 8 years ago

Leds are generally a single wavelength

4 weeks later
#21 8 years ago

Alright so I am finally getting back to opening up my TAF after over a month.... Some things came up and we went on a family vacation during that time but this morning I had an hour to check things out.

I checked out the voltage on the opto's...

On the opto emitter side I have ground & 1.3 volts. However, in between the PCB and the opto is a 2 pin male/female connector to enable an OP to easily remove/replace the opto. On the PCB side of this connector I have ground and +13v. I'm thinking I should have +13v at the opto so maybe I have a poor connection at this 2 wire connector causing my low voltage of 1.3v at the opto.... ?

On the opto receiver side I get +13v and + 4v at the connector and opto so that all seems fine...

I also pulled the 7 opto PCB and examined the schematics. It isn't really spelled out (at least to me) which opto relates to switch # 57 - the problem opto. Might anyone have any idea what opto on this PCB relates to Switch #57? The LED on the opto board is on and working fine which confirms my + 12v working fine.

I guess next step for me is to replace the 2 round male/female pins connecting the opto to the 7 opto PCB...

I'll try that and report back.

#22 8 years ago

From reading the previous posts it seems like I should have around a volt at the transmitter? I have 1.35 volts so maybe the connector is not my problem... hummm.....

#23 8 years ago

Start working your way back to the board as mark said.
That is my best idea as well.
It was also a great idea to dismount them both and hold them close to insure they trigger. Sometimes the bulb is mounted not perfectly square with the board or the plastic holders get bent allowing them to work and not be seen by each other.

#24 8 years ago

This 1.35V -- is it measured directly across the emitter pins?
If so -- as an emitter, depending on the specific device used - there would be upto about a 1.7V drop across the opto. The 1.35 does not sound unreasonable at all. If you were to put 13V directly across the emitter, it would put out one brilliant pulse of light... then nothing. But since it would be in the IR range, I doubt you would see the pulse.

There should be a current limiting resistor between that 13V source and the LED. This will limit the maximum current through the LED. In the process of limiting the current, there will be a voltage drop across the resistor. If you were to measure this voltage across this resistor - it would be 13 - 1.35 = ~11.65V.

#25 8 years ago

First off thanks to all you guys sticking with me and helping me in trying to solve this strange problem.

I measured voltage again a moment ago across the emitter pins A & K on the rear of the opto as Pin_Guy suggested and G-P-E referenced above. The reading is 1.27V or sometimes 1.28V.

However, when I put my DMM black lead on the cabinet ground braid and red to the emitter pin the reading is 1.33 - 1.35V, that's where I got the 1.35V from.

The current limiting resistor makes sense to step down the voltage from 13V to 1.27 - 1.35V and I can see how 13V would fry the LED transmitter. So to me the LED transmitter is powered appropriately and should work as designed but I've continued trying to move them farther apart maybe an inch distance and tried and tried to make the optos register by moving them around and I get nothing.....

#26 8 years ago
Quoted from cdnpinballer:

the current limiting resistor makes sense to step down the voltage from 13V to 1.27 - 1.35V

The difference you see is the additional .08 voltage drop across the LED itself, this is a common amount of loss for a working LED. The next measurement I would make is the voltage at the current limiting resistor to your ground braid, the difference between that point and the 1.35V you measured at the LED is the combined total loss of all cables, connectors, etc... this should be a negligible amount. Another good check is to see what the voltage on the other current limiters are since they are driven by the same source, power the same type LEDs and have similar return paths, they should all be close to the same voltage readings.

10 months later
#27 7 years ago

A year later and I am still trying to fix this problem. I replaced the opto's again with new emitter/receiver along with reflowing solder on the 7 opto switch board header pins and replaced the connector pins still no improvement. The opto's still work when closer together, maybe 1/2 inch but any farther and they do not register. I'm completely baffled...

#28 7 years ago
Quoted from cdnpinballer:

A year later and I am still trying to fix this problem. I replaced the opto's again with new emitter/receiver along with reflowing solder on the 7 opto switch board header pins and replaced the connector pins still no improvement. The opto's still work when closer together, maybe 1/2 inch but any farther and they do not register. I'm completely baffled...

Have you replaced the LM339s on the opto board ?

#29 7 years ago

No, I have not replaced those. I don't have any in my parts bin, unfortunately.

However, my voltage readings:

I read +1.45V across the opto transmitter points A & K. Voltage to ground readings at point A is 1.50V and point K is 52.7mV.

I read 9.4V across the opto receiver points C & E. Voltage to ground at point C is 4.26V and E is 13.7V.

#30 7 years ago
Quoted from cdnpinballer:

No, I have not replaced those. I don't have any in my parts bin, unfortunately.
However, my voltage readings:
I read +1.45V across the opto transmitter points A & K. Voltage to ground readings at point A is 1.50V and point K is 52.7mV.
I read 9.4V across the opto receiver points C & E. Voltage to ground at point C is 4.26V and E is 13.7V.

I think you are putting too much emphasis on the voltages. The LM339 works by converting the analogue signal into a digital one for the switch matrix. Over time the positive switching becomes a little 'muddied' and the switch matrix doesn't get a clean signal.
To be honest if it were my machine the LM339 would have been the next thing I changed after the opto. I have had so many problems with them in the past I ended up buying a lot of 50.

#31 7 years ago

There are opto receiver LEDs out there that are misassembled from the factory. If they are installed according to the markings or lead length, they behave as you are describing. If you've ruled out everything else, switch the leads if possible or unsolder the receiver LED, turn it around 180 degrees, and resolder.

#32 7 years ago

Search for my thread that explains the manufacturing problems with these LEDs

#33 7 years ago
Quoted from stangbat:

unsolder the receiver LED, turn it around 180 degrees, and resolder.

This fixed the problem! Thanks so much for the help guys. Really appreciate it!!

#34 7 years ago

Great that you sorted it out - have a read of this short thread (it explains the background to your issue):

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/how-to-determine-the-c-e-of-black-opto-receiver-leds#post-3538582

5 years later
#35 2 years ago

Thank you so much for documenting this!

It has saved me a huge amount of work as I had EXACTLY the same problem.

After a week of troubleshooting the game was fixed in 5 mins after just reversing the wires on the opto receiver.

Promoted items from Pinside Marketplace and Pinside Shops!
From: $ 33.00
Gameroom - Decorations
Rocket City Pinball
 
$ 29.95
$ 15.00
Pinball Machine
Uberlaser
 
$ 10.00
Playfield - Protection
UpKick Pinball
 
From: $ 1.00
Playfield - Other
Rocket City Pinball
 
14,500
Machine - For Sale
Pleasant Hill, MO
$ 24.00
Various Novelties
Pinball Photos LLC
 
$ 53.99
Eproms
Matt's Basement Arcade
 
$ 24.00
Various Novelties
Pinball Photos LLC
 
8,500
Machine - For Sale
Vancouver, BC
$ 58.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Lermods
 
10,000 (OBO)
Machine - For Sale
Roselle, IL
$ 45.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Twisted Tokens
 
$ 65.00
Cabinet - Armor And Blades
arcade-cabinets.com
 
$ 55.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Twisted Tokens
 
11,000 (OBO)
Machine - For Sale
Hanford, CA
$ 320.00
Playfield - Other
Avid Creations Wireforms
 
$ 119.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Loop Combo Pinball
 
€ 47.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
PPmods
 
$ 26.99
Playfield - Other
Lee's Parts
 
$ 62.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Lermods
 
$ 27.99
Rubber/Silicone
Comet Pinball
 
$ 95.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Twisted Tokens
 
$ 24.25
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
The MOD Couple
 
$ 30.00
Playfield - Other
Avid Creations Wireforms
 
$ 41.99
Lighting - Interactive
Lee's Parts
 
$ 109.99
Lighting - Led
Lighted Pinball Mods
 
From: $ 8.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Twisted Tokens
 
From: $ 55.00
Gameroom - Decorations
Pinball Photos LLC
 
$ 79.99
Cabinet - Armor And Blades
PinGraffix Pinside Shop
 

Reply

Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

Donate to Pinside

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/tech-optos-works-when-close-but-not-from-far and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.