(Topic ID: 91072)

Tech: Leveling Question

By wilsonza

9 years ago


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  • 35 posts
  • 15 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 9 years ago by calvin12
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

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#1 9 years ago

Leveling my new WoZ. The front and back look great so I went to set the incline at 6.5. However, I get different measurements depending on where I measure on the playfield.

Near the flippers:
IMG_0617.JPGIMG_0617.JPG

Near the back ramps:
IMG_0618.JPGIMG_0618.JPG

I haven't moved my other pins to the new house so I can't check them. Is this normal? If so, do you typically level in the front?

-1
#2 9 years ago

Normal for many games. Because both the cabinet AND the playfield are pitched, pitch increases as you go up the playfield. You want to set pitch with the level between the flippers, about even with the factory bubble.

If your factory bubble is off, set the pitch to 6.5 with the level, then adjust the factory bubble to center it.

#3 9 years ago
Quoted from phishrace:

pitch increases as you go up the playfield

I don't think this is correct. On a perfect, non-warped surface, the pitch should read the same, when read at any location (with the level orientation being the same).

#4 9 years ago

You must be sure your level readings are taken with the level in the same orientation. For example if you twist the level it will read differently

-1
#5 9 years ago

Lower the front all the way down. Back all the way up. Level side to side. Done [email protected]

#6 9 years ago

Not at my house. 117 year old concrete basement floor in the area which once had a huge furnace that the concrete was poured around.

-1
#7 9 years ago
Quoted from KenH:

I don't think this is correct. On a perfect, non-warped surface, the pitch should read the same, when read at any location (with the level orientation being the same).

Put a digital level on your BBH and see for yourself. As I said, because both the cabinet and the playfield are pitched, pitch increases as you go up the playfield. You don't even need a level to see this. Look at the cabinet. It's higher in back, right? Now look at the playfield. It's pitched more than the cabinet (compare to the bottom edge of the cab).

Games that are like this can vary by as much as 1 degree or more from top to bottom. On older games, pitch and level can vary by large margins. Some games are so bad, you just have to get it close.

#8 9 years ago
Quoted from phishrace:

As I said, because both the cabinet and the playfield are pitched, pitch increases as you go up the playfield.

I don't think we're understanding what you're trying to say. I know I'm not. If the playfield is not warped, there's no way it can be pitched differently on the same plane between the flippers and at the top. It's a straight line. The pitch has to be the same. The cabinet can certainly be pitched differently than the playfield, but a straight line is a straight line.

#9 9 years ago

All the crap bolted to your playfield is heavy and since the playfield is supported in the very front and near the back it will sag. It sags less in the back because of the playfield pivot/slide mechanism rails which offer support.

#10 9 years ago

I'm not a math guy, so I can't tell you exactly why this is the case. I can tell you I've checked plenty of games and found this to be true on many games. I encourage everyone to check for themselves. Preferably with a digital level. You can still see it with a bubble level, but a digital level (not an app) makes it crystal clear.

#11 9 years ago
Quoted from SealClubber:

All the crap bolted to your playfield is heavy and since the playfield is supported in the very front and near the back it will sag. It sags less in the back because of the playfield pivot/slide mechanism rails which offer support.

It's not about sagging. Brand new games will do this. It's about design geometry (or some other field of math I'm not good at).

#12 9 years ago
Quoted from SealClubber:

All the crap bolted to your playfield is heavy and since the playfield is supported in the very front and near the back it will sag. It sags less in the back because of the playfield pivot/slide mechanism rails which offer support.

Brilliant. That makes perfect sense. Thanks.

#13 9 years ago

What's wrong with using an app vs. a dedicated digital level, just curious?

#14 9 years ago
Quoted from aobrien5:

The pitch has to be the same. The cabinet can certainly be pitched differently than the playfield, but a straight line is a straight line.

I agree with this. A flat surface has to be at the same pitch regardless of the cabinet pitch.

#15 9 years ago
Quoted from phishrace:

Put a digital level on your BBH and see for yourself. As I said, because both the cabinet and the playfield are pitched, pitch increases as you go up the playfield. You don't even need a level to see this. Look at the cabinet. It's higher in back, right? Now look at the playfield. It's pitched more than the cabinet (compare to the bottom edge of the cab).
Games that are like this can vary by as much as 1 degree or more from top to bottom. On older games, pitch and level can vary by large margins. Some games are so bad, you just have to get it close.

games can vary but they *shouldn't*, if they do it does have a warp. the plane of the PF should be the same, its flat, it has nothing to do with the cabinet top edge pitch

#16 9 years ago
Quoted from phishrace:

It's about design geometry (or some other field of math I'm not good at).

you are making that very clear.

#17 9 years ago
Quoted from phishrace:

I'm not a math guy, so I can't tell you exactly why this is the case. I can tell you I've checked plenty of games and found this to be true on many games. I encourage everyone to check for themselves. Preferably with a digital level. You can still see it with a bubble level, but a digital level (not an app) makes it crystal clear.

take a straight edge, or non warped piece of wood, verify its actually not warped, hold in box parallel to the ground check if the pitch of the wood is still 0 everywhere. Hold stick at 45 degrees check it again both ends are 45 degrees regardless of if they are in the box (still at 0 degrees) or not.

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#18 9 years ago
Quoted from calvin12:

you are making that very clear.

I may not be good at math, but levels don't lie. I believe every modern Stern is this way, which I see you don't own any of. OZ is most definitely that way, which is what the original poster was asking about. Are you suggesting his game is defective?

Quoted from calvin12:

take a straight edge, or non warped piece of wood, verify its actually not warped, hold in box parallel to the ground check if the pitch of the wood is still 0 everywhere. Hold stick at 45 degrees check it again both ends are 45 degrees regardless of if they are in the box (still at 0 degrees) or not.

Levels don't lie. Gravity won't let them.

#19 9 years ago
Quoted from westofrome:

What's wrong with using an app vs. a dedicated digital level, just curious?

Accuracy

#20 9 years ago
Quoted from phishrace:

I may not be good at math, but levels don't lie. I believe every modern Stern is this way, which I see you don't own any of. OZ is most definitely that way, which is what the original poster was asking about. Are you suggesting his game is defective?

Levels don't lie. Gravity won't let them.

my games do this too, but its because of sag/warp. a flat plane (playfield) is by definition flat. a plane, be definition exists in a single plane, and has 1 pitch in any direction.

levels lie all the time, digital ones are the worst. they have an accuracy of no better than .1 degree. (for the ones you'd find outside of a lab). Electronic levels also need to be accurately calibrated to level. bubble levels lie, they get bumped and get out a parallel to the edges.

#21 9 years ago
Quoted from calvin12:

my games do this too, but its because of sag/warp. a flat plane (playfield) is by definition flat. a plane, be definition exists in a single plane, and has 1 pitch in any direction.
levels lie all the time, digital ones are the worst. they have an accuracy of no better than .1 degree. (for the ones you'd find outside of a lab). Electronic levels also need to be accurately calibrated to level. bubble levels lie, they get bumped and get out a parallel to the edges.

Forget what I've posted in this thread. The original poster's new OZ is off by .4 degrees from top to bottom. Is his new playfield warped, or is his level inaccurate?

#22 9 years ago

It is possible the PF is warped, but less than 1/2 a degree over three feet, does it really matter? If it does, put some shims under the feet.

#23 9 years ago
Quoted from phishrace:

Normal for many games. Because both the cabinet AND the playfield are pitched, pitch increases as you go up the playfield. You want to set pitch with the level between the flippers, about even with the factory bubble.
If your factory bubble is off, set the pitch to 6.5 with the level, then adjust the factory bubble to center it.

How would you adjust the factory bubble? (One of mine seems to be giving a pitch that's out of step with what the inclinometer is saying)...

#24 9 years ago
Quoted from WOLF:

It is possible the PF is warped, but less than 1/2 a degree over three feet, does it really matter? If it does, put some shims under the feet.

Stern uses simple playfield stiffeners, but they don't really support the playfield. You can see one on the right side of cab in the pic linked below (with the red screws).

http://ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=5237&picno=34885&zoom=1

They mostly just keep the playfield from wobbling side to side. I've used shims in place of the stiffeners to further secure and support the playfield. They keep the playfield rock solid and use the same screws and holes as the stiffeners.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_247885-143-PP836-49L_0__?productId=3133325
(get the hard ones, not the soft ones that look the same)

Quoted from westofrome:

How would you adjust the factory bubble? (One of mine seems to be giving a pitch that's out of step with what the inclinometer is saying)...

On Stern's and WMS games, you can tighten or loosen (preferably tighten) the screws that hold it in place. It doesn't take much of a turn to move the bubble. Not sure on OZ. I leveled one a year ago and I believe the bubble was pretty close to correct. Check the manual to make sure you're using the correct line(s).

#25 9 years ago
Quoted from WOLF:

It is possible the PF is warped, but less than 1/2 a degree over three feet, does it really matter? If it does, put some shims under the feet.

Exactly. And yes the pf is sagged/wraped. That is the definition of it.

#26 9 years ago
Quoted from westofrome:

How would you adjust the factory bubble? (One of mine seems to be giving a pitch that's out of step with what the inclinometer is saying)...

You generally wouldn't bother to. Those are really just to get you close.

#27 9 years ago

Three are 2 of the most common digital levels in pinball. levels can't lie because gravity??

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#28 9 years ago
Quoted from calvin12:

Three are 2 of the most common digital levels in pinball. levels can't lie because gravity??

I didn't say digital levels don't lie. However, if you look at the (non-digital) bubble on the right in the first pic, then look at the display, it looks about right to me. Needs to come up .3 degrees to level the bubble. I've never seen the other level you're suggesting is one of the 'most common digital levels'. A quick search here on Wixey gets zero hits. They may be common in your area, but I've never seen one. I use the Craftsman level and won't go back to analog devices. A tenth of a degree of accuracy is perfect for pinball. Any more accuracy is overkill.

I guarantee you if the original poster used an analog angle finder on his playfield ($10 at Home Depot), he would get the same results. This isn't about whether digital levels are better or not. The guy just wants to know where to set the pitch on his game. Can you help him out?

#29 9 years ago

you said "Levels don't lie. Gravity won't let them" yes they can. I can also show you a bubble level thats off if you like.

#30 9 years ago

I'am all confused now, this thread is confusing to me! So does the Stern bubble have to be centered and pitch at 6.5 on new Sterns, with inclinometer in the middle of the PF? I used the ruler holding the ball in the middle of PF, lift ruler and if leveled the ball goes straight down between flippers.

#31 9 years ago
Quoted from Jeff_PHX_AZ:

So does the Stern bubble have to be centered and pitch at 6.5 on new Sterns, with inclinometer in the middle of the PF? I used the ruler holding the ball in the middle of PF, lift ruler and if leveled the ball goes straight down between flippers.

If you adjust the pitch using the factory bubble, it should be at 6.5 degrees with the bubble centered. The bubble can occasionally be off and are sometimes way off. If you want to check the factory bubble, put your inclinometer on the playfield *between the flippers*, about level side to side with the factory bubble. If the factory bubble is correct, your inclinometer will read about 6.5 degrees. A tenth of a degree off on pitch probably isn't noticeable while playing, but more than a tenth will be noticeable. If you measure any higher on the playfield, it will read steeper. Like the original poster is seeing. Much easier to check pitch using a digital level as an inclinometer is only accurate to a single degree, rather than a tenth of a degree when using a digital level.

Chances are your bubble is close. Never hurts to check though. Especially if the game seems to be playing harder or easier than it should be. Not sure what you're doing with the ruler. Rolling a ball down the playfield tests side to side level, not pitch.

#32 9 years ago

I dont understand the physics or the geometry issues involved, but when I use my craftsman inclinometer on all my games, new or old...I get the same results that phishrace describes. Steeper the higher you measure on the pf....dont know why, dont undertsand why....but I get those results.

#33 9 years ago

Physics / Geometry says that a plane must have the same slope measured anywhere on its surface as long as the measurements are taken parallel to each other. If you get different measurements higher up, the playfield is not a plane - hence it is warped. However - differences of tenths of a degree could certainly be caused by improper measurement - ie. the level must be exactly parallel with the sides of the playfield during each measurement.

#34 9 years ago
Quoted from RacerRik:

However - differences of tenths of a degree could certainly be caused by improper measurement - ie. the level must be exactly parallel with the sides of the playfield during each measurement.

Whether you have a perfectly straight art line to go by or just eyeball is using the side rails for reference, you still get increased pitch as you go up the playfield. It can be as much as a full degree on some games. It's not improper measurement.

I remember you not being a big fan of the Sears level. If you still have it, put it on your AC/DC and see if you don't get the same results.

#35 9 years ago
Quoted from phishrace:

Whether you have a perfectly straight art line to go by or just eyeball is using the side rails for reference, you still get increased pitch as you go up the playfield. It can be as much as a full degree on some games. It's not improper measurement.
I remember you not being a big fan of the Sears level. If you still have it, put it on your AC/DC and see if you don't get the same results.

yes it does change, no one is arguing that. the reason it changes is because the playfield is not flat in the cab, its warped/sagging. if you put a straightedge on your playfield you will see it does not touch the whole way, its due to sag, not the fact the cabinet rails are a different slope then the PF.

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