(Topic ID: 225662)

TECH HELP : NO Sound : Williams System 11B Swords OF Fury


By Atariforever

1 year ago



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  • 27 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 11 months ago by Atariforever
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#1 1 year ago

Williams system 11B: Swords Of Fury
Having some trouble with pinpointing the issue of having no sound on my Swords of Fury.
First: The game works/plays 100% fine only with no sound. The sound worked fine until i swapped out the original power supply board with a Rottendog power supply board. On the initial power up there was no sound. Re-installed original power board and still no sound at all. The game boots /plays fine.

Below is a list of the troubleshooting,so far...
--- At power up of the game there is no " bong sound" for audio board.
--- no sound when SW 1 pressed on MPU
--- I have tried a known "good sound board" from my "Police Force"; with the sound chips switched out in Audio board. It still had no boot up sound or any sounds when playing.
--- The Audio board from Swords of Fury i installed in Police Force [ Roms swapped]and it booted fine but only the voices worked.
-- I swapped the J4 ribbon cable from Police force to rule out a faulty cable. Still no difference.
--- I swapped the J1 cable from from Police Force to rule out that cable. Still no difference.
--- All capacitors on sound board have been replaced . C1,C3,C4,C8,C12,C19,C24,C26,C30,C29,C32
--- The two Audio amps on sound board --U22 & U23 have been replaced with two new TDA2003's
--- i swapped chips U15 with U24 on the MPU . The game boots fine.

Could it be bad sound U21 or U22 on Mpu? or bad Sound Roms on Audio board ...or something else on MPU
Any advice would be appreciated...thanks

#2 1 year ago

I'd want to start here, just because.
Check the CPU board filter capacitor C26 for -12 volts DC.
Check the CPU board filter capacitor C26 for AC ripple (over .75 volts AC).

No corrosion on the MPU board, correct?

#3 1 year ago

Hi

Thanks for the reply.
I removed C26 capacitor to test and figured i would just replace with a new 100uf/35v one.
I re-powered back up the game and it did not make any difference. The game plays fine ; but with no sound.
The cpu board looks in overall great shape , no corrosion. I replaced the battery holder about 3 years ago when i got the machine and it played fine until now.
Attached is a picture of the CPU battery area.

IMG_1030 (resized).JPG
#4 1 year ago
Quoted from Atariforever:

Hi

I removed C26 capacitor to test and figured i would just replace with a new 100uf/35v one.

I didn't say to test or replace C26. I wanted to know the numbers, what is the AC Volts and DC Volts measured at C26?

And.. do you have and know how to use an oscilloscope?

#5 1 year ago

sorry, i misunderstood, I have only a basic digital multimeter.
I do not have an oscilloscope; not a professional repair person, just my own games.
Can you refresh me on how to test for the numbers you need from the capacitor if i do not remove it.

#6 1 year ago
Quoted from Atariforever:

sorry, i misunderstood, I have only a basic digital multimeter.
I do not have an oscilloscope; not a professional repair person, just my own games.
Can you refresh me on how to test for the numbers you need from the capacitor if i do not remove it.

No problem, you can test the voltage with a basic multimeter. Black probe/negative to test point GND (ground) next to battery holder, red probe to positive side of C25, which is on the same side as C26 right next to it. You're grabbing the point because the C25 is flush to the board and you can't get at the leads when installed in the game. Set the meter to DC Volts, take a measurement...then set to AC Volts and take that measurement.

Probably not the problem, but it is always sensible to take the basic measurements before proceeding to more complex stuff. Without an oscope, it may be tough, as you can't see analog audio with a DMM.

#7 1 year ago

The DC measures at 5.01
The AC measures at 10.01

#8 1 year ago
Quoted from Atariforever:

The DC measures at 5.01
The AC measures at 10.01

That's not good. Should be around -12 to -14VDC and the ripple should be around less than half a volt. I do have some doubt that you measured correctly...but can't be certain. We can look at this upstream at the power supply. Put negative lead on ground and positive lead on pin 2 of 3J6. Take the same DC and AC measurements there.

#9 1 year ago

Thank you for your patience.
I did get the DC readings at
C25 at 14.43
original power board pin 2 3j6 at 14.88
rottendog power board pin 2 3j6 at 14.72
I checked several times and the readings were pretty close to the above numbers every time
The only AC settings on my meter has either 200 or 750 . I cannot get any readings with either. Would these settings be to high to get the small reading needed for the AC?

#10 1 year ago

Your welcome. Those measurements will do. Your -12V audio power is ok.

I just re-read the first post....from what you are saying, no matter what combination boards installed you never get any sounds at all from the Swords game, not even the power up bong, correct? I guess the first time I read, I may have been confused as to which game you were working in when you said that you got partial sound with a board from SOF installed in Police Force.

If there is absolutely no sound at all, at this point I would want to confirm that the speaker, volume control, amp and all the associated wiring is ok:

turn the volume control up all the way, and momentarily touch a powered-on AC soldering pencil on the center tap of the volume control (do NOT use a solder iron over 40 watts, and a cordless soldering will not work for this test). If you hear a low hum, this means the power amplifier (U1, TDA2002), the volume control, the speakers, and the sound cabling are all working.

#11 1 year ago

Yes, correct, there is no power up "bong" or any sounds/music while playing the "Swords of Fury".
A point i forgot to mention. I do have the volume control knob turned completely down because of a loud hum that started; after the sound went. It sounds like the normal "Williams hum" but much louder.
The volume control knob do increase/decrease the "hum" sound on the speakers when used. Even when knob is completely turned down the hum is present; I do hear static as well when knob turned up/down.
The test you asked me to do is very hard to hear the results because when i turn the control knob up on max the "hum" sound is extremely loud.

#12 1 year ago

Yes, correct, there is no power up "bong" or any sounds/music while playing the "Swords of Fury".
A point i forgot to mention. I do have the volume control knob turned completely down because of a loud hum that started; after the sound went. It sounds like the normal "Williams hum" but much louder.
The volume control knob do increase/decrease the "hum" sound on the speakers when used. Even when knob is completely turned down the hum is present; I do hear static as well when knob turned up/down.
The test you asked me to do is very hard to hear the results because when i turn the control knob up on max the "hum" sound is extremely loud.
</blockquote

I've got a Swords of fury pinball.
Try to check the plugs are all routed correctly to the sound board. Push all the wires home into the Idc sockets with a small flat blade screw driver. Check the earth straps in the back box. Check for any screws that may be trapped behind the CPU and sound boards. It sounds a bit like the amp is faulty, but the other simple checks might help.

#13 1 year ago
Quoted from AndyBadCatsUK:

It sounds a bit like the amp is faulty

Think these might rule that out.

Quoted from Atariforever:

--- I have tried a known "good sound board" from my "Police Force"

Quoted from Atariforever:

--- The two Audio amps on sound board --U22 &amp; U23 have been replaced with two new TDA2003's

Most of these Sys 11s will have some degree of hum, and probably static or scratching sounds from the pots if they are original.

Maybe you can glean some info from this thread. (Note that the end result was actually a backwards ribbon cable)
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/williams-system-11-missing-background-music-investigation/page/2

#14 1 year ago

I have re checked all the cables/ribbon to the sound board in the "Swords of Fury"; they are all correct. No backwards ribbon/etc.
I also have a system 11b "Police Force" and "Big Guns" and the cables/ribbon are all identical on all the three machines. The "PF" and"BG" work perfect with sound.
Just to clarify - i only keep the sound knob turned down to minimize the loud hum. There is no boot up "bong" or any sound [ music/sound/voice] when "SOF" is on ; only the hum noise.

#15 1 year ago

I'm fairly sure that most, if not all, System 11 games that have the D-11581 sound board (or variant) provide a "bong" at boot. That "bong" comes from the sound board. So, no bong, sound board issue.

I recommend getting the battery holder off of that board ASAP. System 11 boards are tough to replace and ALL batteries leak.

If you want to send both boards to me along with the ribbon, I can repair whatever is not working, and install NVRAM on the MPU for you. Drop me a PM if that works for you.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#16 1 year ago

I have re-checked the battery holder area. Everything looks fine. No corrosion .The battery holder was replaced 2-3 years ago.New batteries every year.

#17 1 year ago

double then triple check that all the 4 wire cables are on in the correct spots and no wires are pulled out. Those ones send the sound from the MPU to the sound board and out the sound board to the volume knob then from the amp to the speakers. One broken wire going to the volume trip pot will cut ALL the sound in the game, same if one of the speaker wires got yanked.

#18 1 year ago

re-checked the four wire cables J1&J2 ;both seem fine.
I even swapped the J1 cable from sound board to MPU with the cable from my "Big guns". Both work fine in "BG" ; I tried the J1 cable from "BG" in "Swords " and still no difference.

#19 1 year ago

So now double check that all the voltages are making it to the sound board. 5, 12 and NEGATIVE 12. That negative 12 is used for the speech chips and the amplifiers and goes to both the background sound board AND the MPU board sound. Maybe yanked the wire out of the power supply end of the connector.
Semi-related I have seen multiple times on the 11C version of the power supply where the 2 pins that supply -12 volts one has the trace on the front of the board under the plastic part of the molex connector have a cold solder joint that wasn't evident from the back of the board that caused a loss of sounds. So not applicable in exactly this situation, but a loss of -12 will cause no sounds no matter where the -12 is lost.

#20 1 year ago

first i checked the test points on the Rottendog power supply
5v =5.06
+12= 12.54
-12 -14.47

I believe i used the correct testing area to get readings on the sound board
5v at capacitor C23 = 5.04
+12v at capacitor C22 = 12.29
-12v at capacitor C20 = -14.20
Would this be the correct testing area?

1 week later
#21 1 year ago

.

#22 11 months ago

just wondering, any new suggestions?

#23 11 months ago

Turn up the volume pot to as high as you can stand it.

Press the sound test button on the CPU (SW1). What do you hear?
-report back here
Now, reboot the game and go to the actual menu driven sound tests. Hear anything? Even faintly? Possibly very faint blips and bleeps.
-report back here
Also, I would definitely check the Ohms of all the speakers. (The Ohms rating should be printed on each speaker). The hum could point to a bad speaker. If you find it, remove it to help your troubleshooting along.

#24 11 months ago

i turned the pot up high- pressed sw1 - could not hear any difference in sound [ no beeps/bong]- only the very loud hum
rebooted game , went to sound test - no difference on any setting pressed. - only the loud hum. Could not tell of any faint sounds/blips sounds because of the hum sound. If any occurred, i could not hear them.
I checked the Ohms . Both the cabinet speaker and back board is rated at 4ohms. The readings i received on both was 2.4. . I also checked my known working speakers in my"Big Guns"; which has the identical speakers and got the exact readings of 2.4.

#25 11 months ago
Quoted from Atariforever:

i turned the pot up high- pressed sw1 - could not hear any difference in sound [ no beeps/bong]- only the very loud hum
rebooted game , went to sound test - no difference on any setting pressed. - only the loud hum. Could not tell of any faint sounds/blips sounds because of the hum sound. If any occurred, i could not hear them.
I checked the Ohms . Both the cabinet speaker and back board is rated at 4ohms. The readings i received on both was 2.4. . I also checked my known working speakers in my"Big Guns"; which has the identical speakers and got the exact readings of 2.4.

Make sure you disconnect the speaker. When you measure the speaker connected in circuit you are measuring combined resistance of the speaker and amplifier. The problem is not the speaker. The best way to troubleshoot audio is to signal trace through the circuit with an oscillospope.

#26 11 months ago

You are going to need to engage the assistance of a pro.
This is not a simple issue that can be worked through via online help.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#27 11 months ago

I took the readings again; with the speakers disconnected and both readings were 3.9
I unfortunately do not own a oscilloscope.

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