Tech Help Request: A-B-C-D lights turn on other lights (SOLVED!)

(bump)
Looking for help from someone who has solved a strange lane change/wiring/switch issue like this one.
-mof

#3 10 years ago

MOF

mof

Here's some additional info:

Geocab on Pinside was kind enough to make a movie to show me how it should work.

His example of things working right:
http://www.youtube.com/embed/4Ydvj3xdP9A

Apparently the correct behavior is this:

1. drop 3 bank targets lites "3x" in left inlane
2. s-o-r-c-e-r-e-r lites "special" in outlane
3. locking ball scores "2x" lit, with 3x 5x flashing
4. slings swaps out the "special" in left outlane to right outlane/
5. flippers do not swap the lights back and forth

Correct game instructions are here to clarify:
http://www.youtube.com/embed/FdnZ00C5ww8&sns

#4 10 years ago

LTG

Pinside member

Hopkins, MN

12y 191K 56,991 24 7

If opto couplers on a board in the head handle lane change stuff, I'd start there.

LTG : )

#5 10 years ago

MOF

mof

Quoted from LTG:
If opto couplers on a board in the head handle lane change stuff, I'd start there.
LTG : )

Hmmm... Mine has no coupler plugged into 1J9.
I checked ipdb... seems correct to not have one.
http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=2242&picno=53370
I don't know whether that's how Sorcerer is configured or not. I'll ask in the Sorcerer forum.
thanks!
-mof

#6 10 years ago

JCW

LOTR_breath

Pinside member

Seems fairly straightforward to me. Troubleshoot this just like a switch matrix problem, only you have a lamp matrix problem. Refer to your lamp matrix diagram and look to see what rows or columns are in common with the top rollovers and the lamps that are not supposed to be coming on. Then physically inspect everything associated with those sockets, i.e, wiring, diode orientation, shorted or open diode, diode lug broken, etc. You might find this one time consuming to solve but you will solve it. Good luck!

#7 10 years ago

MOF

mof

Quoted from LOTR_breath:
Seems fairly straightforward to me. Troubleshoot this just like a switch matrix problem, only you have a lamp matrix problem. Refer to your lamp matrix diagram and look to see what rows or columns are in common with the top rollovers and the lamps that are not supposed to be coming on. Then physically inspect everything associated with those sockets, i.e, wiring, diode orientation, shorted or open diode, diode lug broken, etc. You might find this one time consuming to solve but you will solve it. Good luck!

Interesting, so you'd check the CPU first? I think that makes the most sense, since all the lights actually work, the problem is (per the movie) that they keep rotating based on a right flipper hit.

Now that I am reviewing the spec, it looks like those lights are all ... 1J7 column 4. Nice ! I feel like I have a lead now... 1J7-4 !!! I'm coming for you!

I'm wondering why the right flipper would be part of the problem though -- since the right flipper on this game ONLY changes the upper PF A-B-C-D lights, and nothing else. Right flipper adjusts (now I'm guessing) 1J7-3. I wondering if ... 1J7-3 is somehow affecting 1J7-4 ???

Can someone offer the type of measurements to take on a switch or lamp matrix problem from the pins down? Like where to put the logic probe/dmm and what to look for? That would be REALLY appreciated. I'll check the spec for the right readings, but the little pointers on "how" and "what" to measure would really be sweet.

thanks!
-mof

#8 10 years ago

JCW

LOTR_breath

Pinside member

The right flipper may not have anything to do with the problem. If you manually trip one of the top lanes and it's green insert lights, does another light come on with it? I would think so. Flipping just rotates the lanes and therefore rotates the other "wrong" lights along with it.

Start with checking every lamp socket in that column 4. Look for a diode that it on backwards, a wire on the wrong lug, etc. I find that 99% of problems like this were caused by something a previous owner did wrong. Also, check all the diodes with a multimeter. Are you familiar with how to do that?

#9 10 years ago

MOF

mof

Quoted from LOTR_breath:
The right flipper may not have anything to do with the problem. If you manually trip one of the top lanes and it's green insert lights, does another light come on with it? I would think so. Flipping just rotates the lanes and therefore rotates the other "wrong" lights along with it.
Start with checking every lamp socket in that column 4. Look for a diode that it on backwards, a wire on the wrong lug, etc. I find that 99% of problems like this were caused by something a previous owner did wrong. Also, check all the diodes with a multimeter. Are you familiar with how to do that?

You are correct, it has nothing to do with the right flipper. I'll update my findings in the OP.

thank you!
-mof

#10 10 years ago

DEA

Richard_BoK

Inactive member

10y 15,400 276

If a diode is bad/shorted on the lamp socket it is visible: the lamp is then much brighter than the rest. It is also not this problem: if it were then "every" column would also trigger the other column, now it is only columns 3/4.

Perhaps some shorted wiring between columns 3 and 4, perhaps on the connector of the CPU.

Otherwise something on the CPU: a bad ic perhaps. I would put the game in lamp test (single lamps), and measure from the connector, the transistors, U53 back to pia U14.

The resistors on the lampdriver circuit tend to get very hot, but that normally leads to a failing column or row. I'd check it all the same.

#11 10 years ago

MOF

mof

Quoted from Richard_BoK:
Perhaps some shorted wiring between columns 3 and 4, perhaps on the connector of the CPU.

Can I ask how to test that?

Quoted from Richard_BoK:
Otherwise something on the CPU: a bad ic perhaps. I would put the game in lamp test (single lamps), and measure from the connector, the transistors, U53 back to pia U14.
The resistors on the lampdriver circuit tend to get very hot, but that normally leads to a failing column or row. I'd check it all the same.

In Lamp test mode "01" every lamp (not in the GI) flashes as expected, I'm not sure there's a single lamp test mode on this machine like on my System 11's.

Can someone point me to a tutorial on how to troubleshoot a lamp matrix issue, or perhaps describe a few of the initial tests so I can get the hang of this?

thanks!
-mof

#12 10 years ago

RPT

Prmailers

Inactive member

High Bridge, NJ

11y 24,150 1,558 19

If you haven't already done so, check to make sure that none of the switches are closed when they should be open.

Common problem.

Makes the switch matrix go crazy.

#13 10 years ago

JCW

LOTR_breath

Pinside member

Been studying your lamp matrix chart. When Extra Ball is lit is All Scores 3x also lit? Likewise Bonus Holdover = All Scores 5x, Demon = Light Below "S", Left Drain = Light Below "R"? If all of the above is true, then you have Yel/Orange wire somewhere touching Yel/Black wire. It could even be that 1J7 pin 3 is shorted to 1J7 pin 4. With power off, disconnect J7 from the board and check with a meter for continuity between those 2 pins. If yes then you are on to something shorting on the board. If no, reconnect the connector and again ck for continuity on those 2 points. If they are now zero ohms then you have wires touching somewhere.

#14 10 years ago

TAB

terryb

Inactive member

Banning, CA

11y 90,150 4,795 14

Quoted from LOTR_breath:
It could even be that 1J7 pin 3 is shorted to 1J7 pin 4. With power off, disconnect J7 from the board and check with a meter for continuity between those 2 pins. If yes then you are on to something shorting on the board. If no, reconnect the connector and again ck for continuity on those 2 points. If they are now zero ohms then you have wires touching somewhere.

Do the above first. If everything is ok then take your brand new logic probe and make sure you have a pulsed signal on all of the columns.

If that's good then make sure you don't have a reversed or shorted diode in column 3.

#15 10 years ago

MOF

mof

Quoted from LOTR_breath:
Been studying your lamp matrix chart. When Extra Ball is lit is All Scores 3x also lit? Likewise Bonus Holdover = All Scores 5x, Demon = Light Below "S", Left Drain = Light Below "R"? If all of the above is true, then you have Yel/Orange wire somewhere touching Yel/Black wire.

Yes. They are touching somewhere.

Quoted from LOTR_breath:
It could even be that 1J7 pin 3 is shorted to 1J7 pin 4. With power off, disconnect J7 from the board and check with a meter for continuity between those 2 pins. If yes then you are on to something shorting on the board. If no, reconnect the connector and again ck for continuity on those 2 points. If they are now zero ohms then you have wires touching somewhere.

I did continuity check of the 1P7-3 and 4, I get a beep. So somewhere... they are touching!

Getting closer...
-mof

#16 10 years ago

MOF

mof

I found a suspicious wire.
White with red AND black on it. That doesn't seem normal.
It was connected from a bulb with a Yellow-Orange to a bulb with a Yellow-Black.
WTF.
Who does this $hit?!?!?!

Unsoldered it, no more short, but now 8 lights don't light up (all on black-yellow). Will report back soon. This suggests to me that Yellow-back wasn't working for some hacker, and he strung up yellow-back off of yellow-orange to pass as "all lamps working".

So I'm half way there -- Now to find out why yellow-black isn't getting to these 8 bulbs.

thanks!
-mof

#17 10 years ago

JCW

LOTR_breath

Pinside member

Good job! You've undone the hack. Now you can figure out what caused them to think that hack was needed. Probably a break in the wiring or connector issue. Also possibly a column driver transistor but not likely. From my experience transistors usually fail shorted and not open.

#18 10 years ago

MOF

mof

Quoted from LOTR_breath:
Good job! You've undone the hack. Now you can figure out what caused them to think that hack was needed. Probably a break in the wiring or connector issue. Also possibly a column driver transistor but not likely. From my experience transistors usually fail shorted and not open.

Thanks!
DCV readings on pins 1-3, 6-9: 5.3dcv
but...
17.5 on the evil pin #4 =)
-mof

#19 10 years ago

MOF

mof

Inside leg of TIP42 (Q26).
Shazzam!
Will this suffice from Radio Shack? http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062613
-mof

#20 10 years ago

TPK

Kneissl

Pinside member

12y 126K 3,866 7 121

If you're ordering parts I recommend mouser.com or digikey. Radio scrap is only worth it in a pinch.

#21 10 years ago

MOF

mof

Quoted from Kneissl:
If you're ordering parts I recommend mouser.com or digikey. Radio scrap is only worth it in a pinch.

Why do you say that? I have gotten all my transistors and resistors there. Do you just mean price?
-mof

#22 10 years ago

TPK

Kneissl

Pinside member

12y 126K 3,866 7 121

Price is crazy. It's cool to have around so johnny 5 can stay alive and all, but if you're paying 25 cents per diode when they sell at 1 cent or less from digikey, it adds up quickly.

#23 10 years ago

DWR

rancegt

Inactive member

Rio Rancho, NM

11y 34,650 799 5

If you can get the part today from Radio Shack it's usually worth it. If you need 10 parts, or it's not in stock at Radio Shack, then use Great Plains Electronics because he specializes in pinball parts and that's worth supporting. Great Plains will also have info sometimes about appropriate part substitutes in pinball applications.

After that comes Digikey and Mouser.

#24 10 years ago

MOF

mof

http://www.greatplainselectronics.com/search.asp?pg=1&stext=tip42&sprice=&stype=&scat=

Part check:

Spec says: page 23: part 31: Transistor, TO-220, TIP42, PNP (no mention of W or A)

Does this suffice for that?
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062613
The TP42G transistor has a power dissipation of 65W and an I(C)Peak of 10A, continuous 6A. Mfr.#MJE34. Case type:TO-220.
V(CE): 1.5
V(BE): 2.0

thanks!
-mof

#25 10 years ago

DWR

rancegt

Inactive member

Rio Rancho, NM

11y 34,650 799 5

OP
Quoted from mof:
Part check:
Spec says: page 23: part 31: Transistor, TO-220, TIP42, PNP (no mention of W or A)
Does this suffice for that?
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062613
The TP42G transistor has a power dissipation of 65W and an I(C)Peak of 10A, continuous 6A. Mfr.#MJE34. Case type:TO-220.
V(CE): 1.5
V(BE): 2.0
thanks!
-mof

That part should be fine. Here's the Great Plains equivalent for $.60 or $5.40 for ten.

_{Post edited by rancegt : I forgot the link.}

#26 10 years ago

MOF

mof

Quoted from rancegt:
If you can get the part today from Radio Shack it's usually worth it. If you need 10 parts, or it's not in stock at Radio Shack, then use Great Plains Electronics because he specializes in pinball parts and that's worth supporting. Great Plains will also have info sometimes about appropriate part substitutes in pinball applications.
After that comes Digikey and Mouser.

Makes sense. Will do. I will review my System 7, 9s, and 11s, and figure out what they have in common and buy up some 10-packs of stuff to future proof against further issues (from Great Plains).

#27 10 years ago

JCW

LOTR_breath

Pinside member

Awesome! Was the leg of Q26 broken or what?

#28 10 years ago

MOF

mof

Quoted from LOTR_breath:
Awesome! Was the leg of Q26 broken or what?

Not as far as I could see, it comes out and a new one goes in tonight.
-mof

#29 10 years ago

JCW

LOTR_breath

Pinside member

Inquiring minds want to know. Is it fixed?

#30 10 years ago

MOF

mof

Quoted from LOTR_breath:
Inquiring minds want to know. Is it fixed?

I'll be fixing it around 5pm today. I did some more sniffing around on the board and found that there was a closed 27amp 2watt resistor... Off to Fry's Electronics to pick one up.
=)
-mof

#31 10 years ago

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

OP
Quoted from mof:
27amp 2watt resistor... Off to Fry's Electronics to pick one up.

Just remember to get the 5 watt.

The 2 watt was a mistake in design at Williams.

#32 10 years ago

MOF

mof