(Topic ID: 197195)

TECH - Gottlieb Miss Annabelle is being a b***h

By meSz

6 years ago


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  • 23 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by MarkG
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#1 6 years ago

Working on a Miss Annabelle that has sat for the last 20+ years unplayed! Cleaned it all up and upon turning it on the Switch Motor is just running! If I close the tilt switch it will stop everything (obviously) but if I press the start button the motor just runs again!

Obviously a switch or 20 is out of wack but if you can lead me in the right direction it would be appreciated!

#3 6 years ago

You'll need to find out what circuits and switches send power to the score motor. Some simple items to check: Make sure the coin chute switches are not stuck in the closed position; check to see if all the score reels are fully resetting to the zero position during the reset process.

Do you have a schematic for the machine? Find the score motor icon on the schematic and work your way back through the circuit to see what switches send power to the score motor. You'll need to check these switches first to see if they are clean and adjusted properly.

#4 6 years ago

Always forget bout Pinwiki but thnx for the post.
May have jumped the gun in posting this as I just noticed the coil to the score reel is toast. Coil sleeve is melted inside. Plunger is a tad beat as well!!

IMG_7946 (resized).JPGIMG_7946 (resized).JPG

#5 6 years ago

In swapping out the coil I noticed that, whoever worked on this game previously, had the coil in wrong. The lugs of the coil were facing outward, towards the spokes of the score reel. As the wheel would turn the lugs stuck out just far enough that the spoke would catch on it and cause the wheel to stop moving! So I installed the coil so the lugs were facing to the side and this allowed the game to start up!

At first I thought the lug getting caught on the spoke is what caused the coil to fry but after getting the game started I can hear that the coil is energized the whole time so something it causing power to the coil, probably a closed switch somewhere......now I need to find the switches that feed to the first digit score reel!

#6 6 years ago

Do all the score reels reset to zero?

#7 6 years ago
Quoted from jrpinball:

Do all the score reels reset to zero?

Hey jr ... first of all thanks for the post. Always appreciate your input!

It's weird, sometimes when I plug it in the score motor will just run. Other times it will trigger the score reels to zero but also, after I plug it in, it will trigger the score reels to jump one digit and the the score reels stop and the score motors run!!!

Checking and cleaning all the switches as I go and most look good.

#8 6 years ago

It does something as soon as you plug it in? Sounds like maybe a coin switch is stuck.

#9 6 years ago

Clean the Jones plugs and check that all are contacting.
Tug on all solenoid wires to see if any have popped off.

Sounds like you have an intermittent rather than consistent problem.

#10 6 years ago

Ok let me digress a bit .... I don't have schematics yet so can someone tell me how the TILT mechs are supposed to be wired up? I have 4 wires total that need to be connected:
A yellow with green tracer and a brown with yellow tracer coming off of the wiring harness
A yellow with green tracer coming off the top of the tilt bob
and a (I believe) maroon with grey/silver tracer coming off the switch on the tilt ball mech
IMG_7948[1] (resized).JPGIMG_7948[1] (resized).JPG
and now back to our regularly schedule issue......
When I plug the game in the switch motor starts to run and the coil that releases the 5 balls is activated. Both the switch motor and this coil continue to run as long as I have power going to the game! I can also tell the coil to the last score reel is energized!

When I unplug the game the last score reel will advance by one??

Here is a short video of the issue!

Thanks for the assistance!

#11 6 years ago

Power off the machine and manually set all the score reels to zero. Power on the machine and see if the score motor keeps running.

I don't have the schematic for this machine, so I'm looking at a Dancing Dolls schematic. They might, or might not, be similar. Here are all the relays that would send power to the score motor when the machine is powered on, and one or more of the switches are mis-adjusted:

B
O
W
G
Q
U
S
T
Score motor switch 1C

Not sure if the wire colors are the same on each machine, so you'll need to look at each relay to see if there are any mis-adjusted switches...

#12 6 years ago

What I see in the video makes me think that the game is just trying to reset itself as it would at the start of a game. What made it want to reset might be a coin switch as jrpinball pointed out. But once the game starts the reset sequence it fires the ball release solenoid. I think that solenoid stays on until points are scored so that may be behaving correctly. The score motor wants to run until it sees that all of the score reels are at zero, so that too may be behaving correctly.

The score reel however is not advancing because its solenoid is not releasing. If you try to push in the score reel solenoid plunger with the power off you'll notice that all it does is reach forward and grab the next tooth on the score reel ratchet. It's not until you let go of the plunger that the spring pulls the ratchet to the next position. That explains why your score advances when you cut the power.

So the question is, why isn't your score reel solenoid releasing? During reset the score reels are reset by the score motor, specifically by switches on the score motor that get closed 5 times for each 120 degree turn of the score motor cams. These switches are typically in score motor position 1A or 4A. If you don't have a diagram to identify these switches for you, just look at the score motor cam that has lots of narrow teeth on it. It's usually the lower of the two cams. (see http://funwithpinball.com/small-boards#Score_Motor for closeup video of the various score motor switches.) Some of the switches that ride on the lower cam are trying to reset your score reels. It could be that one of those switches is closed all the time, sending power to the score reel solenoid constantly.

With the power off turn the score motor slowly by hand and watch the switches that ride on the lower cam. Verify that each one opens and closes as a cam tooth passes by. If you're lucky you'll find one that never opens. If you don't find it, look at the wiring for those switches. The solder tabs may be mangled causing one or more switches to be shorted.

/Mark

#13 6 years ago

I think it's stuck on reset, and a playfield switch is stuck closed at the same time.

#14 6 years ago

So if I manually put the reels to all zero's the game will start! So to all of your point....a switch is stuck open! I looked at the top banks of switches on the score motor and all appears to be good BUT then I had to stop as I was having family over for dinner!!!

Will look more at it tomorrow and THANKS for the help thus far!!!

meSz

#15 6 years ago
Quoted from MarkG:

With the power off turn the score motor slowly by hand and watch the switches that ride on the lower cam. Verify that each one opens and closes as a cam tooth passes by. If you're lucky you'll find one that never opens. If you don't find it, look at the wiring for those switches. The solder tabs may be mangled causing one or more switches to be shorted.

Checked all the switches on the switch motor and they all are gaped properly (opening and closing as they should). So I checked the tabs (lugs) on the switches and none were mangled or touching another but upon going through them two wires did come off the tabs so I re-soldered them back on!

One other thing I noticed was that the Hold Relay switch was closed no matter if the coil was energized or not! So I opened the switch up! Turned the game on and it reset the score to zero (I had manually changed the reels to reflect something other than 0). Manually pressed some switches and it was scoring but upon touching some of the pop bumpers they initially scored 1 point till maybe the third and then they weren't scoring! I activated the switched to make the machine appear that the ball was draining. After doing this three times the game appeared to be over! I then tried to start another game and nothing!!! I had to manually close the Hold Relay switch to get it going again. Unfortunately once I closed this switch the switch motor as well as everything else was back to the way it was (i.e. switch motor just kept running).

Just one other thing to note (not sure if it's relevant or not) the play meter was, at one point, eliminated. I re-soldered the wires connecting it back up!

The fun continues ..... I have schematics on the way!

#16 6 years ago

That's a lot of information. Some of those things may be problems and some may be related, but trying to untangle them all remotely makes it more complicated than it needs to be. I would recommend trying to isolate the individual problems so you can easily reproduce them. Isolate, simplify, and minimize the number of variables.

Also as a general rule, before you adjust switches to get them to operate properly, check that the screws holding the switch in place are tight. Otherwise the switch can wiggle into a different position and out of adjustment again. For extra credit you could go through all of the relays and steppers in the game and operate them all manually with the power off and visually verify that they all open and close as they should, the switch stacks are tight and the lugs aren't shorting. This often finds a problem or two before you even know it's there.

So you mentioned that a Hold relay switch was out of adjustment, and later mentioned that the Hold relay isn't firing. That's one problem to isolate and diagnose. The Hold relay may be fired by the Start relay. Until you get the schematic you could try to trace the wire from the Hold relay solenoid to the next switch to see if it is operating correctly. If you can't follow the wire color, you could use a meter with one probe clipped to the Hold relay solenoid lug. With the other probe touch all of the other relay switches in the bank looking for a switch with a resistance of less than an ohm or two.

As for the pop bumpers, experiment a little to see if they always stop scoring at the same time. Maybe start with just one pop bumper and understand how it behaves. What changes from the time that it does work to the time that it stops working? Are the pop bumper switches clean and operating properly?

I don't know how the game goes into game over mode, but I suspect that both of the ball trough switches need to be closed indicating that the 4th and 5th ball have drained. Is there a game over light in the backbox? If it's not working, fixing that first might help solve other problems later.

And if the game isn't starting be sure that there are credits on the game, and that the switches on the credit unit are operating correctly. There are one or two switches that close whenever there are any credits on the game. They open when the credit unit shows 0. Make sure those are working correctly.

#17 6 years ago

Here's an image of my Miss Annabelle. If you need another angle I can get it, I moved it into the open.

Miss A (resized).JPGMiss A (resized).JPG

#18 6 years ago
Quoted from JBK:

Here's an image of my Miss Annabelle. If you need another angle I can get it, I move it into the open.

MUCH appreciated JBK this is what I needed to resolve this issue!
THANKS again!

#19 6 years ago
Quoted from MarkG:

So the question is, why isn't your score reel solenoid releasing? During reset the score reels are reset by the score motor, specifically by switches on the score motor that get closed 5 times for each 120 degree turn of the score motor cams. These switches are typically in score motor position 1A or 4A. If you don't have a diagram to identify these switches for you, just look at the score motor cam that has lots of narrow teeth on it. It's usually the lower of the two cams. (see http://funwithpinball.com/small-boards#Score_Motor for closeup video of the various score motor switches.) Some of the switches that ride on the lower cam are trying to reset your score reels. It could be that one of those switches is closed all the time, sending power to the score reel solenoid constantly.
With the power off turn the score motor slowly by hand and watch the switches that ride on the lower cam. Verify that each one opens and closes as a cam tooth passes by. If you're lucky you'll find one that never opens. If you don't find it, look at the wiring for those switches. The solder tabs may be mangled causing one or more switches to be shorted.

So I have gone through the Score Motor switches and appears the switches are gaped accordingly (open and close as they should) so I went through and made sure that all the screws, holding switches in place, were tight so there is no movement in them when they're contacted by the cam and all were tight! So just perplexed at what is causing this motor to just continue to run!

As of now the machine is not functioning at all as the motor just runs! As JR said it appears it's stuck!

I'm going to look at it again tomorrow (it's beer:30 here) but feel free to chime in with anything to look for!

#20 6 years ago

Any luck with Hold relay? (see my last note for details.)

Once you get the schematic it will spell out which relays keep the motor running.

If you don't want to wait, have a good look inside while the score motor is running. If the score reels are all at zero and the score motor keeps turning, what relays are active? What happens if you try to manually release or disengage them? There may be a relay that starts the score motor that isn't releasing when it should.

3 weeks later
#21 6 years ago

Apologies for the delay in updating this! Had family in town and just haven't had time to work on the game!

Nonetheless, found out that the 1 point relay was the issue! Game will now play but what I am experiencing now is that ......

- the upper pop bumper when lit should score 10 points and it doesn't but also the left slingshot does the same! When these two aren't lit they score 1 point and the bell rings, when lit they score nothing and no bell! So a disconnect there somewhere! Will cont to investigate this!
- Not certain what all caused the fan to open up and reveal Miss Annabelle but I am finding that only when the ball goes in the hole is when the fan moves! Also, when the game is over or when you start a new game should the fan not reset? This one is not!
- The knocker is not engaging when I surpass the high score! I have the pegs set to 1200, 1400, 1600 etc and nothing!

I guess if I knew more about how the game plays/scores that would help!

#22 6 years ago

bump

#23 6 years ago
Quoted from meSz:

- the upper pop bumper when lit should score 10 points and it doesn't but also the left slingshot does the same! When these two aren't lit they score 1 point and the bell rings, when lit they score nothing and no bell!

There's probably a relay that controls the 10 point light and sends the scoring pulse to either the 1 point or the 10 point relay. It'll probably have a make/break switch where one side (the 1 point side) is working but the other side (the 10 point side) isn't because its dirty or never closes.

You can find this relay by doing whatever you need to do to light the "10 points when lit" light and listening for the click of the relay closing. Once you've found the relay tighten the screws that hold the switches in place, gently clean the switch contacts, and adjust the switch(es) only if necessary.

/Mark

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