(Topic ID: 92179)

tech: Embryon changed from 3-ball to 2-ball (solved!)

By mof

9 years ago


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  • 36 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 9 years ago by mof
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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Embryon manual balls per game.png
#1 9 years ago

I was working on rebuilding the flipper assemblies. They work fine, although the flip-save no longer works.

Other than that, I can't think of any other background that could help...

On reboot, Embryon used to say, "Embryon. 3-ball"

Now it says, "Embryon, 2-ball"

Of course, I never touched the dip-switches.

Wondering if anyone has experienced this.

I bought an extra dip-switch part, (wrong color) in case the recommendation is to swap this component out.

thanks!
-mof

#2 9 years ago

I reseated a few cables to the lamp driver board.

Now it's on 4-ball.

?

-mof

#3 9 years ago

Try re-seating the connectors on the MPU. You obviously have a connector problem, not sure why the lamp driver showed it, unless you bumped one of the connectors for something else fiddling with those ones.

#4 9 years ago

How can this be a connector issue? The setting of the number of balls is simply set by the dip switch setting (switches 31 and 32) on the MPU. To me it would seem that the overall connections between switches 31 and 32 and the other relevant areas on the MPU is the issue.

Any chance of swapping the MPU with a known working one?

#5 9 years ago

Bally's will do all sorts of weird things when they have bad connections, it's like only some of the signals get sent and returned, just like if a dip is set to the wrong setting.

#6 9 years ago

So, is it just the speech calls are incorrect? Or is the game actually on 2 or 4 ball as well?

#7 9 years ago

Actually I experienced a similar issue where the machine was set to 3 ball and at start up it would occasionally say "4-ball". It seemed that the issue was the connector on the solenoid driver board (top right board and top right connector).

Note that we have a new alltek MPU board, and that by wiggling the solenoid driver board connector, the call out discrepancy would revert back to 3-ball. Perhaps it is a bad solder joint there or a bad connector. I redid both.

Either way, please report back your findings and solution.

#8 9 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

So, is it just the speech calls are incorrect? Or is the game actually on 2 or 4 ball as well?

Both. It said "2" and went to "2" ball.

I reseated the connectors on the lamp driver board for a different issue, and now...

Today it's actually on "4" and saying "4 ball".

-mof

#9 9 years ago

I would check the RAM chips on the MPU (probably the 5101.) The dip switches are read by the software at boot and stored in RAM, which is why changing dip switch settings after power up requires a reboot for them to take effect.

#10 9 years ago

Some games use the last few audit settings to adjust # of balls. If so, make sure you batteries are good and the audits are not getting scrambled.

If # of balls is set via dip switches, check the dip bank for proper operation. Sometimes they get dirty and never close.

#11 9 years ago

I am trying to understand how this can even happen. On my Embryon I have not seen any way to set things to anything other than 3 or 5 balls. Someone used a marker on the apron insert to indicate 4 balls which I thought was weird.

#12 9 years ago

I initially thought the setting was 3 or 5 ball, and once stored in RAM the memory could be corrupt and change the value. But after reading the manual, I see the number of balls can be 2,3,4 or 5. It's set with dip switches 31 and 32. As Andrew stated, switches can get dirty or affected by battery corrosion and not function properly. Flush them with contact cleaner and see if that helps.

Embryon manual balls per game.pngEmbryon manual balls per game.png

#13 9 years ago

Both 32, 31 are set to OFF for 3 ball. For the MPU to misread 4 or 2 ball, one or both dips have to start conducting (ON, ON or ON, OFF). Try cleaning that area really well. Make sure something is not on the board conducting around those DIPS. A bunch of diodes feed those DIPs too. Maybe one of those is failing.

#14 9 years ago

Use your meter on resistance to check the dip switches. Make sure they close all the way and no resistance.

#15 9 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

Use your meter on resistance to check the dip switches. Make sure they close all the way and no resistance.

Ok, removed the MPU and took a closer look.

I looked up what the components are next to the dip switches.
1n4148 diodes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1N4148
I ran them in diode test and they all checked out: ~ .500 / OL
I then measured the ohms on them, and they all came up ~58.0, except the final two for switch 31,32, they came up 4.x.

I don't know if that's because they are in circuit or not.

-mof

#16 9 years ago

Resistance across the diode installed in the board won't tell us too much. Those diodes are fine unless they got phyiscally broken. I have done hundreds of these MPUs and never had to mess with those banks of diodes.

More likely to have an issue in the dip switch itself. Those are often flakey. Specially the ones that rock on the pivot point in the middle. The switch ones are more reliable.

#17 9 years ago

Well rats...
I reflowed a few pins that looked a little dry to me, but most of them were already good...
Now I can't boot into attract mode =(
power->GI->nothing.
-mof

#18 9 years ago

check tp5 for +5vdc. check tp2 for +12vdc. Check everywhere you touched your soldering iron too.

#19 9 years ago
Quoted from mof:

Well rats...
I reflowed a few pins that looked a little dry to me, but most of them were already good...
Now I can't boot into attract mode =(
power->GI->nothing.
-mof

You probably have a small solder bridge, it happened to me once. I could not see it at all, just swiped the hot iron between several sets of pins, tried it again and it was all good.

#20 9 years ago

I checked continuity of a few chips from front to the back side of the board. I found a pin with no continuity. I pushed a little bit, and then I got continuity. Machine starts now. It played a few games then repeated the mess. I turned it off, pushed in U7 again, and now it works.

The previous owner told me to look out for U7. I'm wondering how to give this a permanent fix.

-mof

#21 9 years ago

Best case fix is to replace the socket. That requires practice and good tools.

If you want to try and cheat. Use a machine pin socket and stack it on top of the failing socket The legs are little fatter and may buy you some time.

#22 9 years ago
Quoted from mof:

I turned it off, pushed in U7 again, and now it works.

Nice find! Did it fix the original problem too (X no. Balls at start)?

#23 9 years ago
Quoted from KenH:

Nice find! Did it fix the original problem too (X no. Balls at start)?

No. That was just a side problem of flexing the board by removing it a few times.

I'm still considering installing a new dispwitch.

-mof

2 weeks later
#24 9 years ago

I decided to remove the MPU from Centaur and compare it to the Embryon MPU side by side.
Everything measures equally when I compare ohms:

* top side traces: left of dipswitch to right side of it on/off switch 25 through 32
* top side trace left of left resistor to right side of it on/off switch 25 through 32

All readings match Centaur's board... this makes me 80% sure it's not the dipswitch. i'd rather not replace a limb that's working fine. I get O.L for 'off', and 0.00-0.02 ohms for 'on' like with all other dipswitches...

Now I'm thinking that the pin 32 and 31's traces out to the connectors (or the pins or connectors themselves) are shorting to on somehow)

Can someone help with the schematic and suggest a spot where the short may occur? I'm looking to improve my schematic reading skills, so feel free to show me where to look. I tried holding up the board to "see" where pins 31 and 32 lead out to but it wasn't clear to me.

We'll get this bugger.

-mof

#25 9 years ago

Did you ever try swapping the RAM chips, starting with the 5101?

#26 9 years ago
Quoted from dothedoo:

Did you ever try swapping the RAM chips, starting with the 5101?

Nope. Do we know if that chip holds the RAM for this setting?
-mof

#27 9 years ago

Yes the dip switches are read and stored in RAM. Can't tell you if it's the 5101 or 6810, but we all know which one is more likely to be bad.

#29 9 years ago

Dothedoo, I'm listening to "Torch" by "Torch"... thanks for the tip!

Ok so I did a little denial and error on my 5101 socket on Embryon (removed the chip)...

Pins 21 and 22 have continuity -- but strangely only on the back side. (Whereas they do NOT have continuity on my Centaur board) I can't visually see where it is near the socket on front or back where they are touching. It makes me wonder if the short isn't somewhere else leading back to pin 21.

How is it possible that 21 and 22 have no continuity on the front side, but have it on the back side?

How can I track that down this short?

-mof

#30 9 years ago

21 and 22 should not be tied together. Pin 22 is 5V power and pin 21 is address line 4.

#31 9 years ago
Quoted from dothedoo:

21 and 22 should not be tied together. Pin 22 is 5V power and pin 21 is address line 4.

I agree with you, how do I proceed?
-mof

#32 9 years ago

Don't really have any suggestions other than to ask if that socket was ever replaced. The solder pad could be gone on the top side as well as the through hole.

#33 9 years ago

Progress!

After swapping the chips on U8 and U10, and no changes...

We got Embryon to say "4-ball" by pulling J3 from the MPU. Hopefully this isolates the MPU from the equation. All this started when I did a flipper upgrade a few weeks ago, and installed new flipper button switches.

-mof

#34 9 years ago

Wish I would have paid more attention to your first post. Do you have pics of your right flipper switch config?

2 weeks later
#35 9 years ago
Quoted from dothedoo:

Wish I would have paid more attention to your first post. Do you have pics of your right flipper switch config?

I wish I could see a pic of someone's embryon right flipper button switch. Perhaps I got something backwards.
We removed A4J2, and now it's saying 3-ball. Also, the right flipper doesn't flip during ball save. It was the last thing I worked on.

-mof

#36 9 years ago

Solved!
A friend came over, and looked into the schematics with me. A4J2-1 and A4J2-10 were shorted, via incorrect wiring on the right flipper button. Now that it's fixed the 3-ball is working, and the flip-save is working again.
-mof

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