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(Topic ID: 73422)

Tech EM Help - Target Alpha


By tuffano

6 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 36 posts
  • 11 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by CactusJack
  • Topic is favorited by 7 Pinsiders

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TargetAlpha-173.jpg
TargetAlphaSuspect.jpg

#1 6 years ago

Hoping someone can point me in the right direction or verify if I have a problem with this Target Alpha.
The game is operational from a scoring, start, reset, ball count, player, and etc. standpoint. The issue I think I have is the time (15-20 seconds) it takes for the bonus to count down once a ball drains. Once drain occurs then the bonus countdown will go say 3 counts, pause, 2 counts, pause, 5 counts, pause, and so on. Now my other Gottlieb pins only take 5 or so seconds to count down bonus, so I think I have an issue with this Target Alpha.

I have cleaned the bonus unit (mechanically and switch stack) and it runs smoothly. I have also cleaned and checked gaps on the score motor for the 10 and 5 drop target banks and they look normal. There is a score bonus relay on the main board that I have cleaned and appears to be functioning properly as well.

I think it should score faster and I know it would sound better if it did, so any advice if this is normal or where to look/check or re-check would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Pat

#2 6 years ago

I had a Solar City that did the same thing. I believe your machine is working fine.

#3 6 years ago

How does it compare to say, this one:

(there are also other videos of game play on YT.)

#4 6 years ago

Thanks for replying. I was thinking my game might be normal, but after watching the youtube video DirtFlipper posted and then watching other plays on youtube, my game definitely has an issue. Those games complete bonus scoring in 5 seconds or so. Looks like maybe one revolution of the scoring motor maybe??? I'll be able to look at mine a little later, but I'd bet my score motor does 3 to 4 revolutions to complete the bonus.

#5 6 years ago

Is your score motor slower at resetting the game as well?

I have a Spirit of 76 and Cleopatra sitting next to one another. The score motor on the So76 is noticeably faster than the Cleo.

I too had pulled the entire score motor assembly apart and cleaned it. The assemblies spin by hand with no noticeable difference between the two.

Is this a sign of a gearbox that needs to be rebuilt?

#6 6 years ago

This thing should count down like a machine gun. I suspect your issue lies in score motor switches or the E relay. Right now, my money is on the NC switch on the E relay with the Gr-yel and blk-red wires. If this switch isn't shut, you will only get one countdown per motor cycle or 3/revolution. If it is working right, you will get all the countdowns in one revolution of the motor.

The other one is switch at motor 4a - this supplies the 15 pulses/rev that count bonus.

I wouldn't mess with the motor assy at this point.

Todd
Team EM

-1
#7 6 years ago

Isn't 'E' the Extra Ball relay? Might you have meant 'K'? (looks like it has those wire colors, and is in line to the Add Bonus Unit).

Maybe the 'G' relay switch stack needs tightening and those switches cleaned/gapped though, if it's not making good consistent contact.

#8 6 years ago

Thanks for the suggestions; I should start bringing my schematics to work.hahaha

Garrett...The game reset time is comparable to my other pins so it seems to be just this bonus count time is different.

I will check the paths newmantjn and DirtFlipper suggest this weekend and will post findings.

Thanks again for the suggestions newmantjn and DirtFlipper..and also for the YouTube suggestion..didn't think of looking there to see if my game was normal but did see this one (link below) that is even a little faster than mine but based on other videos he has a similar issue.

#9 6 years ago
Quoted from DirtFlipper:

Might you have meant 'K'? (looks like it has those wire colors, and is in line to the Add Bonus Unit).

Yep. K it is. I'm going off a crappy pdf scan and needed to zoom in a little more on that area. Thanks.

#10 6 years ago

The above video seems about the same speed of bonus rate for a multi-player machine like my 2 player Card Whiz. That would seem a little slow for a single player bonus countdown. In the above video it seems like he is getting 2 bonus per score reel revolution and you are only getting 1.

#11 6 years ago
Quoted from Garrett:

Is your score motor slower at resetting the game as well?
I have a Spirit of 76 and Cleopatra sitting next to one another. The score motor on the So76 is noticeably faster than the Cleo.
I too had pulled the entire score motor assembly apart and cleaned it. The assemblies spin by hand with no noticeable difference between the two.
Is this a sign of a gearbox that needs to be rebuilt?

Are both your games domestic versions? Your "So 76" may have a 50 hertz motor in it because it was produced for export. I've seen this several times on games that were subsequently reimported here. The 50 hz motor runs considerably faster when connected to 60 hz AC used here in the US. As far as resetting, it's usually not a problem,
but I've seen these games have trouble accurately totaling 5, 50, 500 or 5000 points because the motor is pulsing the switch faster than the score reel can increment. I usually try to grab a 60 hz motor from a parts machine to swap into these reimports when I encounter this.

#12 6 years ago

I would say your right Rat_Tomago about my game doing 1 or 2 counts per revolution, but would think 1, 2, or 4 player games should count down same speeds (fast) like most of all the other YouTube vids do and as newmantjn points out "This thing should count down like a machine gun"

I follow the traces suggested and hopefully find and correct to get the quickness it should be.

#13 6 years ago

When the ball drains, the 'G' relay should engage and lock on, and the score motor start running. The bonus unit should then be stepping in sync with the five pulses on each 1/3 revolution of the score motor (the tat-tat-tat-tat-tat, tat-tat-tat-tat-tat we know so well). At each position of the bonus unit, it's 'harvesting' the available bonus points available with a drop target being down (if the corresponding drop target switch is closed when the bonus unit is at that position, the 1000 point relay then fires).

So it should be able to grab all the bonus points in one full turn of the score motor (up to the max of 15 targets) (just as Todd noted above).

It might be worth observing if the ball count unit is sluggish when it steps, or if G is not locking on, if the stuff Todd mentioned doesn't work.

#14 6 years ago
Quoted from tuffano:

The issue I think I have is the time (15-20 seconds) it takes for the bonus to count down once a ball drains.

Quoted from tuffano:

that is even a little faster than mine but based on other videos he has a similar issue.

These youtube videos all have a timer in them in the lower left corner. The video you linked takes about 4 seconds to count down. This isn't even in the same area code as 15-20 seconds. If it REALLY is 15-20 seconds, then check the switches. If it is more like 5 seconds, then that puts you in sluggish motor territory. Other videos show about 3 seconds, so the one on your video is in the hunt.

#15 6 years ago

Ok, unlike all my fishing story's, it looks like I may exaggerate a little when it comes to pinball...lol...15-20 seconds was wrong. Total time and very consistent is 6 seconds. I guess I'm expecting the tat,tat,tat,tat,tat,tat to go smooth thru the 15 count, but what I get (which isn,t consistent) is tat,tat,pause,tat,tat....pause... tat,tat..etc. It could quickly run thru 5 then pause and then run thru 3 pause, then complete.... Or go thru 3 quickly pause, 2 more quick, pause, 5 quick, pause, then complete the remainder quickly. This happens across all players and doesn't matter if I drop none, some, or all the targets.

Thanks for the help so far..sorry about the mis info on times. That was off memory when I posted the thread.

#16 6 years ago

Does the score motor make just one complete revolution?

Is the bonus scored correctly for each drop target that is down? (or are some missed?)

Is the bonus unit stepping for each score motor 'tat'? (There are three groups of five in a complete revolution, and the pause is because the cam doesn't have a cog in between them on the 'A' level.)

Is the 'G' relay locking on for the duration of the revolution?

#17 6 years ago
Quoted from tuffano:

lol...15-20 seconds was wrong. Total time and very consistent is 6 seconds.

That doesn't surprise me. I work in automatic transmissions and a lot of people will tell you a shift takes about 5 seconds. I reality, it takes about 0.4 seconds to complete.

Anyway, I suspect your machine is close. I'm working on one now and will let you know when I get it completed.

#18 6 years ago
Quoted from DirtFlipper:

Does the score motor make just one complete revolution?
Is the bonus scored correctly for each drop target that is down? (or are some missed?)
Is the bonus unit stepping for each score motor 'tat'? (There are three groups of five in a complete revolution, and the pause is because the cam doesn't have a cog in between them on the 'A' level.)
Is the 'G' relay locking on for the duration of the revolution?

Score motor makes anywhere from 1 to 1.5 revs to complete the 15 bounds count.

After manually running these test games I see I do have a scoring problem. The problem is only on double bonus, drop target 1 on 15 bank which is position 0 on bonus unit, yellow wire on schematic. The problem is on last ball, double bonus only. This target/position will score 4x or award 4k instead of 2k. On first 4 balls, it scores normal 1k....weird and guess I never noticed until now. All other targets score properly on double bonus.

G relay does not stay locked on thru whole revolution. In fact, when the pauses do occur, the relay unlocks, then locks in again and bonus unit continues to count down.

So to sum it up I may have 4 pauses occur after a drain. The score motor could take 1.5 revs before bonus stepper is complete. The G relay will unluck those 4 times.

#19 6 years ago
Quoted from tuffano:

So to sum it up I may have 4 pauses occur after a drain. The score motor could take 1.5 revs before bonus stepper is complete. The G relay will unluck those 4 times.

Check your G relay lock-in switch. Note that if this is open, the current will continue to follow the dotted red path. This is consistent with your behavior.

TargetAlphaSuspect.jpg

#20 6 years ago

Thanks newmantjn and DirtFlipper, you guys nailed it. G relay tightened, cleaned, gapped, and now bonus countdown complete in one score motor revolution.

#21 6 years ago

High-five! Or is it a fist-bump? Oh well, congrats!

#22 6 years ago
Quoted from tuffano:

Thanks newmantjn and DirtFlipper, you guys nailed it. G relay tightened, cleaned, gapped, and now bonus countdown complete in one score motor revolution.

I love it when a plan comes together.

Thanks for the follow up!!

#23 6 years ago
Quoted from newmantjn:

Check your G relay lock-in switch. Note that if this is open, the current will continue to follow the dotted red path. This is consistent with your behavior.

Nice call Todd

Quoted from tuffano:

Thanks newmantjn and DirtFlipper, you guys nailed it. G relay tightened, cleaned, gapped, and now bonus countdown complete in one score motor revolution.

Happiness is a game that works correctly.

Ken

8 months later
#24 6 years ago

My g relay locks on and off hence bonus count is sluggish, what switch locks on g relay, it must get power from some where. Thanks peter

#25 6 years ago

It gets power from Lots of paths for G to be energized. But, before bothering to go through them all, check to see if it is getting stuck electrically, or mechanically. Once energized, watch it as you turn off power to the game. If it drops out immediately, it is electrical. If it holds in with power off, it is getting stuck mechanically.

#26 6 years ago

G: Bonus Score Control RelayTargetAlpha-173.jpg

#27 6 years ago

My g relay fires the same as mentioned by tuffano above, when the pauses occur during its cycle the g relay unlocks then locks again and continues to count,the red arrow above points to a switch which needs to be checked what is that suspect switch as i cant read the diagram,the g relay switches are good and it unlocks once power is turned off, if i manually hold g relay down it goes off the way it should like a machine gun. Thanks

#28 6 years ago

The switch pointed to with the Red arrow is a normally open switch on the G relay itself. This is the "hold" switch for the G relay so that if the relay has been energized, it is supposed to hold in until something else drops it out. In the original poster's case, it was this switch that apparently caused the problem. If you have cleaned the hold switch on the G relay, then I would instead suspect the 15th position switch on the bonus unit itself. Due to the vibration, it is fairly common for it to drop out as the bonus unit steps around. Make sure it is clean and has good "over-travel" to insure it is closed and remains closed all the way around until it hits the valley in the cam.

#29 6 years ago

When the bonus cycle resets to position one the two outside contacts close, r u saying make sure they remain closed and dont vibrate apart during the bonus countdown. Thanks

#30 6 years ago
Quoted from Petermunro:

When the bonus cycle resets to position one the two outside contacts close, r u saying make sure they remain closed and dont vibrate apart during the bonus countdown. Thanks

Well, I don't have one to look at. Based on the schematic, it shows them as normally closed (one is a make break switch and therefore has a normally open contact too). So, normally, the schematic is drawn in reset condition (player 1 Ball 1) and some brands with power turned off. The schematic says 15th position switch so I would expect that home position is position 0. So, yes, the contacts should remain closed in every step position until the switch stack reaches the valley. From what I can remember, at that point, it would step past the valley and land back on the high portion of the cam.

So, basically, positions 0 through 14 should maintain a closed condition on that switch stack.

You may want to grab the bakelite wiper disc and try to wiggle it. It should be pretty solid and only rotate. If it is really sloppy ( worn shaft or bearing or loose set screws) it is very difficult to keep the switch in adjustment. I had a Hot Shot which also used the stepper bonus scan system and due to the number of plays, the bonus unit was very sloppy due to wear.

#31 6 years ago

In the reset position my outside snow shoe starts on the second rivet with the yellow wire on completion of the bonus cycle the outside snow shoe finishes one step past the final rivet on the brown board, is this correct. Thanks

#32 6 years ago

Petermunro...I think it will help reading this thread on Solar City, which is a similar version to Target Alpha, where newnamtjn gives more great information on the bonus unit.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/solar-city-1

#33 6 years ago

Thread moved to EM Tech

#34 6 years ago

Damn...I didnt know you started that thread I posted above......too early, need more coffee I guess

#35 6 years ago

I asked the above question on the solar city thread and did not get a reply,in his first photo there is a drag mark past the final outside rivet, so i assume thats its resting place but i dont know for sure,i have just purchased my solar city and the outside snow shoe was alined to start on the first outside rivet not the second as pointed out,this was causing problems as starting on the first rivet looked normal without a diagram.

#36 6 years ago

Correct, the schematic shows the start or sitting position as "0" with the Yellow wire going to it.

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