(Topic ID: 112746)

TBL - Who's staying in ?

By vid1900

6 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 108 posts
  • 69 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by Fishbeadtwo
  • Topic is favorited by 8 Pinsiders

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Linked Games

Topic poll

“Are you staying in TBL preorder?”

  • Yes! I'm staying in. 53 votes
    31%
  • No! It I'm out. 87 votes
    51%
  • Maybe. I'm keeping an eye on the situation. 29 votes
    17%

(169 votes)

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There are 108 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 3.
#1 6 years ago

You probably should only vote if you have listened to the Roger Sharpe interview:

http://www.podcastgarden.com/episode/episode-127-a-timely-evening-with-roger-sharpe_33981

I don't want this thread to be a big, drama fnckfest, we've got those threads already, so let's try and keep this OT.

Those who get out, please let us know when your funds are refunded.

#2 6 years ago

I'm out, but I was out before this drama. I just need the cash right now. It's unfortunate for me that I requested it less than a week before the drama happened, and my money has yet to be refunded...

#3 6 years ago

i actually want to buy one, but i think it is way overpriced
maybe i can be a 2nd owner.

-1
#4 6 years ago

In. Like the podcasts putting some perspective on things. The "Phil has the keys to the DP USA account" is certainly concerning, but he is acting in a way he thinks best protects us customers money... i.e., it's not his intent to use the trapped money to screw us customers (granted; that's his intent.. his actions may end up being the opposite). But, I take comfort in that none the less.

Also I wish we could have non-anonymous polls.. after listening to the podcast and Nate sitting next to Barry looking at all these pinsiders saying "I'm out" and not feeling some of those people lined up with actual customers is suck.

#5 6 years ago

The only thing that concerned me about the interview with Roger Sharpe was that it sounded like he had no idea who Phil is or exactly what Phil did. He was asking Nate for details. Seemed odd to me. Did no one fill him in with all the details of the events that transpired just prior to him getting on board?

Other than that, Roger is a class-act and can hopefully work this all out.

#6 6 years ago
Quoted from ChadH:

The only thing that concerned me about the interview with Roger Sharpe was that it sounded like he had no idea who Phil is or exactly what Phil did. He was asking Nate for details. Seemed odd to me. Did no one fill him in with all the details of the events that transpired just prior to him getting on board?
Other than that, Roger is a class-act and can hopefully work this all out.

Eh Roger's role here seems to be consultant / gun for hire on a very specific thing (licensing). Hes not a partner , employee, etc so I could see him not caring a lot about that as he's being paid to do a job ; not vested in the company at large

#7 6 years ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

Eh Roger's role here seems to be consultant / gun for hire on a very specific thing (licensing). Hes not a partner , employee, etc so I could see him not caring a lot about that as he's being paid to do a job ; not vested in the company at large

I can understand that but he wasn't born yesterday. He would not put his reputation on the line if he once thought something was shady.

#8 6 years ago

Out. Got my third deposit back from Phil, put it back in with DP, then on monday I pulled it back out again and cancelled my whole order. Within 24 hours of escalating it to a paypal claim, I had my third deposit back. It's now sitting safely in the bank. Nothing happening with my first two deposits, but because of their age it will take 10 days for the claim to be resolved, one way or another.

#9 6 years ago

aeonblack...were you in on day one?

#10 6 years ago

No, first and second deposit were put in in mid july.

#11 6 years ago
Quoted from aeonblack:

No, first and second deposit were put in in mid july.

nuts...thought I might have moved up a spot...

#12 6 years ago

I'll stay in for now, but at this point, a rug and chrome trim isn't worth the preorder stress, especially with the lack of assurance and communication on this project. This is not how you treat your backers.

Again, we're talking about $9,000 here -- not $90 or $900. I need to see more initiative from DP. The two nonchalant emails from DP this week bother me, especially with the finger pointing.

DP is the one that needs to resolve the issues -- not Phil or their customers. Put down the solder gun and put your buyers at ease. Customer service and communication go a long way.

#13 6 years ago

RTR's list (He hasn't updated for refunds yet) ; Captured here.. If your name isn't on this, then you shouldn't be voting in the poll. or you haven't found the preorder thread here :
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-big-lebowski-real-preorder-list

RTR
Burningman
Starfighter
zsciaeount
Sd_tom
Bemmet
jazzmaster
genex
wellarmed (Germany)
r6emporer
taz
Mr_Freshie
Ozno
Bigmac (Luxembourg)
HENSBROOKER (dibs on 21) (Netherlands)
BigLebowski (Germany)
Inhomearcades x2
Rommy
PDXmonkey x2
deadzebra
mdsjdtx76
twominds
B1GF15H
PinGiant
Rlslick
JustLikeMe(UK)
Rarehero
Tuna_Delight
Pinbally_1968 (Netherlands)
Aeonblack
Litzy
Edmorex
dannylite
Mr68
Beauimpala
Unlisted #1
Junkhauler
Pipeline Tom
Superchicken
Nikonokin
Unlisted #2
Pinhead 1982 (UK)
Charlie - Seattle Pinball Museum
mguidarelli
Huddyrx
Wcbrandes
Sammiesguys
Pinballslave (Czech Republic)
Foxtj24
Biv (Switzerland)
Troutfarm
PinBalt
Kapper
SkiBall
JRawlinson_2000 (UK)
Erik
Hwawonyu
Dr_spaceman
Deaconblooze
Berserk
Concerthardt
DerRoland (Germany)
MusketD
Molly
Fattrain
Rarehero's friend Perry
Highdef
Vex
Karl (Norway)
Rensh (Netherlands)
Sebastian (friend of pdxmonkey)
Leechman
DrJoe
Yonkiman
Metallik
Nilroc
GaryMcT
Redmamanora
Pugsley
BrianMadden
MikeHogue
Kcpinballfan
NorCalRealtor
Zucot
KidChrisso
Modern Pinball in NYC
3 associates of Rensh (Netherlands)
BillE
Maddog
Marboroman
Pinball Jones (arcade near Bemmet)
Hank527
PinWolf
pinghetto
pinaholic
Chuck_Sherman's friend
Blairalley
Leisure
jonninemonic

#14 6 years ago

I'm staying in, on board since expo ....

#15 6 years ago

Out. Out out out. That podcast did nothing to address my concern: I asked for a refund prior to all hell breaking loose, and was ignored. Then the dam broke and finally I get a message from Barry: your check wasn't cashed (untrue). Now he's telling me Phil will handle it?

Roger is smooth and classy, but in that podcast he squarely blamed anyone in my situation for all the issues DP currently faces, wherein he states that anyone wanting their money back is guilty of being caught up in a panic cycle, just having a vendetta, always creeping around hoping to see boutique pinball fail....I mean he was very clear about this. That is NOT what I wanted to hear from our blessed DP savior.

#16 6 years ago

I'm staying in. I was one of the ones that got an unexpected refund from Phil. Amidst the drama, I resubmitted the Paypal payment and also payed the Jan 1st at the same time. Call me crazy, but I believe in these guys. Roger wrapping up the licensing details gives me even more confidence. I think Roger's quote was he was hired as a "bandaid not a tourniquet".

#17 6 years ago

I'm in. Keep the faith. Donnie would have wanted it that way.

#18 6 years ago

In! look we had two fears. License and money. Worst of the money is refunds. And with Roger we are good to go.
Time to make the best damn game ever!

#19 6 years ago
Quoted from Hwawonyu:

In! look we had two fears. License and money. Worst of the money is refunds. And with Roger we are good to go.
Time to make the best damn game ever!

Wow I thought you were out with your Amex block chat and all that? You were the most 100% turnaround as you went to the Friday party right, and then Sat you seemed.. "ultra" out. Anyway, glad you are back (or never left) as case may be

#20 6 years ago

In. DP needs to tighten up their business and communication practices though. Hiring Roger was a nice start. Lots of small companies and start ups do really dumb stuff. Some of them recover. JJP did for the most part and I think DP will too.

They are so far along in the process that I think they could actually find financial help if they needed it.

I am also going to continue eating sausage, even though I have seen it made.

#21 6 years ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

Wow I thought you were out with your Amex block chat and all that? You were the most 100% turnaround as you went to the Friday party right, and then Sat you seemed.. "ultra" out. Anyway, glad you are back (or never left) as case may be

Dave can be just a *tad* fickle!.

#22 6 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

Dave can be just a *tad* fickle!.

Lol,
true dat. Bottom line is I needed to step away from the hype train and evaluate what was an issue vs what is real. Like I said. Phil is an issue and real but the worst of it is the funds get refunded. meanwhile everything I fell in love with is there. The team, the game and and its moving forward.
I also decided maybe this is my chance to help support someone I believe in.
So yup all in!

#23 6 years ago

Could someone tell me the advantage of pre-ordering besides getting your game sooner? thanks

#24 6 years ago
Quoted from ZenTron:

Could someone tell me the advantage of pre-ordering besides getting your game sooner? thanks

Aside from that its really supporting a game. The early folks also had some extra swag for their ride. Right now its being ahead of the pack and being on board to support DP being a major player.

#26 6 years ago

Still in. Want that In & Out Burger mod though!!

#27 6 years ago

Out for now, at least til the company is reorganized without Phil and has direction. Right now - today - Phil is still a principal of the company... one third owner of DPUSA, and based on this morning's email, there is obvious internal conflict WRT payments, refunds and access to the paypal account.
If one side or the other lawyers up, this could get ugly, and real slow. I'll wait for all that to be sorted out, then decide. Why tie up $6500 (due by Jan 1) of my cash in this fight?

#28 6 years ago

In, for the moment. As others have previously stated I'd really like to hear more from DP, the 2 emails have done little to assuage my concerns.

#29 6 years ago

Interesting to watch the results come in this afternoon.. seems like 45 people (assuming all are real pre-orders) out of 104 on RTR's list and about 50/50 most of the day.. (with Maybe slowing eating away at Yes's 50%). Seems statistically significant enough by now? (not a pollster)

I can say I feel a little better now.. you would think in that other thread anyone staying in was all alone over there.. and I'm sure losing half their pre-orders (if we extrapolate) over Phil's tirade sucks for them.. they definitely need to dig out of a ditch now. and at minimum convert the Maybe's to Yes's by figuring out the situation with Phil.

Sure feels like Phil* peed on all our rugs. *Not assigning sole responsibility to problem.

#30 6 years ago
Quoted from Hwawonyu:

Lol,
true dat. Bottom line is I needed to step away from the hype train and evaluate what was an issue vs what is real. Like I said. Phil is an issue and real but the worst of it is the funds get refunded. meanwhile everything I fell in love with is there. The team, the game and and its moving forward.
I also decided maybe this is my chance to help support someone I believe in.
So yup all in!

Glad you have made up your mind and have good intentions behind your motives. With the risk comes potential reward of getting a game you want. I hope it works out for you!

#31 6 years ago

Fence sitter. I got the unrequested refund for my first and only 2 payments. Need to listen to the podcasts still, but I'm leaning out right now. DP ignoring my emails for weeks didn't help. The VIP email today did not strike the right chord with me. Blame games aren't what I want to hear. If they can't get me my tshirt I'm not 100% confident there'll will be a game on my doorstep within a couple months. I want to be in supporting what I do believe will be an awesome game, but the incentive isn't there to push me past all this BS.

#32 6 years ago

Out until the game is made and shipped.

#33 6 years ago
Quoted from burningman:

I can understand that but he wasn't born yesterday. He would not put his reputation on the line if he once thought something was shady.

I swore to myself I wouldn't comment on the Phil/DP thing again, but this comment made me break.

I guess I'm sensitive to this whole recent story because I'm in the position of a hobby-business-partnership that people seem to equally follow and like (like DP and TBL). I was into reading the Phil thread early (like 3 pages long early) and had the meticulous opportunity to see it unfold in realtime. Not a rush-read. Not "War and Peace" or Cliffnotes. To follow it slowly, as each little snippet of information/evidence was revealed.

Being in the role I am in, I HAD to imagine how "bad" it must have been, backed up by the explanations and proof Phil was showing, and think of it in terms of "what would it have to be like for ME to reach this point" ???

Think about that for a second.

What I'm getting at is, the drama and millions of opinions/posts has seemingly diluted the original move (and motives) in the first place. It's seemingly forgotten (already) what it took to make a partner of a very positive/cool/groundbreaking project actually WANT to leave. And not just leave, but to get outta there - keep all my money I put in - and keep the future earnings.

Think about that for a second.

So again, from a CPR angle, if anything close to this ever happened here, say with me reaching some kind of point where I want to get as far away from CPR as possible and demand my name off everything... well, what in the hell would be going on inside CPR that caused that? Where I don't even want to be bought out? Where I don't want a penny, a stitch of product or gear, and I go and give every customer their money back that I can? Wow. It would have to be bad. And of course, to complete this analogy/scenario... I could only assume that the other CPR folks would send out email blasts that "everything is fine" "Kevin is disgruntled" and "he's handling this the wrong way" and smooooth everything over as quickly as possible. My original first-move statements and evidence would get whitewashed... and suddenly it's simply "a meltdown" (lol) and I can only sit there and facepalm, after I gave everybody EVERY detail... now whitewashed and overlooked. Merely the moves of an overreacting disgruntled ass, and the ship is *totally fine* and *nothing much to see here*.

I guess I'm still waaay back at the original inception to the Phil thing, and I haven't left there. It strikes me that something was truly bad enough that this kind of a jump-ship would take place. Something where a guy could not risk having his name on it, or peoples' money in his possession. Ask yourself - what would it take to get YOUR risk-meter that high, where you'd literally want out of one of the (or possibly thee) coolest pinball projects of the decade? AND leave your money behind. How "bad" would it have to get for you? I'm just wondering. I know my threshold - and it would have to be pretty bad for me to abandon CPR. Something really risky would have to be going on, and something that I couldn't control/stop. I've racked my brain for days now, trying to put my self in Phil's spot. Which makes me think nothing of Roger Sharpe stepping in at the moment. Just window dressing after-the-fact on what is still a mystery in my own mind - what it took to 180-turn a partner (an invested PARTNER) to jump ship in such a way.

I'll leave with an analogy:

You are a top chef.
You get together with two other top chefs.
You partner into a restaurant, with AMAZING food creations.
You put in $100,000 from your own pocket.
It's successful, and customers are coming in droves.
Every new dish/update you provide is cheered and encouraged.
Then after a while, there comes a point where you cannot work with the others in that kitchen.
The greatness by the public view on your place be damned, you can no longer participate.
But it was the coolest restaurant in the country.

You want out.
You don't even want your $100,000 back.
You forego all future successes.
You just want to be released.

So the question: what was going on in that kitchen that changed you?

I'm still trying to think of what it would take to make me want as far away from CPR as possible. None of it is good. None of it could be something that Roger Sharpe showing up could simply wash away.

Maybe this WAS the biggest overreaction in history. Over teeny concerns. But I doubt it.

Always think about that original premise. Putting those shoes on. What would it take for you.

Sorry if this is out of place for this thread. Just another couple pennies from a hobby biz point of view. I really hope they can forge forward and fix whatever it was. Get other money and finance/finish this puppy. They'll definitely all sell. And not many industries have the luxury to have such guarantees of revenue at the end. So that's a really good thing. Make the product and they WILL come.

#34 6 years ago
Quoted from KevinCPR:

I swore to myself I wouldn't comment on the Phil/DP thing again, but
So the question: what was going on in that kitchen that changed you?
I'm still trying to think of what it would take to make me want as far away from CPR as possible. None of it is good. None of it could be something that Roger Sharpe showing up could simply wash away.
Maybe this WAS the biggest overreaction in history. Over teeny concerns. But I doubt it.
Always think about that original premise. Putting those shoes on. What would it take for you.
Sorry if this is out of place for this thread.

In the C2C interview Phil said he would never steal the money because it would hurt ppl including friends. If the company was going to blowup, would he not contact all of us pre order ppl here in the US and abroad and tell us to file for full refunds ASAP? On Sunday I emailed Phil 2x with my order # and asked if he could refund my money even though the 2 payments were >45 days old. No response from Phil.

#35 6 years ago

KevinCPR , did you listen to the podcasts (particularily the one before the Roger one)? It provided a sense of perspective the thread does not. I don't know any of us can put ourselves in Phil's shoes as it is colored by facing some serious mortality with young kids still. Match that up with someone that (watch expo video) is super passionate; can see it in the expo talk.

Anyway, sure I can't imagine ever going on a tirade like that on a forum; but I can't imagine any of the other stuff he's going through either and what I would or would not let roll off my back anymore.

#36 6 years ago
Quoted from LITZ:

In the C2C interview Phil said

Quoted from sd_tom:

KevinCPR , did you listen to the podcasts

Man, this stuff moves FAST.

No, I had only been in this thread tonight. Thought the other thread had just dwindled on to a downward spiral of quibbling, animated GIFs, and zingers.

So there WAS some new information.

Thanks guys, I'll go take a listen.

EDIT: Listening now. I've never had time to follow pinball podcasts before. I've got to say, this Nate guy has a great radio voice. I used to be in radio on campus during my 4 years of university. Loved it. He's got a way better voice than me, tho

Quoted from LITZ:

No response from Phil.

I think it's been said he has a week of treatments going on right now. I have a fuzzy feeling that I don't think sunday & monday was the last PinSide will hear details from Phil... and I don't think his mission to refund will end until every penny in that account is given back, so he can close it. It is true that PayPal won't close an account with money in it.

Post edited by KevinCPR: the great Nate !

#37 6 years ago
Quoted from KevinCPR:

I'll leave with an analogy:
You are a top chef.
You get together with two other top chefs.
You partner into a restaurant, with AMAZING food creations.
You put in $100,000 from your own pocket.
It's successful, and customers are coming in droves.
Every new dish/update you provide is cheered and encouraged.
Then after a while, there comes a point where you cannot work with the others in that kitchen.
The greatness by the public view on your place be damned, you can no longer participate.
But it was the coolest restaurant in the country.

Yeah, I don't like this analogy at all. The other two chefs would have to have another restaurant at a different location. Which location supplies/pays for ingredients and all the other things involved? How is the accounting set up? What is their buy/sell agreement? Who owns the buildings and what are those costs or rent? Way too much jumping to conclusions for my taste.

Edit: Also, the other restaurant is actually making all the meals and shipping them over to this restaurant.

#38 6 years ago

I am on the fence about the whole fuckin thing. I was one that received a refund note from Phil Sunday morning via PayPal. Now I am waiting for the funds from Amex to hit my bank account. I feel DP should do us a solid for those of us who preordered and are willing to get back in. It would help me have more confidence in them by paying $4500 "once I have my money back", and then pay the balance once the game is on a fuckin pallet headed my direction. I also want a confident answer about their company's current plan and maybe an Org.chart with contact numbers. Who is in charge of what? Especially USA! This whole mess has probably added weeks to the build schedule. Berry.... When will I get my game dude? Feel free to pm me.

Kind Regards,

Limbo Buyer

#39 6 years ago

If you think about the remaining issue with Phil and that account.. As long as DP honors the value in that account as paid to them, and they don't need to spend what's left of the balance on game production, exactly when they get it sorted out with Phil is somewhat a separate issue.. It does not need to get solved "today". New payments / people repaying goes to them now.. So doesn't effect Jan payments. However if their cash flow is jammed up by this, then yes the account issue can direct affect the Q2 delivery.

Anyway, I hope it gets resolved but sort of stepping back a bit it might not be huge impact.. Sort of depends on what's the remaining balance; I imagine the >50% not going back in from people bailing hurts them more.. Which is some serious damage from a online rant :/

#40 6 years ago

Okay, listened to the #126 show. Likely enough for me. At least for tonight.

So my takeaways are that a) due to the close contact of Nate, I can consider his insider viewpoints to hold a good amount of water b) perception of how "bad" or "good" things are, simply happened to differ as polar opposite viewpoints between the partners. Everybody involved being uber-intelligent and uber-talented guys having good intentions, but there were opinions/methods that were stubbornly held to on either side with no compromise. Smart guys tend to want/need to be "right". c) One side, due to their own makeup and personality type, saw things completely opposite to the other side, due to their own makeup and personality type. One considered the sky is falling (to them) and the other completely not seeing it the same way (to them).

What might turn somebody 180 degrees from seeing something as an awesome project to suddenly horrible boat anchor, is obviously perceived different person to person. In this case, Phil's view should only be taken as his personal perception (at least that's what I'm getting from the story being told in the podcast). OK then.

If that's the story from behind the scenes, then I guess it fills in a lot of the blanks for me.

So I'll fall sleep a little easier tonight (these major hobby conflicts really bother me, cuz I don't want to see hobby biz brethren collapse).

#41 6 years ago

All these TBL threads only make me think.......MULTI-BAIL MADNESS!

#42 6 years ago

Got an unrequested refund but I'm hanging by a thread. I really don't care about Roger Sharpe. The licensing will work itself out and be awesome regardless. I care about production, schedules, communication, some appearance of organization. I also care about how BOP 2.0 has been handled and the state of its software. We'll see how things go in the next few weeks

#43 6 years ago

I've been in since July and I'm staying in! Regardless of the inane hysteria, negativity, and one-upmanship that is so prevalent on the Pinside TBL refund thread.

I'm going to continue to support DP's effort in completing a game that has been nothing but fantastic to date, and I'm confident that I will see one in my game room. It may very well take longer than originally planned, but that's okay - it will be well worth it!

#44 6 years ago
Quoted from erak:

All these TBL threads only make me think.......MULTI-BAIL MADNESS!

For me its, "Not now I have a headache!"

#45 6 years ago

I'm staying in. Been in since day one. Loved the movie since its release

Concerned? Yes, but I have a lot of hope and faith in what I've seen so far from DP. They seem like they really want to make their mark in the industry. Could things be handled better? Yes, but a growing company is going to have troubles. All companies do, the public just isn't privy to them.

#46 6 years ago

I'm sticking with DP

#47 6 years ago

Staying in on TBL.

#48 6 years ago

In, all the way.

#49 6 years ago

I'm Staying..Drinking my coffee, staying with DP all the way.

#50 6 years ago

In and in... Staying true the a great theme and the good guys behind it! Have faith, in fact I am going a second machine as I think this could be another BBB if kept NIB....???

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