(Topic ID: 112832)

TBL-Phil and DP USA...


By burningman

4 years ago



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  • Latest reply 4 years ago by robin
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-42
#1 4 years ago

I have read every post on the other thread, talked with Barry at great length at Modern Pinball and will be the first one to say I do NOT know everything about this situation, but it may put a little light on what’s going on. My post could be completely wrong, but this is how I see it.

DP was started with 3 dudes saying they thought it would be cool to build a pinball machine. These 3 dudes were friends for many years.

They needed a way to facilitate the US market. They decide that since one of the 3 is a US citizen that he could head up the USA market. DB BV took Phil's word that he could take care of the US side of things, and DP BV could take care of manufacturing and Europe distribution. I feel that DP BV looked at Phil, with his education and general knowledge of how things work in the USA, that he had the ball. DP BV would move money by request to Phil from the DP USA account to the DP BV account to pay for expenses. These expenses could be getting the line up, advertising, and in the end, building the games.

Phil set up a paypal account that represented DP USA. For some reason, he attached his own SS number to that account. This could have been because of ignorance, being lazy, or per-meditated. who knows, but that's what happened.

Phil was irritated at DP BV at the DPO event. At that time, I was not aware of his illness. Maybe he knew about it then, I don't know. After seeing the dialogue between him and Barry, I only see Barry as trying to come to a calm resolution with Phil, wanting him to stay on until the pre-orders are done. I didn't see any ultimatums from Barry. Just a simple reply. And the shit storm started.

Phil locked out the other two partners from the assets of the Corporation (DP USA) that the three of them are partners in. Then basically started a shit storm by sending refunds that were not authorized by the other partners of the Corporation. If Phil truly wanted to make a clean break he easily could have done it.

-sent out a note on DP letterhead signed by the three partners. Stating that DP USA was either being dissolved and/or he was removing his interest in the Company. In this communication, the outline of how the pre-order deposits would be handled. i.e. Transferred to DP BV, refunded and then resubmitted, etc.

-then took action to allow the process to work.

Instead we get a note with our Paypal refund that just says, “here’s a refund”.

I am calling bull shit on Phil right here and right now.
Barry was trying to come to some type of resolution with Phil. Phil wanted it now, now, now (stomping his feet like a 3 year old.) Then, went rogue with the refunds.

I don’t want to hear about Phil crying about his friends and him protecting the USA pre-orders. I hear a 3 year old throwing a tantrum because he didn’t get his way. If Phil was really concerned about his “friends,” the pre-orders, and his family, he would not have acted in such a manner. He has managed to do at least these things.

--jepordized DP in the Pinball Community
--jepordized all of the Pre-order customers with having to deal with his shit
--putting his family at more risk than if he had dealt with this in a professional manner.

I have a hard time believing someone, under such an illness, wanting to go to the mat over this. Many companies have had partners leave suddenly etc….but as long as they all work together things can get sorted out. Like many other people said, and I'll repeat this again, it's just not that easy. If you have responsibilities in a company you can't just get out - you have to work together and find a solution. I know for sure Barry and Jaap wanted this.

I have found that dealing with irrational people in a rational way is like beating your head against the wall. I think that’s the feeling that Barry and Jaap have right now. Going back to my original statement, these guys had been friends for many years. I can see where there was an assumed trust between the three of them, just like we gave our money to Phil in "good faith" that he would provide us a TBL. Our problem is with Phil, not DP BV. Phil was our distributor here in the USA for DP BV, and he is being a dick (was going to use the term "unprofessional" but we are way past that.)

I still have mass confidence in the entire team. I hope all of this gives them even more motivation to deliver TBL as the epic game it is.

#2 4 years ago

doesn't this thread already exist or was that closed?

#3 4 years ago

no that thread got into whether or not Stern games were as good as B/W games

#4 4 years ago

I have not commented on this because I have no stock in the game and no funds for it. That said, this is a dream grail for a lot of you guys and I hope everything works out (which it should). Stay positive and I hope you guys enjoy your game real soon.

#5 4 years ago
Quoted from burningman:

no that thread got into whether or not Stern games were as good as B/W games

oh... i haven't seen a thread devolve into that argument recently. Glad that came back.

Glad to hear you still have faith. I hope you are rewarded for that faith and that nobody pisses on your rug.

11
#6 4 years ago

No offense meant to you burningman but I have read 2000+ posts of people's opinions and what they think of the situation, I'm kind of sick it. Then I get half ass e-mail responses from DP(Barry) about how they want my support but "Oh Ya, sorry can't get your money you sent to our company but will be glad to forward on the request to Phil". F- this, it is a clown show and they need to get this straightened out before the lawsuits begin.

This is MY money that is being held hostage, they need to give it back to me one way or another, then I'll worry about them making a damn pinball and decide if I still feel like supporting them. Everyday I get no response or some basic e-mail it ain't looking real good.

10
#7 4 years ago

big lebowski drink.gif
#8 4 years ago

I've read/listened to everything, including what Roger Sharpe had to say on Coast 2 Coast pinball.

There are definitely 2 sides to the story and I am honestly torn.

I don't agree with the way Phil went about airing out all the dirty laundry on a public forum, including private correspondence. HOWEVER it's really not hard to see why he may have acted irrationally when he is THAT sick and feels he may not have much time left.

The last thing anyone should have on their mind when trying to heal from cancer is whether their family may be left with a huge burden of debt and possibly fraudulent business partners.

#9 4 years ago
Quoted from burningman:

I have read every post on the other thread, talked with Barry at great length at Modern Pinball and will be the first one to say I do NOT know everything about this situation, but it may put a little light on what’s going on. My post could be completely wrong, but this is how I see it.
DP was started with 3 dudes saying they thought it would be cool to build a pinball machine. These 3 dudes were friends for many years.
They needed a way to facilitate the US market. They decide that since one of the 3 is a US citizen that he could head up the USA market. DB BV took Phil's word that he could take care of the US side of things, and DP BV could take care of manufacturing and Europe distribution. I feel that DP BV looked at Phil, with his education and general knowledge of how things work in the USA, that he had the ball. DP BV would move money by request to Phil from the DP USA account to the DP BV account to pay for expenses. These expenses could be getting the line up, advertising, and in the end, building the games.
Phil set up a paypal account that represented DP USA. For some reason, he attached his own SS number to that account. This could have been because of ignorance, being lazy, or per-meditated. who knows, but that's what happened.
Phil was irritated at DP BV at the DPO event. At that time, I was not aware of his illness. Maybe he knew about it then, I don't know. After seeing the dialogue between him and Barry, I only see Barry as trying to come to a calm resolution with Phil, wanting him to stay on until the pre-orders are done. I didn't see any ultimatums from Barry. Just a simple reply. And the shit storm started.
Phil locked out the other two partners from the assets of the Corporation (DP USA) that the three of them are partners in. Then basically started a shit storm by sending refunds that were not authorized by the other partners of the Corporation. If Phil truly wanted to make a clean break he easily could have done it.
-sent out a note on DP letterhead signed by the three partners. Stating that DP USA was either being dissolved and/or he was removing his interest in the Company. In this communication, the outline of how the pre-order deposits would be handled. i.e. Transferred to DP BV, refunded and then resubmitted, etc.
-then took action to allow the process to work.
Instead we get a note with our Paypal refund that just says, “here’s a refund”.
I am calling bull shit on Phil right here and right now.
Barry was trying to come to some type of resolution with Phil. Phil wanted it now, now, now (stomping his feet like a 3 year old.) Then, went rogue with the refunds.
I don’t want to hear about Phil crying about his friends and him protecting the USA pre-orders. I hear a 3 year old throwing a tantrum because he didn’t get his way. If Phil was really concerned about his “friends,” the pre-orders, and his family, he would not have acted in such a manner. He has managed to do at least these things.
--jepordized DP in the Pinball Community
--jepordized all of the Pre-order customers with having to deal with his shit
--putting his family at more risk than if he had dealt with this in a professional manner.
I have a hard time believing someone, under such an illness, wanting to go to the mat over this. Many companies have had partners leave suddenly etc….but as long as they all work together things can get sorted out. Like many other people said, and I'll repeat this again, it's just not that easy. If you have responsibilities in a company you can't just get out - you have to work together and find a solution. I know for sure Barry and Jaap wanted this.
I have found that dealing with irrational people in a rational way is like beating your head against the wall. I think that’s the feeling that Barry and Jaap have right now. Going back to my original statement, these guys had been friends for many years. I can see where there was an assumed trust between the three of them, just like we gave our money to Phil in "good faith" that he would provide us a TBL. Our problem is with Phil, not DP BV. Phil was our distributor here in the USA for DP BV, and he is being a dick (was going to use the term "unprofessional" but we are way past that.)
I still have mass confidence in the entire team. I hope all of this gives them even more motivation to deliver TBL as the epic game it is.

Great, you talked to Barry.
Have you talked to Phil?
The man has cancer. He has a wife and children.
I say, cut him some slack.
The only words I have heard on this topic I trust came from Nate at c2c.
He is a good pinhead and a good journalist.
He got both sides and reported the facts.
With his reporting we all know the game will get made.
People will get their game or a refund if they choose.
All you did was kick a man when he is down with name calling.
Stay classy dude.

#10 4 years ago

I hope you get your game.. But venting the way you are isn't going to get it to your door any quicker...

#11 4 years ago

yeah sorry.. I don't see why we need a another thread. Maybe you should drain the other one Poking Phil at this point might get more response from him; which I know I don't want to see. I want them to sort it out behind the scenes and get back to me.

That, and after all the refunds have been processed or going to be processed, I'm not sure the balance left in that account is significant to the production of the machines. It is certainly significant to Barry/Jaap as that may be where their profits are stored, but hoping they have enough from people who re-upped to get the games rolling, which will lead to new orders which will lead to new profits. If it takes some extended period of time to get the money from Phil; that doesn't necessarily have to effect us customers if my assumptions are correct. (They are however, assumptions). Certainly doesn't have to be solved in "internet time"

#12 4 years ago
Quoted from asay:

I've read/listened to everything, including what Roger Sharpe had to say on Coast 2 Coast pinball.
There are definitely 2 sides to the story and I am honestly torn.
I don't agree with the way Phil went about airing out all the dirty laundry on a public forum, including private correspondence. HOWEVER it's really not hard to see why he may have acted irrationally when he is THAT sick and feels he may not have much time left.
The last thing anyone should have on their mind when trying to heal from cancer is whether their family may be left with a huge burden of debt and possibly fraudulent business partners.

Totally agree...and that is why I still lay burden on Phil. When you look at their pasts, Phil was the business guy, Jaap was the manufacturing guy, and Barry the development guy. As one said in the other post, business partners make plans for such things. Buy-sell agreements, key man insurance, etc...Barry and Jaap probably looked to Phil to bring the expertise of his education to the partnership, and let the business man take care of business. Now he wants to lay blame on Barry and Jaap as to why he can't just leave.

#13 4 years ago
Quoted from burningman:

Totally agree...and that is why I still lay burden on Phil. When you look at their pasts, Phil was the business guy, Jaap was the manufacturing guy, and Barry the development guy. As one said in the other post, business partners make plans for such things. Buy-sell agreements, key man insurance, etc...Barry and Jaap probably looked to Phil to bring the expertise of his education to the partnership, and let the business man take care of business. Now he wants to lay blame on Barry and Jaap as to why he can't just leave.

You know, that is
Probably a completelty reasonable thing to conclude.

12
#14 4 years ago

Why do we need yet another thread about TBL, especially when this one is basically just one dude trying to blame one side without knowing all the facts?

Move to close, anyone second?

#15 4 years ago

I'm crossing my fingers that someone starts a mirror thread "tbl Barry/Jaap and dp USA/BV" so they can do a one sided take on the "facts" like this thread. I'm getting all tingly just thinking about the prospects. Here's to **another** tbl thread. Woohoo!

#16 4 years ago

I second it. Close this thread.

#17 4 years ago

You guys can take this as me giving cheap shots to Phil while he has Cancer. Cancer has nothing to do with the fact that these guys trusted him to do the right thing well before the illness was known. Cancer is serious, my mother died from it a few years ago. So I am not giving any cheap shots.

But having an illness does not give you a get out of jail free card. Nor does saying, "I was drunk, I didn't mean to....(fill in the blank)"

#18 4 years ago
Quoted from bemmett:

This is MY money that is being held hostage, they need to give it back to me one way or another, then I'll worry about them making a damn pinball and decide if I still feel like supporting them. Everyday I get no response or some basic e-mail it ain't looking real good.

This misunderstanding is the problem with the "pre-order" model. It is no longer your $ once you gave it to them and it does not earn you the right to full financial disclosure. The fact that so many people don't understand the risk they took with their money is alarming!

I hope you get your refund.

#19 4 years ago
Quoted from burningman:

nor does saying, "I was drunk, I didn't mean to....(fill in the blank)"

Uh oh, iceman is in trouble if that's not a viable defense. A 1/3 of his posts fall into that category.

#20 4 years ago
Quoted from burningman:

You guys can take this as me giving cheap shots to Phil while he has Cancer.

No offense to a fellow nova guy but this isn't the issue. You're coming off as a DP homer. You have it as your avatar for Pete's sake. No one is expecting you to be objective or impartial. I get it, you believe. That's great. The thing is, if you have to convince others to believe, you have bigger problems.

#21 4 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

Why do we need yet another thread about TBL, especially when this one is basically just one dude trying to blame one side without knowing all the facts?
Move to close, anyone second?

Third.

#22 4 years ago

This thread has as much value as the other one now does; that is to say, none.

-12
#23 4 years ago
Quoted from Skins:

No offense to a fellow nova guy but this isn't the issue. You're coming off as a DP homer. You have it as your Avatar for Pete's sake. No one is expecting you to be objective or impartial. I get it, you believe. That's great. The thing is, if you have to convince others to believe, you have bigger problems.

Everyone is screaming about wanting refunds? where's the money? etc etc...and putting the blame on DP BV. DP BV is not the problem here folks...DP USA is the problem.

If a distributor of Stern's failed to release funds to Stern, would everyone be bitching at Stern? No, they would be beating up on the distributor.

All I kept seeing was poor Phil. People...Phil is the problem.

#24 4 years ago
Quoted from burningman:

Everyone is screaming about wanting refunds? where's the money? etc etc...and putting the blame on DP BV. DP BV is not the problem here folks...DP USA is the problem.
If a distributor of Stern's failed to release funds to Stern, would everyone be bitching at Stern? No, they would be beating up on the distributor.
All I kept seeing was poor Phil. People...Phil is the problem.

Until you have Cancer and have to go through Chemo then I think you better slow your roll...

If Phil is going through Chemo, I am betting he is in bed sick and asleep. You better hope the man makes it though this or then who is going to get you your money, as DP-BV doesn't seem to be stepping up to the plate...

#25 4 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

Why do we need yet another thread about TBL, especially when this one is basically just one dude trying to blame one side without knowing all the facts?
Move to close, anyone second?

Agreed...

Shut'em down...

#26 4 years ago
Quoted from burningman:

Everyone is screaming about wanting refunds? where's the money? etc etc...and putting the blame on DP BV. DP BV is not the problem here folks...DP USA is the problem.

No. People are blaming "Dutch Pinball". The company is still comprised of all three principals, and the company is no longer functioning properly. People don't care which of the two is "at fault", they just want DP to get their shit together and build the f*cking machines. Trying to goad people into choosing sides is counterproductive at this point.

#27 4 years ago

I have no dog in the fight, but from what I read....

Phil leaves DP and announces it to Pinside.

He tells his partners the paypal account needs to be out of his name and corrected. There are issues with personal withdrawal by the DP team overseas and this worries him.

6 weeks go by. Nothing is done EXCEPT another similarly name account is opened using his name.

So if DP takes money out of this paypal account, and then fails to deliver games to customers, a lawsuit gets filed.

Who are the preorders going to sue? Some Dutch company 10,000 miles away or the US portion that took the initial deposits?

Very simple. I would have done the same thing, aside from the public "Airing of the Grievances."

Happy-Festivus.jpg

#28 4 years ago
Quoted from burningman:

All I kept seeing was poor Phil. People...Phil is the problem.

That's just plain wrong.

Phil is *part* of the problem.

To blame him and him alone shows a lack of objectivity on your part in my opinion. I.e., you are becoming a fanboy.

And I'm still willing to enter that friendly wager about you getting your TBL delivered before June 2015.

#29 4 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

Trying to goad people into choosing sides is counterproductive at this point.

Agreed, and that's what this new thread comes down to.

Especially with statements like this:

Quoted from burningman:

I am calling bull shit on Phil right here and right now.

#30 4 years ago

Geez - As if we need another thread on DP...
Lock it please!!

#31 4 years ago

In before the lock...

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#32 4 years ago

arsenio scream1.gif
#33 4 years ago
Quoted from burningman:

no that thread got into whether or not Stern games were as good as B/W games

They aren't.

#34 4 years ago

Correct.

They are better.

#35 4 years ago
Quoted from paulywalnuts23:

Until you have Cancer and have to go through Chemo then I think you better slow your roll...
If Phil is going through Chemo, I am betting he is in bed sick and asleep. You better hope the man makes it though this or then who is going to get you your money, as DP-BV doesn't seem to be stepping up to the plate...

Exactly...thats my point. My mother was in chemo and had radiation. It was terrible. She didn't make it. But to come in and create such a shit storm days before treatment? With his education, professor of marketing, etc, he should have prepared for all of this when becoming a partner.

I'll tell you who gets the money....and neither us or his family want that to happen

Another thing that no one is looking at is what he has done to the Dutch Pinball Brand long term. I know exactly what I would do if he was a partner in my company and he acted this way.

You guys can say I am one-sided but he is the one holding our money, not DP BV. He is the hostage taker. He is the one standing in front of the vault. All I want him to do is allow DP BV to access my deposits, and to make my game and ship it to my door. Period.

#36 4 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

Correct.
They are better.

Damn.

I saw "correct" and I was all like "Yeah this Rob T is makin' sense and we are bros on the same side!"

And then...BAM!

You get me with the "Sterns are BETTER!"

I gotta admit that was well-played but take it easy on that stuff in the future. My ticker can't handle another emotional rollercoaster like that

#37 4 years ago

Why the hell do we have another thread on this? What is it going to solve? Nothing. It's just finger pointing, won't fix anything, and duplicates information that's already living in another place. If that thread is off track it's because there's nothing more to be said.

Quoted from burningman:

Phil was irritated at DP BV at the DPO event. At that time, I was not aware of his illness. Maybe he knew about it then, I don't know.

Phil's cancer is not a new thing, he's been battling three forms of it, and looking successful on two fronts. The last one is what he's still trying to beat. Anyone close to him has known about it, but it wasn't a topic for public discussion because it's his private life. He changed that by bringing it up himself.

It's relevant to the conversation now, so I guess there's no point in ignoring it, but please don't try and turn this into some kind of gotcha.

#38 4 years ago
Quoted from burningman:

I have read every post on the other thread, talked with Barry at great length at Modern Pinball and will be the first one to say I do NOT know everything about this situation.

This is where you should have stopped. This thread is useless. Lock it down.

#39 4 years ago

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#40 4 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

Correct.
They are better.

Keep dreaming...

#41 4 years ago

I think some vagrant used this thread as a toilet and moved on.

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#42 4 years ago

There are few games better than Attack from Mars or Metallica

There are tons of games better than 24 or Junkyard.

#43 4 years ago

Please lock....we dont need another thread just to hear your opinion

#44 4 years ago

I just love it when people take the B/W vs Stern shit seriously.

#45 4 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

There are few games better than Attack from Mars or Metallica
There are tons of games better than 24 or junkyard.

Cute but I don't buy it. First of there's plenty of games as good as Metallica. There are very few as good as Attack From Mars.

Second off, Stern has churned out a lot more 24s than Williams/Bally did Junkyards.

Third - you totally suck for confusing me at first with your post. It's been a long day.

#46 4 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

There are few games better than Attack from Mars or Metallica
There are tons of games better than 24 or junkyard.

Both great games very true, but which manufactures hold down the top 5 in the top 100 on this website?

#47 4 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

I just love it when people take the B/W vs Stern shit seriously.

Now come on.. I am not going to fight anyone about it...

-1
#48 4 years ago
Quoted from burningman:

All I want him to do is allow DP BV to access my deposits, and to make my game and ship it to my door. Period.

Umm yeah, you might want to remove TBL from your collection list indefinitely...just sayin'

#49 4 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

There are few games better than Attack from Mars or Metallica

...well, you're half right...

#50 4 years ago
Quoted from paulywalnuts23:

Now come on.. I am not going to fight anyone about it...

Well why not?

Does that mean you aren't really a true B/W believer?

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