(Topic ID: 180976)

Target switch stopped working after LEDs- SOLVED

By ZeldaOoT

7 years ago


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Elektra.jpg
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#1 7 years ago

Hello all, hoping someone can help me out. I installed LEDs into my Elektra today. Looks great, however one issue. The top left green target switch is no longer registering. In self test it identifies it as one that is stuck on, but it has a gap. When I close the gap nothing registers or changes. Any ideas what could be happening?

My guess was perhaps I caused a loose connection/broken solder somewhere along the way but the other two targets connected to it function. I've attached pictures- it's the target on the left with the bright orange cap.

Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks.

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#2 7 years ago

You've got a short across that switch, that's why it's registering in switch mode as being closed.
Are the long leads on that bright orange capacitor touching each other? How about the terminals it's soldered to, did you accidentally bend them so they're touching each other?

BTW, that bright orange capacitor is the wrong value. It looks like a 39pf (pico farad) capacitor and should be a 0.05uf (micro farad) capacitor or 0.047uf as a common value replacement.

#3 7 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

BTW, that bright orange capacitor is the wrong value. It looks like a 39pf (pico farad) capacitor and should be a 0.05uf (micro farad) capacitor or 0.047uf as a common value replacement.

I'll check again for a short. Anything else it could be?

With regards to the capacitor, I figured it was wrong. Stuck out like a sore thumb. What sort of impact does having that wrong capacitor have? I can get one and swap it, just curious if any problems it may cause. I may have some other areas with wrong caps as well from a previous owner.

#4 7 years ago

The top connection on the switch looks pretty sketchy.

#5 7 years ago
Quoted from ZeldaOoT:

I'll check again for a short. Anything else it could be?

It's got to be something you've moved/bent when changing the lamps. Post a few more pics from different angles showing the switch connections. Basically look for anything in the area touching that shouldn't be.

BTW, try the switch test in self test mode again, but this time remove the ball from the outhole and lift the playfield so the ball in the lower playfield isn't closing any switches, and reset all inline drop targets to up position. Is the result any different?

Quoted from ZeldaOoT:

What sort of impact does having that wrong capacitor have?

The capacitor is there to extend the time of switch closures so the MPU board can properly sense them. The value of that capacitor is so low that it's barely having any impact, so you're going to notice that some quick hits on that target won't be recognised. The value is not your current problem though.

Quoted from SUPERBEE:

The top connection on the switch looks pretty sketchy.

Yeah some of the solder joints on those switches need attention, and those capacitor leads are unnecessarily long.

#6 7 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

BTW, try the switch test in self test mode again, but this time remove the ball from the outhole and lift the playfield so the ball in the lower playfield isn't closing any switches, and reset all inline drop targets to up position. Is the result any different?

I've been running the switch test this way, still #21.

I'll check the rest and report back.

#7 7 years ago

So I took another look at this (frustrating) target. Given the power on the grey/yellow wire is going across the jumpers to the other two targets, in my mind that wire can't be the issue. Within the switch, the leafs aren't touching or jumping. That leaves the brownish colored wire. Is there any straight forward way to test that wire for a short or continuity?

Does this logically make sense? Is there anything I'm taking into consideration that could be a possibility?

I did find one break in a ground wire for some GI that I fixed, but that didn't impact the target switch. Still #20.

#8 7 years ago

Are you sure you don't have a short at the bottom of that left switch behind where it is soldered? Between the two terminals sometimes there are some strands of wire that are extending toward the other contact. You may be able to stick your finger between the two contacts to make sure there is a gap (with the game off of course).

I would take your meter and do continuity tests between the different terminals of the switch, diodes and capacitors.

#9 7 years ago
Quoted from DCFAN:

I would take your meter and do continuity tests between the different terminals of the switch, diodes and capacitors.

I just tested continuity- just like the other switches, no continuity with power off between the three terminals. I also checked continuity on the leaves in the switch itself, no continuity there either.

I wasn't able to find any strands of wire anywhere- here are a couple more pics.

2017-02-14 14.00.35 (resized).jpg2017-02-14 14.00.35 (resized).jpg

2017-02-14 14.00.49 (resized).jpg2017-02-14 14.00.49 (resized).jpg

#10 7 years ago

Check under that electrical tape.

#11 7 years ago
Quoted from dsuperbee:

Check under that electrical tape.

Under that electrical tape, the wire just has a little knick in the coating exposing the wires. Do you think that's enough to cause the issue? The wires don't look frayed underneath.

#12 7 years ago
Quoted from ZeldaOoT:

Under that electrical tape, the wire just has a little knick in the coating exposing the wires. Do you think that's enough to cause the issue? The wires don't look frayed underneath.

Most likely not. I was guessing it was a poorly made connection for a broken wire.

#13 7 years ago

Okay- so I've got an interesting update. First, I checked to make sure there was continuity from the pins that connect to J2 on the MPU for each wire that work with that switch (the grey w/ yellow and brownish one). They had continuity.

After checking for continuity again at the switch with the power on and comparing how the other switches function, sure enough that target has continuity through it with the power on when the others don't.

I removed the wires and components soldered onto the terminals and reattached them one at a time. What I learned is that one of the brown wires produces the symptoms. When the one brown wire touches anything- the switch, a lamp socket, a set of pliers, anything metal- it sets off the "switch 21 on" portion.

So my question to you all- what on earth does this mean? My guess is the problem is along that wire somewhere? Do I try to remove it from the wire harnesses and see if there is an issue somewhere along the way?

Looking forward to your responses. Sorry to drag this thing on.

I attached a schematic to help out. The wires in question are A4J2-3 (93 or grey w/ yellow) and A4J2-12 (60 or brown).

diagram (resized).pngdiagram (resized).png

#14 7 years ago

When that brown wire pair (still connected to each other) is disconnected from the switch lug and left floating in mid air, does the switch test in service mode show any other switches as being closed? You may have a problem elsewhere in the switch matrix that's causing a phantom switch closure at this target.

Those switch input lines are rather sensitive, I wouldn't read anything into the fact that touching the brown wire on other things sets it off. Try it with the white/brown wire on the centre target for your curiosity, but don't connect it to the lamp socket - that's a different power circuit and is asking for trouble.

Note, the continuity mode on your multi-meter outputs low voltage to the leads, it is not designed to be performed on a device (pinball) while the device is on. You could damage the meter/circuit being measured.

Following your schematic above, check the brown wire signal where it's connected to the other switches on the playfield for any obvious issues. Note, this switch input signal also goes to one of the two stacked switches on the left flipper button and is a blue/yellow wire.

#15 7 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

When that brown wire pair (still connected to each other) is disconnected from the switch lug and left floating in mid air, does the switch test in service mode show any other switches as being closed?

When they are connected and floating they set off switch 21 as closed, but disconnected and floating all appear fine.

Quoted from Quench:

Note, this switch input signal also goes to one of the two stacked switches on the left flipper button and is a blue/yellow wire.

Can you eloaborate what you mean by this? My appears to be black and yellow and I'm unsure for what purpose you're having me look here, sorry.

I'll check the other locations for brown also.

I appreciate the help!

#16 7 years ago

So I worked through the brown wire (60 or A4J2-12), interesting results (in my opinion). So I realized that as long as both wires weren't touching like I mentioned before, it wouldn't be falsely closed. If I only connected the brown wire from the MPU board to the 21 switches, it would work properly. Connecting the other wire connected the other switches. I repeated with each mentioned on the matrix for that wire (unsolder, connect one, test, resolder both, move on). The middle #1 target switch, right outlane switch, and #5 blue switch all functioned perfectly and gave no false closed signals for #21 as long as both wires weren't connected at the same time. The moment they were, #21 didn't work.

So that leaves me very confused since each switch functioned properly, but when they are all connected it doesn't like #21. That left me thinking two things
1) Is there anywhere else I should be tracing that wire to test?
2) On the schematic I showed, it looks like they all somewhat go to the solenoid expander relay. Given mine is temperamental at the moment, could that play an impact? I have a new one on order. Unplugging my solenoid expander didn't make any difference (not sure if that's the same as the 'relay').
3) Could it be an issue with my MPU board? I would really think/hope not because my board is new and looks perfect.

Looking forward to your thoughts. Thanks again.

#17 7 years ago

I just checked the schematic again. Switch 21 is located on the upper playfield AND the lower playfield. Please check the bottom left switch on the lower playfield. See below:

Elektra.jpgElektra.jpg

#18 7 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Switch 21 is located on the upper playfield AND the lower playfield.

Well isn't that tricky.... I'll be sure to take a look tonight.

#19 7 years ago

A special thanks to @quench. Sure enough, he secret second 21 switch was the one with an issue (capacitor bend onto a terminal). This would have been a much quicker fix had I realized there were a few switches like 21 that register in two areas. Thanks for the help, man!

#20 7 years ago

Good work!!

4 years later
#21 2 years ago

This is an addendum to the thread that may help those with similar Elektra related issues as described above.

I seem to have the same problem with my Elektra. After removing the lower most playfield to work on some touchup painting, I came up with the idea to try a game without the lower most playfield to see what happens with the unresponsive 2,3,4,5,6 target lights / switches in the upper most playfield...and voila, they all worked and registered points / Elektra units as they should!

This means I'm more than half way there to solving the problem and likely just have to worry about finding a fault with the corresponding targets / switches in the lower most playfield.

So, for those that may run across similar problems with their Elektra, it may help to first trouble shoot and potentially isolate the location of the problem by simply unplugging the two lower most playfield wiring harness connectors, starting a game and manually manipulating the upper most playfield targets / switches.

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