Munfordville, KY
I have a target alpha stuck in tilt. I have the schematic. I don’t see anything on an tilt switches. Where would you look next?
(Topic ID: 249969)
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Target Alpha
Gottlieb, 1976
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Is your Tilt relay stuck on? If so you'll need to sort out why.
Target Alpha Tilt relay (resized).jpg
If it's getting power one or more of the three Tilt switches (orange-white-red wire to red-yellow wire) could be stuck closed, or its solder tabs could be touching or could be shorted somehow.
/Mark
Quoted from Patrickr:I have a target alpha stuck in tilt.
Can you elaborate a little on what's happening? Does the game do anything? Does it respond to the start button or a coin drop? Are there credits on the Replay Unit? Does it do anything if you manually push in the armature on the S/Start relay with a wooden dowel? Is the 15 amp fuse on the 25volt circuit good?
Quoted from Patrickr:I closed it an manually pushed the rest control relay
What relay?
The Reset Control relay (AX) is a tetchy one, with some make/breaks switches that have very little space between correct gap and incorrect so spend some time down close to make sure they're adjusted correctly. I've also gotten into kind of a loop with it, so try starting with it latched/unlatched and see what happens.
Good news I started all over. Cleaned jones plugs and all switches. No more tilt. However I still can’t play. When I turn it on and push the start button nothing happens. If I manually push the start button the the R hold button locks on. Then you have to manually push the H hold button for it to lock on. Then I manually push in the ax and nothing but the flippers do become active.I haven’t been able to push in anything to rest the score reels or drop targets. Any ideas are greatly appreciated.
Leduc, AB
2 weeks later
Quoted from Patrickr:When I turn it on and push the start button nothing happens. If I manually push the start button the the R hold button locks on.
Check the start sequence here
Quoted from Patrickr:Should I start another topic?
No
Capture (resized).PNGHere is where I am now. I have six credits on the machine. I push the start button. It resets the drop targets but does not rest the score reals. It doesn’t even seam to try to rest the score reals. All of the pop bumpers and flippers work and it scores on whatever player it’s on at the time. No ball number shows up nether. Thanks for the help so far!
I think you need to check the AX to start. It's very tetchy and has two make/breaks that have to be adjusted just right for everything else to work. After that Z1 and Z2 do the score reel resets; they're on the right in the backbox.
Skip down here to the part about AX: http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#reset
Quoted from Patrickr:What is the (470 ohm 2 watt) it shows on the z1 and z2 relay
That's a resistor, which is weird because it's not there, at least on mine. Not unknown to have part of the schematic not match though.
Quoted from Patrickr:I found both resisters.
Where?
I’ve noticed that when I turn mine on 2nd and 3rd player stay lit up. Usually it’s 2nd and 3rd and whatever one is scoring. I can’t always get the start button to work. So if I push the coil in on the PU the light move from 1-4 but 2 and 3 are always on?
I keep wondering if I have a broke switch blade on the score motor. I don’t have a diagram of them and was wondering if someone could post one? I have never seen a ball in play light or number of players playing . I also have a wire in the coin unit I don’t know where it goes. I’m going to post the picture.
954878E2-F21E-4F59-9BE0-00354CC54B46 (resized).jpegOk I went back and worked on the Ax and bx relays. It now will coin up, reset the PU unit and resets the score reals. I also adjust the pressure on the First switch on the PU unit it was getting hung there. The only issue now is every now and then it won’t end the game after ball 5 the ball goes in the out hole and the score real continue to run. And one time it got stuck on ball one and stayed there. I thought maybe some one had one of these problems before. I figure a switch is close real close to being right but just close. If that make sense.
Quoted from Patrickr:I figure a switch is close real close to being right but just close. If that make sense.
Betting it's the AX. It's a real PITA to get right. This snippet shows the lines leading to Game Over.
Capture (resized).PNG
Aarau
Hi Patrickr +
how often does the fault "won't end after ball five" happen ? once in ten games ?
See the JPG - encircled "rosa / pink" are switches (I believe) currieddog is mentioning in his post-38. When the Q-Game-Over-Relay does pull-in for a moment - but then quit pulling: These encircled switches and/or theirs wiring can be the cause of the problem (not seeing Game-Over in the Backglass).
Play many ONE-Player-Games --- when the fault happens: Look at the lights on the players score-drums - see the bottom of the JPG: The drums on Player-1 probably are lighted by "switch P1F on the Player-Unit" --- how about the other drums ? The drums on player-2 and -3 are lighted when the BX-Relay has actuated - on player-4 when the Q-Relay is pulling --- what is lighted in Your pin when the fault is happening ?
Target Alpha is a very late - very modern EM Pin --- the Coin-Unit is made to reset to its "sub-player-1-resetted-position" - I show in the JPG what happens in a ONE-Player-Game when the player looses the fifth ball. Early in play the DX-First-Ball-Relay was made to actuate - "encircled green switch DX" is closed --- now it is the last ball in a ONE-Player-Game - all the time playing the last ball the Player-Unit is in position-16 (my green curved line) - the ball is then lost, bonus is counted / given - the O-Ball-Return-Relay pulls-in, stays pulling (, makes the motor to run). Through "encircled green switch "O", closed as O-Relay now pulls: The BX-Relay is made to actuate. Now comes "my blue stuff" - the motor turning closes its encircled-blue switch and BX-Relay and O-Relay are pulling - the switches are closed: The Coin-Unit is made to reset (!). Now comes "my red stuff" - Through the resetted Coin-Unit the Q-Game-Over-Relay is made to pull-in.
See the fault "my brown stuff" - when the BX-Relay is faulty not made to actuate --- its switch is closed --- the pulling O-Relay (switch closed) --- the Ball-Return-Kicker (Outhole-Kicker) fires and the ball comes out into the shooter alley ...
Patrickr - what do You see on the Score-Drums lights when the fault is happening ? Do You have some ( SteveFury 's ) 24Volt-Test-Lights - (each) Test-Light has two cheap 12Volt car light-bulbs one mounted behind the other. Greetings Rolf
0Target-Alpha-Work-37 (resized).jpgHave you ever pushed a slinky down some steps and try to get to the bottom before it does? That’s what these relays are like. Lol. Right now I have it to the point again where the everything resets but the flipper and and stuff don’t work. I can’t remember which one of the relays that’s on.
Quoted from Patrickr:Nothing on the play field works other than lights and reset targets. No flipper no pop bumpers etc. would it be in the spot on the schematic 13-I where AX and Q have to be closed?
See post 41.
Pops do go thru B relay.
Quoted from Patrickr:I now have it where everything resets but the ball does not kick out.
Good going on getting things to reset; what did you do? Check this circuit, esp. the DX, for the kick out problem.
Capture (resized).PNG 1 month later
Had to take a break on this one. Got started back today. I have back to some of the same points as before. If I hit the start but and manually engage the ax relay everything resets but the score motor continues to run until I push the bottom relay in and then it will play a game. But doesn’t end on ball 5.
Update! I now have the ax engaging when I hit the start button. However it does not kick it self out so I believe that is the axr relay that does that. But not sure it gets confusing. I can push it in with my hand and play a game. Everything cycles like it should until last ball. It goes threw all the score and kicks another ball out. What part of Rolfs “ #39 post “explanation should I start at to figure this out? Thanks Patrick
Hi Patrickr
great - You work again on the Target Alpha. http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index.htm is a great site - lots of good information --- here http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#axrelayvideo is an video about adjusting these AX / AXR, BX /BXR etc. relays. Later in the video Clay shows in detail the adjusting - but the beginning of the video is also interesting. Clay talks about the transition from (example Far Out) huge Control-Bank to the later Gottlieb pins not having a Control-Bank - having these AX etc. relays. Look from the start of the video - then at 1:35 to 1:46 see the AX-Relay actuate - shortly after the AXR actuates. I guess in post-48 "I can push it in with my hand and play a game" means: At the end of the start-up You manually actuate the AXR.
You then write about "not ending a game properly". Of the same type as AX / AXR You have in Your pin the BX / BXR Interlock-Relay. The BX / BXR relay usually is mounted near the AX / AXR relay --- play some balls - before playing the last ball: Take the ball out, lift the playfield and secure it --- manually make a couple of points - then park Your finger in the Outhole (You simulate "Last ball drains, enters the Outhole) - AND watch the BX / BXR relay - does it actuate - it should actuate after bonus-points have been given, O-Ball-Return-Relay pulls-in.
See the JPG in post-39, on the left, rather down - encircled green the coil on BX-Relay - then to the right in the JPG the wire-of-color-OR-BLK to "Switch on O-Ball-Return-Relay" - then wire-of-color-OR-WH to the Player--Unit. Look on the O-Relay in Your pin for this switch - wires soldered-on ? switch properly gapped ? contact-points clean ? (((Of course wire can be broken-off at Coil on BX-Relay, wire can be broken-off at Player-Unit, Jones-Plug in the connection may be faulty (((BX-Relay (and O-Ball-Return-Relay ?) is/are down in the Cabinet, Player-Unit is up in the Backbox - there is an Jones-Plug))) ))). Greetings Rolf
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