(Topic ID: 135791)

Gottlieb EM Help Needed Target Alpha not starting a game

By meSz

7 years ago


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  • 29 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 7 years ago by woz
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#1 7 years ago

When I press the start button the game will take away the credit and I hear the Player CAM being activated but the game will not start. Checked all the fuses and they're good! It's not in TILT. I checked to make sure no switches were closed that shouldn't be. The machine was working until I installed a new rubber and flipper rebuild kits.

#2 7 years ago

anyone

#3 7 years ago

If you manually set the score reels to zero will it start? If you manually put them to zero and manually actuate the Start Relay will it start? Is the Game Over Relay latched closed?

#4 7 years ago
Quoted from meSz:

When I press the start button the game will take away the credit and I hear the Player CAM being activated but the game will not start. Checked all the fuses and they're good! It's not in TILT. I checked to make sure no switches were closed that shouldn't be. The machine was working until I installed a new rubber and flipper rebuild kits.

more information...reels resetting? game over still lite?

#5 7 years ago

Thanks for the posts! The score reel is not resetting (Players 2-4 already at 0)! I reset manually and tried to start a game still to no avail (pushed start button and manually activated the Start Relay). The GAME OVER is not lit!

#6 7 years ago

bump

#7 7 years ago

deleted - should have read OP

#8 7 years ago

Earlier you said the game takes away a credit. I'm wondering if it's not set for free play and so doing that is causing it to not start a game. Can you manually put more than 1 credit onto the game and try it

Also do you have the schematic?

I can look at mine tomorrow.

EDITED: I saw you said it was working earlier, so disregard my free play question.

If all you did was rebuild the flippers and put on new runners it's got to be something obvious. When you put the playfield back in are you SURE you plugged in the jones plugs correctly? Not off by a pin or something?

#9 7 years ago

Check that the cable loom that goes from playfield to bottom board hasn't bumped some of the relays on the lower panel. I had that problem on my Jumping Jack after doing some playfield work

#10 7 years ago
Quoted from goldenboy232:

If all you did was rebuild the flippers and put on new runners it's got to be something obvious.

Exactlt, nothing major was done to the machine!

Quoted from goldenboy232:

Also do you have the schematic?

Yes

Quoted from goldenboy232:

you SURE you plugged in the jones plugs correctly? Not off by a pin or something?

Yes and no, plugs are seated correctly.

Quoted from woz:

Check that the cable loom that goes from playfield to bottom board hasn't bumped some of the relays on the lower panel.

Everything appears to be good!

This is one of those things where I am thinking it has to be easy fix. I did not mention that once I swapped out the rubbers and flipper kits the game worked. Just so happen when I went down a few days ago to play it, it is now giving me this issue!

#11 7 years ago

Do you have the manual? I think it has a startup sequence spelled out. Would also be helpful to post the relevant portion of then schematic. It sounds like you are neither getting pulses to the score reels nor a path through the zero switches , so you have a pretty clear path to check iirc.

#12 7 years ago

Ok, so on that game the "S" relay starts the motor running as the first step in the start-up sequence. Above you said you hear the "Player Cam" activating. Are you referring to the Player Unit in the head? Or the score motor in the bottom of the game?

If the score motor is not turning, based on what I'm reading in the Operating Instructions (Start-Up Sequence), then pushing the replay button actuates "S" relay, which locks-in through its own switch and a motor 2B switch (which then starts the score motor turning).

So if that's not happening, check the S relay switches to make sure they're gapped and clean and making contact (maybe you knocked some debris in there or a wire broke loose when a Jones Plug dragged across it or something). Also check the Motor 2B switches for the same things.

If you're not getting past that stage in the start-up sequence, I would think it has to be either S or 2B, or else something like we were talking about earlier: An anti-cheat switch that looks closed but really isn't making contact (like the one under the playfield perhaps that got bumped when you removed the playfield), a fuse, a mis-placed Jones plug, etc.

If you're saying the Score Motor IS turning but nothing else is happening, then let's look at the next step in the start-up sequence.

Report back.

#13 7 years ago

Is the Tilt Hold Relay (R) energizing and staying energized?

#14 7 years ago
Quoted from DirtFlipper:

Is the Tilt Hold Relay (R) energizing and staying energized?

Yes

Quoted from goldenboy232:

Above you said you hear the "Player Cam" activating. Are you referring to the Player Unit in the head? Or the score motor in the bottom of the game?

Apologies as it's the score motor in the bottom of the game!

Quoted from goldenboy232:

If you're saying the Score Motor IS turning but nothing else is happening, then let's look at the next step in the start-up sequence.

This is the situation!

#15 7 years ago

The next step in the sequence is that the AX relay actuates and the coin unit subtracts through switches on AX and S relays, and switches on motor 4C and motor 1A. Q relay also de-energizes at this point.

Can you observe a few things:

1. Look at the AX relay in the bottom board and see if it's moving to actuate when you press start? Can you see the coin unit (when facing the game like you're playing it, it's on the bottom-board on the right side just beyond the chime unit) move once?

2. Power off and on again and try it a second time (just because you can't look at two things at once) and this time see if the Q relay (which is the "Game Over" relay) on the bottom board is de-activating. Can you see it move when it does that?

3. Going back to AX, if AX is not moving, see if it's latched or unlatched and carefully unclip it from it's bracket and put it into the other position (whichever position it's not in) with your finger by either latching or unlatching the little plastic plate with your finger. But be gentle with it. Then try starting the game again.

#16 7 years ago

Is the Score Motor just running continuously after pressing the replay button then?

#17 7 years ago
Quoted from DirtFlipper:

Is the Score Motor just running continuously after pressing the replay button then?

No, just moves once and stops.

goldenboy, I will try your steps when I get back home!

Thanks for the post, appreciate it!

#18 7 years ago
Quoted from meSz:

No, just moves once and stops.

Ok, then that would be consistent with AX not activating to continue the startup sequence, or else all the score reels are already reset to zero and so it considers the startup already complete.

If there are points on the score reels, then do they reset back to zero? (even on player 1). Can manually step some score reels to put them off of zero to try. If the score reels are not at zero and don't reset, then that's also consistent with AX not activating.

Another thing to check is that DX is latched. If it's not in the latched position, the path to AX will be open.

#19 7 years ago
Quoted from goldenboy232:

3. Going back to AX, if AX is not moving, see if it's latched or unlatched and carefully unclip it from it's bracket and put it into the other position (whichever position it's not in) with your finger by either latching or unlatching the little plastic plate with your finger. But be gentle with it. Then try starting the game again.

Quoted from goldenboy232:

2. Power off and on again and try it a second time (just because you can't look at two things at once) and this time see if the Q relay (which is the "Game Over" relay) on the bottom board is de-activating. Can you see it move when it does that?

It's latched and when I unlatch it the game will start but the I need to unlatch it again to get another game going!

It appears to be staying active all the time and it doesn't appear to move at all!

Quoted from goldenboy232:

1. Look at the AX relay in the bottom board and see if it's moving to actuate when you press start? Can you see the coin unit (when facing the game like you're playing it, it's on the bottom-board on the right side just beyond the chime unit) move once?

Thanks again for the assistance!!! I by know means am an EM guy so appreciate the simplex instructions!

#20 7 years ago

Ok, as Dirtflipper said, check the DX relay to see if it's latching. DX unlatches when the startup sequence ends (it's part of how AX deactivates), so if it's not latched, AX won't stay active. There's also a switch on the R ("Hold") Relay that could cause this, I believe.

If DX IS latched, it's possible that:

1. A switch on AX itself isn't closing properly. (These relays are a huge pain to adjust because they have VERY short travel distances on the switches, but you can carefully take it out of its bracket, light it from behind and see if you see a switch that's supposed to be closed when AX latches that isn't making well (or you can gently clean it with a file to see if that helps).

2. A normally open switch on the S relay isn't making (closing) properly

Dirtflipper, chime in here. What else are we missing? Are the motor switches at 1B and 4C in play here? Doing my best to read the schematic at 19C where AX is shown.

#21 7 years ago

Still curious to know if the score reels reset, and whether DX is latched.

#22 7 years ago
Quoted from DirtFlipper:

Still curious to know if the score reels reset, and whether DX is latched.

The score reels will not reset and DX is not latched. If I turn the game off and latch DX, turn it back on then it will start a game.

#23 7 years ago
Quoted from meSz:

If I turn the game off and latch DX, turn it back on then it will start a game.

This is great then. DX would normally be latched after some points are scored, and stay in the latched position until the start of the next game. So if the game got powered off while DX was unlatched, it won't be able to start a game again.

So now the question is, after you start a game and play it (scoring some points), is it able to start OK again?

#24 7 years ago
Quoted from DirtFlipper:

So now the question is, after you start a game and play it (scoring some points), is it able to start OK again?

No, not unless I manually latch it!

#25 7 years ago
Quoted from meSz:

No, not unless I manually latch it!

OK, then that means DX isn't latching when points are scored. So to confirm:
- you manually latch it
- start a game
- DX unlatches
- score some points
- DX should latch, but stays unlatched instead

That would then suggest the path to DX is open somewhere, or the latch coil connection/coil isn't working. I'll have to check the schematic tonight, but in the meantime, could check for any loose wires on DX (there's at least one switch on DX that needs to be closed to latch it). There will also be a switch on N and M (points relays) that cause it to energize and latch, but the switch on DX would be common, so if no points value causes it to latch, then I'd suspect the switch on DX (but need to see what else is on that path on the schematic).

#26 7 years ago

Just to save DF some work here's the schematic of the DX relay section:

Capture.jpg

#27 7 years ago
Quoted from woz:

Just to save DF some work here's the schematic of the DX relay section:

Capture.jpg

Cool, thanks. So that normally closed switch on DX itself would be my first suspect. Then the normally closed switch on R (which will be closed when the game is first powered on, but before the R relay is energized), and the one on H. Or the coil itself.

Once R and H are both energized, then the only path to energize DX is through N and M, and that normally closed switch on DX. So a quick test would be to reach the point of R and H being on (and those switches open), and then activate N and M. If DX still doesn't energize and latch, then it's either that DX switch or the coil. (Remote chance of a Jones plug too I suppose, but we'll ignore that for now.)

But a short list of things to check at least.

#28 7 years ago

It was the DX (Brown/Black) switch that WOZ highlighted. Looking at it, it looked closed. I took my leaf adj tool and closed it slightly more and it now will start a game.

Thanks for all the info and assistance on this! I have a few other things to tweak on this but this issue is solved!!!!

#29 7 years ago

I take no credit, I just highlighted the DX Relay...DF and goldenboy232 did the grunt work

Glad you got it fixed.

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