Target Alpha bonus counts too much

0
No one calls this topic a favorite.

By electricsquirrel

2 months ago


Stats

  • Started 2 months ago
  • 20 posts
  • 4 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 months ago by rolf_martin_062

Find posts in this topic

Find posts in this topic match certain words or written by a specific Pinsider. Or both!


Topic Gallery

Uploaded by rolf_martin_062
Uploaded by rolf_martin_062
Uploaded by rolf_martin_062
Uploaded by rolf_martin_062
Uploaded by woz
Uploaded by woz
Uploaded by woz
Uploaded by rolf_martin_062
Uploaded by electricsquirrel
Uploaded by rolf_martin_062


Games linked to topic

Link this topic to the game(s) discussed in it.



#1 68 days ago

Yet another issue with my Target Alpha.

Set to three ball play. The drop targets add 1000 bonus points on balls one and two per drop target. On ball three, the bonus awarded is supposed to be 2000 points per drop target (double bonus lit).

On my machine, when awarding bonus on the first two balls, no problem. 1000 points per drop.
On ball three, it adds 4000 points (more or less) per drop (double bonus lit).

The score reels are operating properly.
It seems that this is controlled by two contacts wired in parallel on the score motor that trigger the add bonus unit (2D and 3B).
These contacts are only active during the double bonus feature.
All contacts seem to be functioning as they should.
Is this a timing issue? Am I missing something?

Thanks for any help or input!

Eric

#2 66 days ago

Hi Eric
I do have an copy of the schematics - LOW resolution - very hard to read.
I show it - I do not believe that the Score-Motor-Switches SCM-2D, SCM-3B do help on (faulty) scoring --- I believe (upwards in the schematics): They have to do with "resetting at start-up".

When the pin reaches "LAST ball on first player": The K-Relay pulls-in and stays pulling and informs us "Bonus counted down will reward double", At the same time the BX-Last-Ball-Relay pulls-in. So I want to see on the "activating the 1000-point-relay (is activated when the bonus is counted down (?) ): A switch on K-Relay*** or maybe a switch on BX-Relay MAKING the 1000-point-relay actuate TWO times when Bonus is transported to Score-Drums.

BUT IN MY lousy copy: I do not see such switch(es) - question: Do YOU have a good schematics and FIND such switch(es) ?

The List of "Relays used" tells us : K-Relay*** has ONE Switch mounted on the relay - an Normally-Closed-Switch - type "B" ? (((I would like to have an Normally-Open-Switch, type 'A' - anyway))) --- WHERE in the schematics is this switch ? Greetings Rolf

0Target-Alpha-Work-05 (resized).jpg

#3 66 days ago

Hi Eric
in my Surf Champ the "K-Bonus-Score-Relay" is pulling, the Score-Motor runs and pulses SCM-1A, 8B is "Triple-Bonus-Switch", 10B is "Double Bonus Relay" --- I would like to see SUCH things in the Target Alpha schematics. Greetings Rolf

0Surf-Champ-Work-13 (resized).jpg

#4 66 days ago

Rolf,
as you can see, when the K contact is open (double bonus), there is no other signal except from motor 2D and 3B.
Unfortunately there are other problems right now.
With this machine, it seems there is just one problem after another.

K is at 19-H by the way. It took me a while to find it too!

Thanks for your help!

Eric

K (resized).jpg

#5 66 days ago
Quoted from electricsquirrel:

K is at 19-H by the way. It took me a while to find it too!

There should be a key (table) on the schematic showing the location of all the relays. So, look up "K" on it and it should reflect 19-H.

#6 66 days ago

Hi SirScott
Yes - the Gottlieb schematics have a list --- BUT the locations / positions are the locations of the COIL of the relays - i was asking for position of a SWITCH mounted on a relay (((One reason I like to work on rather new Williams pins: The excellent manual to look-up all relays and all their switches))).

Hi Eric
I was wrong in post-2 --- You are right "post-1": SCM-2D, SCM-3B HAVE to do with getting single bonus or getting double bonus.

Thanks for Your snippet of schematics (post-4) - I use it --- and I ask You for MORE: Please show the timing chart of YOUR schematics --- please show "my JPG here, encircled red area" - so I can look-up instead of "guessing".

I happen to "NEVER have seen an Target Alpha" - I studied ipdb and the schematics, my "findings":
Surf Champ is a nice pin - has a CONVENTIONAL Bonus Ladder / Bonus Unit: http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=2459&picno=34778 (((having 4 or 8 or 12 bonus on the ladder - when loosing the ball: Bonus-Ladder is counted down / stepping down starting in position 4 or 8 or 12))).
The TA-Bonus-Unit (Target Alpha Bonus-Unit) is DIFFERENT. You hit a drop-target and it plunges - gives some points and when beeing dropped completely: A Switch for the Information-Light is closed, stay closed --- and a second Switch is closed, stay closed --- NO STEPPING ON A UNIT.
You loose a ball (single bonus is active): JPG, "rosa-pink": First-Ball-Relay has moved, "encircled green" makes the TA-Bonus-Unit STEP through ALL positions - THEN "encircled light-blue" finally makes the Ball kicked over to the shooter alley - on its way the ball makes "encircled dark-blue" the Player-Unit step.
Conclusion: ALWAYS the TA-Bonus-Unit is stepped through ALL positions - the pulling "Bonus-Score-Control-Relay---relay-G" makes the Score-Motor run and run and run - several turns.

You can watch and listen (single bonus is active) - The Motor turns rhythmically - the TA-Bonus is stepped one after one after one after one - rhythmically --- IF (if) on a position the "Information-Light" is lit: NOW for THIS position You get 1000 points on the Score-Drum by activating the L-1000-Point-Relay. IF (if) on a position the light is NOT lit: No points given. See my JPG "marked red" with THREE drop-targets dropped.

I believe, I guess and so I ask for "Snippet of schematics (encircled red): ONE of the Score-Motor-Switches in the line makes the L-1000-Point-Relay pull-in ONCE. As in "single bonus" the stepping*** through the TA-Bonus-Unit is FAST: The SECOND Score-Motor-Switch there cannot make the L-1000-Point-Relay pull-in the SECOND time - no, no, no - NOT enough time for a second 1000 points. The stepping is shown "encircled orange".

WHEN there is "DOUBLE Bonus active": The pulling K-Relay OPENS a switch and this makes the stepping*** the TA-Bonus-Unit stutter / stop and go --- NOW there is TIME ENOUGH for the SECOND activating L-1000-Point-Relay (in my red wiring).

"TimMe" writes about masking pulses here: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/surf-champ-1k-bonus-vs-1k-1k-bonus#post-3566563 , I would like to see a good JPG of Score-Motor-Timing-Chart --- as well a snippet of "my encircled red" area, greetings Rolf

0pinside-snippet-Work-A2 (resized).jpg

#7 65 days ago
Quoted from SirScott:

There should be a key (table) on the schematic showing the location of all the relays. So, look up "K" on it and it should reflect 19-H.

The "Relays" table shows location of the relay coil on the schematic and the switch types; unfortunately not the switch locations.

Here's the Target Alpha timing chart and snipppet requested:

Capture (resized).JPG

Capture (resized).JPG

#8 65 days ago

Does the K "Double Bonus Relay" operate when the game gets to ball 3? It's in the 6VAC section of the circuit.

Capture (resized).JPG

#9 65 days ago
Quoted from woz:

Does the K "Double Bonus Relay" operate when the game gets to ball 3? It's in the 6VAC section of the circuit.

Yes. K seems to be operating properly.

#10 65 days ago

Hi Eric and woz
I live in Switzerland (south of Germany) - here it is past midnight, time to go to sleep. woz: THANKS for the Sequence Chart and the snippet of schematics. Studying and then writing will take some time - so: tomorrow --- greetings Rolf
P.S.: I probably will write in many words something like "crazy solution by Gottlieb" - clean and adjust Score-Motor-Switches" - but want to think it over - and another attempt for "to fully understand" - and again and again and again.

#11 65 days ago

I like the way you think Rolf! I am like you, I prefer to analyze and understand the circuit, then try and pinpoint the offending switch rather than suggest the "clean and adjust every switch" approach.

#12 65 days ago

Hi Eric, woz +
I am close to desperate - THIS post I ONLY write about a "non-perfect solution / work-around".
When You say "I waive - I go without DOUBLE Bonus" - I accept: EVERY ball gets SINGLE Bonus: You can play and You can use the pin in a tournament - as EVERY player has the same situation - ALWAYS single Bonus.

woz shows (post-8, JPG) one of the plug / socket on the 3-ball / 5-ball Adj.-Plug. The PLUG has soldered-on wire-color-white-brown. The 5-ball-socket has wire-color-white and the 3-ball-socket has wire-color-green (maybe brown). Look here https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/williams-aztec-too-many-extra-balls#post-3600410 ONLY look at the JPG: My "D" and my "E" are handy, practical Plugs - You can buy in K-Mart and such stores - Automotive Departement, Car-Electrics - to cramp the housing so to mount the wire in the plug by using a plier.
CUT wire-color-white-brown about 2 to 3 inches away of the original plug - use a cigarette lighter - burn away some insulation and mount "into the wire-color-white-brown" such a K-Mart-plug --- but DO NOT plug-in. With this alteration You will NEVER get Double-Bonus.
(((And when You feel like "want to search for problem on Double-Bonus feature": You plug-in that K-Mart plug and You can start troubleshooting))).
As I am "close to" but not completely desperated: Post to come on "Troubleshooting", greetings Rolf

#13 65 days ago

Thanks Rolf. That is an option.

Last night I was working on it and it started to work perfectly. 1000 points per drop....2000 points per drop on double bonus.
I played several games with the machine functioning as it should, and then it started again.

shit.

E

#14 65 days ago

Hi Eric
(please read first through the whole post)
the Double-Bonus problem has to do with "delicate timing". A wild theory is: The "Self-Hold-Switch on the L-1000-Point-Relay" does not work so the L-Relay let go a bit earlyer than it is supposed to. I hope the "Self-Hold-Switch on the M-10-Point-Relay" is good. You have all over the playfield on the sides some leaf switches behind rubbers. TRY: Manually make some 10 points --- sometimes a "bulls-eye, full impact hit" --- sometimes just a "grace shot (You close the leaf switch just for a VERY short period of time)" - You should ALWAYS get the 10 points onto the Score-Drum. Now, see here http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=2500&picno=23190 --- the inlanes are worth 1000 points - question: Do You ALWAYS get 1000 points - no matter "full impact depressing" or "grace-shot like (manually closing the switch for a VERY short period of time)" ?
IF (if, if) You do NOT get the 1000 points on "grace shot": We must look at the "Self-Hold-Switch on L-1000-Poin-Relay".

OK, the "test / theory written above" most likely is not true as You ALWAYS get the 1000 points (?) by manually pressing the Inlane-Switches - but the situation is "close to desperate" - we look all-over ...

I made two JPGs using "woz timing chart / snippets of schematics". The first is "Single Bonus" - nice, synchronous stepping / pulsing the L-1000-Point-Relay and the TA-Bonus-Unit.

In the second JPG the stepping "encircled orange" of the TA-Bonus-Unit is much slower because SCM-2D and SCM-3B are involved - they let shots of electricity fired by SCM-4A pass to the Coil on TA-Bonus-Unit --- AND WHEN SCM-2D / SCM-3B ARE NOT ACTIVE: The shots fired by SCM-4A CANNOT pass (they are "masking Switches").

Maybe, maybe in Your pin the SCM-2D is faulty NOT closing so the TA-Unit gets the two times two-thousand points a target.
Maybe, maybe in Your pin the SCM-3B is faulty NOT closing so the TA-Unit gets the two times two-thousand points a target.
Because towards the L-1000-Point-Relay: The firing works through SCM-4A pulsing.

So I would like to test with ONLY ONE target dropped: The "encircled green '0' , Zero". EVERY drop target when dropped has a switch closed - wire-color-red-white and wire of "other color".
That "encircled green '0' , Zero" switch has wire-color-red-white and wire-color-yellow. The switch next to it in the schematics has wire-color-red-white and wire-color-black-white.
Please look-up in Your pin - so You can say "10 drop targets on the top of the playfield, left to right are the switches in the schematics --- well the number, the number, the number ? --- also the 5 drops on the lower playfield are ... ?

I still have problems of understanding --- see my "dark-blue question mark" - I do not understand how a fully running pin wired as shown in the schematics can work --- If I would have to wire the Target Alpha: I would have put in "masking switches SCM-1B and SCM-4C to hinder the "shot of electricity fired by SCM-4A (my encircled dark-blue stuff).

May want to have another look at SCM-2D and SCM-3B - do they TRUELY close ? Wires soldered-on ? Greetings Rolf

0pinside-timing-chart-single-Bonus (resized).jpg

0pinside-timing-chart-double-bonus (resized).jpg

#15 65 days ago

#16 64 days ago

Hi Eric
sometimes I do NOT understand the schematics. I then say "I see in the schematics (lets say) 3 switches involved in the "fault / faulty area". When I clean the switches and make sure they truely close when they should (and open when they should) --- AND with Jumper-Wires I make connection GARANTEED: The pin MUST function.

See the JPG, on top is the wiring in the schematics - drawn "abstract, neat looking" but maybe the "real wiring in the pin" is made different. Anyway - I know "pin runs when the "Switch on K-Relay is part of the business" - means: "Switch on K-Relay HAS CONNECTION". So I would clean again the SCM-2D and SCM-3B - look if they close and open (have the pin toggled off and turn the motor manually and look at the switch-blades).
THEN I use Jumper-Wires and connect "good switch on K-Relay" connect to "Score-Motor-Switches". This is shown in the middle part of the JPG.

Another way to get me information: I assume "one of the two Score-Motor-Switches does not work". When I disable ONE Score-Motor-Switch by unsoldering a wire (or cut the wire): 50% chance is: I disabled the "faulty switch" means: The pin behaves "exactly as before". The other 50% chance is: I disabled the "good, working switch" means: The pin behaves "OTHER than before". With this test I learn WHICH of the Two switches is the faulty one.
This "disabling a switch for a test" is nice - BUT we must avoid "by cutting a wire - we disable both Switches".
I DO NOT say "The wiring in Your pin is "as shown in the bottom part of the JPG" - BUT You must check, follow the wires so You know: Which wire to cut.

CALL FOR HELP - I am frustrated "not understanding the 'pulsing of L-1000-Point-Relay' ", see bottom of second JPG in post-14 - Call for help: If YOU read this and have a pin and schematics
El Dorado
Gold Strike
Lucky Strike
Canada Dry
Solar City
- please show a snippet of schematics on behalf of "stepping the L-1000-Point-Relay", stepping the "Add Bonus Unit Coil" - maybe, maybe there is a fault in the drawing "schematics Target Alpha" (?), Greetings Rolf

0Target-Alpha-Work-07 (resized).jpg

#17 64 days ago

Wow Rolf......you have gone to a lot of trouble for this, and I appreciate it!
Give me some time. I will try these things in the coming week.
Will let you know my progress.

Thanks very much, Eric

#18 60 days ago

Ok, so I've been working on my machine the last few days, and the bonus is now working as it should.

What I found:

The bonus stepper was not properly adjusted, and the spring contacts were worn flat and
bridging some of the brass contact rivets.

Motor contacts were operating properly, but not gapped properly.

So, I guess it was a timing issue and/or the improperly adjusted stepper.

Now its on to my next problem. Sometime the machine will not advance to ball two, after ball one plays.

That's another day.

Thank you everyone, especially Rolf, for all of your help!

E

#19 60 days ago

Hi Eric
congratulations - You found an could fix the problem.
On a Gottlieb pin - after player-1, ball-1: The pin gives a new ball BUT NOT stepping to next ball (single-player-game) / NOT stepping to next player (multi-player-game). We then are suspicious about the "First-Ball-Relay" - maybe the Relay does not actuate - maybe the Relay does actuate but immediately after: Actuates back (mechanical problem ? or electrical problem ?) - maybe the Relay does actuate "nice" BUT a switch on the Relay is bad.

The Target Alpha is a modern Gottlieb - there is mounted "DX-First-Ball-Relay, Interlock-Type-Relay". (((You may have seen in Your pin the AX- and the BX-Relays (also Interlock-Type-Relays)))

You write "SOMETIMES" - this usually means: A Wire has broken-off somewhere, wires are stiff, they stay in place --- SOMETIMES. Also: A Switch can be dirty - making contact --- SOMETIMES. Also: A Switch can be maladjusted - making contact --- SOMETIMES.

Look into Your pin, start a game --- see how the AX-Reset-Control-Relay actuates - pin resets - then AX-Relay actuates "back". Then Ball-1 is given for player-1. Look at the DX-Relay, look, look - with finger / hand You make 10 points or 100 points on the playfield - question: DOES the DX-Relay actuate ? It SHOULD actuate AND STAY in the new position. You write SOMETIMES - so do this several times see the relay actuate ? When it DOES actuate: REMEMBER the position the DX-Relay is in. Play many games - as the fault happens - NOW look at the DX-Relay - question: Is it in "other" position ?

The JPG shows: H, R, N and M Relays are involved to MAKE the DX-Relay actuate, greetings Rolf

#20 60 days ago

Hi - really strange behaviour on "posting JPG's", Rolf

0Target-Alpha-Work-08 (resized).jpg

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
$ 66.95
Cabinet - Shooter Rods
Super Skill Shot Shop
$ 239.99
$ 60.00
Cabinet Parts
Pinball Plating and More
From: $ 12.00
Electronics
Third Coast Pinball
$ 78.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
ModFather Pinball Mods
$ 30.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Just 3D Mods
$ 48.00
Playfield - Other
ModFather Pinball Mods
$ 74.95
Cabinet - Shooter Rods
Super Skill Shot Shop
From: $ 32.00
Apparel - Unisex
Double Danger Pinball
$ 47.99
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Lermods
From: $ 15.00
Electronics
nvram.weebly.com
From: $ 42.00
Cabinet - Shooter Rods
ModFather Pinball Mods
From: $ 30.00
Apparel - Men
Third Coast Pinball
$ 66.95
Cabinet - Shooter Rods
Super Skill Shot Shop
$ 29.99
Lighting - Interactive
Lee's Parts
$ 69.00
Playfield - Other
PinballToys
$ 75.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
PinballToys
$ 889.00
Pinball Machine
Mircoplayfields
$ 5.00
From: $ 210.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
CzTV Mods

Reply

Wanna join the discussion? Sign up for a Pinside account, or log in if you already have an account.