(Topic ID: 284907)

Target Alpha 5 Bank Complete effect on FS / Alt relays

By srcdube

3 years ago



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  • 9 posts
  • 4 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by TimMe
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Gottlieb 1976 parts catalog AS relay parts (resized).jpg
Solar City Target Alpha Alternating Relay (resized).jpg
FS_Alt Relay (resized).jpg

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#1 3 years ago

I'm documenting all of the relays and switches in my TA, and really can't figure this one out. Seems a bit redundant. FS turns on every time there is a score of 100 points... advances the match number, and then toggles the alternating relay that lights up which rollovers will score the 5000 points. I don't understand what the 5 Position Sequence Completed Alternating Switch is doing. When all of the 5 Bank is knocked down, it switches from taking the signal when FS turns on, to when it turns off. So what? It has the same effect of triggering the Alternating Relay. The only thing I can see, is that it gives one extra flip of the Alternating Relay / Rollover lights when you first complete the 5 bank dropdowns... then just continues toggling for each 100 point score. Why the extra circuitry just to do that. Or am I missing something else here? In one of the other variants does it do something else, and they just left the circuitry the same in TA?

FS_Alt Relay (resized).jpgFS_Alt Relay (resized).jpg
#6 3 years ago
Quoted from Darcy:

If this helps.
On my Solar City, when all of the drop targets are hit and dropped, the 5000 point, alternating roll overs, stop alternating.

I kinda thought that too, but after reviewing further, regardless of which path it takes, FS keeps toggling on and off, so it should still be toggling the Alternating Relay through the lower path when you complete the 5 bank drop targets... you may want to check if the FS and 5 Bank Drop target alternating switches are completely closing through the lower path.

#7 3 years ago
Quoted from MarkG:

Solar City and Target Alpha have nearly identical circuits (Solar City is on top):
[quoted image]
The only difference I see is the default position of the FS relay Make/Break switch in the Alternating relay circuit. Even the wire colors are the same.
The FS relay can have up to two cams to activate switch stacks mounted above them. The cams are available in different profiles to activate switches in different patterns:
[quoted image]
I think the "FS (1: 1)" notation in the schematic indicates that the Normally Open switch on the FS relay in the 00-90 unit circuit alternates every time the FS relay fires, probably with a C-8752 cam. The other FS relay switch does not have that notation. It may mean that that switch is following one of the other cams that alternates with some other pattern.
If that's the case, the Alternating relay might change how often it's on or off depending on the state of the 5 target bank.

I wonder if either your FS relay or 5 Pos. Sequence Completed Make/Break switch isn't closing on one side.
/Mark

Thanks for the screenshot. I'll need to take a closer look at the FS relay. I haven't played much in the head since everything seems to be counting. Alternating Relay was sketchy for a bit, so I only briefly looked at the FS relay to clean the contacts. Didn't notice the cam's in it. Kewl.

Keep on learnin!

#8 3 years ago
Quoted from TimMe:

From what I can tell, the only reason is to make it more difficult to keep track of the position of the FS relay. On this game, the FS relay always moves to the next even match number position at the start of each ball in play, so that each player starts their ball with the same lanes lit for 5000. Because of this, if a player knows the match sequence on a Gottlieb EM (it was always the same), and they make a note of the lit match number just before they start a new game, and they keep track of the number of lane light toggles, they can determine which match number will appear at the end of the game.

That guess may sound far-fetched, but Gottlieb (and the other companies) always had something in their circuitry to obscure the 0-9 stepper so that the match number was difficult to track. That's because, back in the day when these machines were on location, it was fairly common for players to tilt out their last ball on any game where the match number was known in advance. As soon as their score showed the correct match number, they would tilt so they could win a free game by matching. This usually occurred on machines where the 0-9 stepper was stuck, and the machine always showed the same number for match every game.
The manufacturers were well aware that no operator would want a game that let a clever player figure out things like the next match number.
- TimMe

I like that... but man... lotsa keeping track of stuff while your trying to play, and then trying to hit a 10 point target a few times, without hitting another 100 point target to line up your score with the match number...just to save a quarter . Maybe there was cannabis involved.

Sidebar: I was having problems with my coin unit triggering correctly a little while ago, and found the match lights were on during the game (coin unit stays in 0 position). So for interests sake, when I was trying to finger out this FS thing, during a one player game I reached in through the door, and triggered the coin unit relay to go back to the zero position. I wanted to see if the match numbers were progressing through each of the 100 point scores, for a 500 point rollover, and of course they were. Try it!

Also, I figured the alternating rollover lights should also toggle back and forth throughout a 500 point score, but a switch on the motor (3D) turns off those lights during the scoring cycle, and they come back on after... and because it's and odd number of toggles, the opposite lights are on. When time permits, I'm going to short out the 3D switch to keep the lights on during scoring to see if they toggle back and forth 5 times... expecting they should.

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