(Topic ID: 133196)

Target Alpha 10 Point Relay

By ValleyGuy

8 years ago


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  • 32 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 8 years ago by ValleyGuy
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 8 years ago

10 point relay staying energized and I can't find any 10 point units stuck? what energizes this realy other then the 10 point scoring units?

#2 8 years ago

I can check my schematic when I get home – but it will be late tonight.

#3 8 years ago

On my Solar City, (if this helps), the 10 point relay 'N' shows that there are nine 10 point contacts on the playfield, including the Kicking Rubbers switches.

2 months later
#5 8 years ago

just got back to working on this on weekend, my short seems to be at the score motor switch, when I turn a game on the motor stops and the switch on the motor is energized, it seems to be the normal state, when I manually open the switch the short is stopped?? any leads would be great, I checked all the switches and stacks and could not see any problems?

#6 8 years ago
Quoted from ValleyGuy:

my short seems to be at the score motor switch, when I turn a game on the motor stops and the switch on the motor is energized

I thought the issue was with 10 point relay staying energized? Is the score motor (on the bottom board) also running? Don't quite follow (and not sure what you mean by the switch being 'energized').

A picture of what you're seeing might be helpful too, if possible.

#7 8 years ago

When I start a game the score motor will stop
And the ten point realay (backbox) is energized(staying on) the ten pint chime Is also is energized.At this point no scoring is able to score when manualy triggering points.
Hope this helps

#8 8 years ago

Check your eos switch in the score reel. It sounds like it is sticking on.

#9 8 years ago

By "score motor" do you mean the "score reel"? (The score motor is the metal circular assembly in the bottom of the cabinet; the score reel is the part in the backbox that displays the digits for the score.)

Guessing you mean the score reel.

When the N relay activates, a switch there closes and energizes the player's 10's score reel via a separate switch on the Player Unit (there's one switch for each player). This will pull the plunger in at the score reel.

But then the end of stroke (EOS) switch on the score reel needs to open, to cut power to the N relay.

So either the signal isn't reaching the score reel to energize it, or the EOS switch on the score reel isn't opening to turn N back off. Either one will leave N stuck energized.

#10 8 years ago

I checked the EOS switch's and everything looks ok.
Here is what is happening: with the jones plug disconnected as in pic the relay N isn't pulling in, how ever when I manually push in and out the ten point and 100 score reels work at the same time? I tried it on player number 2 and 3 and 4 and they both advance at the same time? Im going to check 100 point score reel again, any other ideas?
Thanks

TARGET_ALPHA.jpgTARGET_ALPHA.jpg

#11 8 years ago

Which Jones plug is disconnected? The one that comes from the playfield? If that prevents the N relay from being stuck on, then that suggests there's a 10pt scoring feature stuck on the playfield.

But for the other issue, when you manually activate the N relay, is the M relay also activating?

#12 8 years ago

Thanks Dirt Flipper there was a 10pt feature stuck, there was one stuck behind the drop down targets that I missed when I checked before. My 10 point relay is ok now. The game still has several issues, I do not know where the ball count stepper unit is, I need to check because it always stays on the first ball?

#13 8 years ago

The ball count function is integrated into the Player Unit, which is the large stepper unit located about in the middle of the backbox.
Some simple things to check are that the 1st Ball relay (DX) is latched, and that the P relay energizes when the ball crosses over the ball trough switch. But there are around eight switches in the path to the Player Unit that need to be working in order to step it to the next player/ball, so it can be a bit complex to debug sometimes.

#14 8 years ago

Here is the current issue: turn on the power, hit the credit button, game goes into game over and tilt (both lights are on) and nothing else happens until I manually energize the AX relay, then the score motor wont stop until I manually push the player unit coil then the game starts up?

#15 8 years ago

Just turning the game on should light Game Over and Tilt, without pressing the replay button on the coin door.

Then when the replay button is pressed (and there are credits), the Start relay should energize and start the score motor running.

The 1st Ball relay (DX) should latch, and this should complete a path to energize and latch the AX relay (Reset Control). Note that both DX and AX are 'interlock' style relays, so only energize long enough to physically latch the armature plates, until they are reset and unlatched (vix DXR and AXR, respectively).

So sounds like the first thing to debug is getting S to energize, have it start running the score motor, and then get AX to energize and latch. Then from there, the score reels should reset, and the Player Unit needs to reset to complete the sequence.

The complete startup sequence can be found here:
http://user.xmission.com/~daina/tips/pub/tip0457.html

#16 8 years ago

I looked at the above relays and did some cleaning and seems to be starting up with the score motor continuously running (The score reels are not re setting) I checked pretty much every score reel switch, currently the ten score reel (N relay) and the 100 M relay are pulling in at the same time, when activating the N relay manually it is also pulling in the M relay?

#17 8 years ago

If you manually set all the score reels to 0 (so they don't need to be reset), then does the score motor stop running? (Just to confirm that's why the score motor is running - to reset the score reels.)

N and M shouldn't be energizing during reset though. Are they activating during reset, or are you saying that's a separate issue?

#18 8 years ago
Quoted from ValleyGuy:

when activating the N relay manually it is also pulling in the M relay?

M will energize whenever a 10's score reel is rolling over from 9 to 0, and the N relay is active. A 9th position switch and a "on add tens" switch on whichever score reel is carrying over both close, completing the path to energize M.

So I'd guess one of the 10's score reels is stuck trying to carry over from 9 to 0.

#19 8 years ago

Thanks for all of the information, I am spending lots of time trying to sort this out with your help of course, seems every time I start the game I get different issues, I am going to look at score reels again and see what happens.. where is the score reset switch on the score motor?
Thanks

#20 8 years ago
Quoted from ValleyGuy:

where is the score reset switch on the score motor

To be accurate, it's not actually in the set of score motor switches. The reset is controlled by the AX relay, and a switch closed on AX when AX latches causes the score motor to run until the score reels are all reset to 0. Then the AXR coil energizes to unlatch AX, and the score motor stops running. AXR energizes as a result of all the score reels reaching 0, but not directly; the Player Unit has to finish stepping to its reset position as well, which also requires all the score reels to have reached 0.

#21 8 years ago

Thanks for the above info, you were right, I found the 10 score reel switch out of adjustment, that issue is fixed!, I have three 100 score reels not resetting to zero, how ever the score motor stops ? I am going to have a look at the reels.

Thanks a lot!!

#22 8 years ago

Finally got all the score reels rolling over and re-setting, nice to see. Thanks
for the help. Current issue: game starts and plays and kicks the ball out, the Ist ball light flashes and stays on Ist ball. It will not advance to second ball and never gets to game over?

#23 8 years ago

All of that is controlled by the Player Unit advancing. After the ball drains and gets kicked out over to the plunger, it passes over the ball trough switch (which is under the playfield), and that switch closing should activate the P relay. The P relay energizing should cause the score motor to run, which generates pulses to advance the Player Unit the correct number of times, depending on the number of players.

So the first observation is whether the P relay is energizing when the Ball Trough switch closes.

Activating P, and getting the Player Unit to advance, both involve several switches to be closed in their respective paths. Using the schematic to check all the associated switches along those paths would then be the next thing to do.

#24 8 years ago

The P relay is energizing, I Cleaned up the player unit and it manually steps through each player and each ball ok, it does not go into game over (light) not sure if that matters doing it manually or not. When playing a game it will stay on the player and not count any balls as my above post. I am thinking I need to find why the player unit coil is not energizing, is this what you mean by your last paragraph posted?

#25 8 years ago

I forgot to mention when resetting the player unit does energize and resets to the first ball.

#26 8 years ago
Quoted from ValleyGuy:

I am thinking I need to find why the player unit coil is not energizing, is this what you mean by your last paragraph posted?

Yep.

If P is energizing, then that means it's getting the signal from the ball crossing the ball trough and closing the switch there. The score motor should run, and the Player Unit should advance from the switch at motor 1A closing. So the signal is getting lost somewhere along the logic patch of the switches that feed the "Add Player Unit" coil. This is section 15E through 15I on the schematic.

#27 8 years ago

Spent a lot of time on checking the paths above, by a lucky stand back and do a visual I noticed a switch on the score motor had fallen off the cam, putting it back on I now have a ball in play light and can get do play on four players keeping track of the balls, however the game never ends and its always on four players? I will look at again tomorrow and try and narrow down what's going on.
I would like to have this pin set to free play if you have any info it would be greatly appreciated.

#28 8 years ago
Quoted from ValleyGuy:

I would like to have this pin set to free play if you have any info it would be greatly appreciated.

On the Credit Unit switch stack, the middle switch detects whether there is a credit or not. When the Credit Unit is at 0, the post on the cam lifts that switch stack such that the bottom and middle switches open. Can either bend the middle switch so that it doesn't open, or install a small jumper wire to close it, or other similar means to keep the middle switch closed. Then it will operate on free play (and still work on coins too).

#29 8 years ago
Quoted from ValleyGuy:

however the game never ends

The path for this is around 12E-12I on the schematic.

The Last Ball relay (BX) has to have latched, and when the last ball drains and the O relay energizes, the logic first checks for a Match for each player via the wiper disc on the Coin Unit, then after the Coin Unit completes stepping down back to zero, the path to the Game Over (Q) relay completes and Q energizes and holds.

So make sure BX is energizing and latching first, then check the rest.

#30 8 years ago

free play
At zero all three switches are closed

#31 8 years ago

I Have been away for a bit and hope to get back at this soon.

1 week later
#32 8 years ago

Things are sorted out, the coin unit and player unit needed some good cleaning and adjusting. The game is playing nice.. very fun game.
Thanks for all the help!!

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