(Topic ID: 154796)

TAF Swamp Lockup Kickout not working


By doberman_TAF

3 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 38 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by zaza
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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addfam_sol2_(resized).JPG
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#1 3 years ago

Well, in the middle of a game the other day, the swamp gremlins decided they wanted to keep my game ball for themselves. the swamp lockup kickout stopped working.

Now, I’m a complete novice when it comes to game repair and I have eyesight issues, so working under the playfield can sometimes be comical, bare with me please.

Once I retrieved the ball from the swamp, I lifted up the playfield and tried to narrow down the issue.

Visual inspection:
I inspected the swamp area under the playfield for any noticeable issues. I noticed there are two solenoids in the swamp; the Swamp Release (coil-AE-30-2000) moves the ball to the Lockup Kickout (coil-AE-26-1200). Visually (which is a term I use loosely) everything looks intact, no noticeable burn marks or disconnected wires, the mechanics of the solenoids move and spring back smoothly, the plunger looks to be ceramic.

Single Switch Test:
I then ran the system single switch tests. I did not realize the swamp had so many switches; swamp lock upper, center, lower and lockup kickout. All switches tested open and when pressed would test closed. So it looks like all is fine here.

Solenoid Test
The swamp release (T4.28) solenoid tested okay, but the lockup kickout (T4.08) did nothing. I rechecked the solenoid, making sure it was secured to the playfield and rechecked the wires, retested and still nothing. The other solenoids in the machine also seemed to test fine.

Multimeter Ohm tests:
Understand, me using a multimeter (Klein mm2000), is like a monkey performing acupuncture, but it was time to break it out. I found the following post as a how-to reference: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/how-does-one-test-a-coil

I have used an mm less than a few times in my life, so I tested a few different coils to make sure I was getting proper ohms readings. I turned the mm to the ohms position and touched one lug with the black lead and touched the opposite lug with the red lead.
Readings:
Swamp Release – 39.9-40.6 (AE-30.2000)
Lookup Kickout – 10.5-10.6 (AE-26.1200)
Right Slingshot – 14.6-14.7 (AE-27.1200)
Chair Kickout – 10.6 (AE-26. 1200)

Some have pointed out that the lockup kickout solenoid coil should be a 23-800 instead of a 26-1200. Both of my manuals call for the 26-1200 and this solenoid has been in use for years and up until now has worked fine, so I do not believe this to be the current issue.

Where do I go from here?
If I need to use the mm to test anything else, please include a how-to-for-dummies (I can see some of you shaking your heads lol) I mean, machine on/off, mm switch set to, where my black and red leads go. I have never soldered anything either, and unfortunately, this may be in my future in order to correct this issue.

The TAF does have new Rottendog MPU and Driver boards, installed about a year ago.

Thank you for any help you can provide.

I have only gotten this far because of the helpfulness of the other posts that I found:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/taf-swamp-kickout-not-working
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/tech-taf-swamp-kick-out-weak
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/evil-taf-kick-out-problems
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/tech-addams-family-swamp-solenoid
and a few others.

IMG_7213.png

#2 3 years ago

Test the switches by actually loading the balls in the swamp. Sometimes the switches just needs a little adjustment.

#3 3 years ago

Hi Lee - I've tried that as well. Dropping a ball in the swamp release opens/closes the upper, center and lower switches. Dropping a ball straight down the swamp scoop into the lockup kickout closes the open switch. During solenoid testing, the swamp release coil fires to push the ball over to the lockup kickout, but the lockup kickout solenoid does not fire (makes no noise or attempt) to push the ball out of the scoop and onto the playfield.

#4 3 years ago

From your photo, it looks like one of the wires on the right lug is barely connected. Can you check or take another photo? Tug on the wires.
Also, check the mechanical movement of the plunger by hand to feel if there is any unusual resistance.
Check for blown fuses. But sounds like you'll probably need to replace a couple transistors on the power driver board.
If you are inexperienced in soldering, you should send the board out for repair.

#5 3 years ago

Hi Pincredible - I've attached closeup pics of the solenoid connections. The wires have no give when tugged upon, and have a similar look and feel as the other solenoids.

solenoid_rear.png

solenoid_front.png

#6 3 years ago

I have also attached a pic of the driver board in case it proves helpful.

db_gif.gif

#7 3 years ago

I think I've read, Everything... So all switches are good, and you got the one coil that does not fire (under solenoid test).

So..Machine off, meter in OHMs..One lead on each lug (order does not matter). What do you get? If you get 0 Ohms, you have a problem. You should be seeing some resistance.

If this isn't it, let us know; and we will go onto the next step....

#8 3 years ago

Hi Brian - I turned the mm to the ohms position and touched one lug with the black lead and touched the opposite lug with the red lead. I read a couple different solenoids to make sure I was doing it correctly.
Readings:
Swamp Release – 39.9-40.6 (AE-30.2000)
Lookup Kickout – 10.5-10.6 (AE-26.1200)
Right Slingshot – 14.6-14.7 (AE-27.1200)
Chair Kickout – 10.6 (AE-26. 1200)

Thanks!

#9 3 years ago

Do you have DC voltage at the coil lug for the non-firing coil?

#10 3 years ago

Oh, I think I have an idea. The plunger that goes inside that coil has to be far enough in for the coils magnetic field to pull it. Please check for the presence of the small rubber grommet at the base of the plunger stop. Also, make sure the plunger stop isn't bent outwards. Finally, use your ears. Put the game in coil test and see if you can hear the coil firing. Electromagnetic coils have a sound when energized. If you can carefully put it in coil test, see if you can push the plunger in slightly and see if the game will actually fire it.

I fixed this issue for a friend on Road Show and it was as simple as bending the metal plate in slightly.

Marc

#11 3 years ago

check the other coils that have the purple and yellow wires attached to them... see if they are loose or not connected.

#12 3 years ago

Hi mschonbrun - How exactly do I test the DC voltage? Machine on/off, mm setting, where do the leads go? I apologize for my lack knowlege

#13 3 years ago

Hi Surfsled - The next stop for the wires leaving the kickout solenoid seem to be going to the right flipper. The right flipper solenoid test is good. All other solenoids test out good except for the left slingshot.

One thing I had forgotten about is that the left slingshot solenoid has had issues since I got the machine a few years ago. The plunger will not push through and the coil paper surrounding the wires is mostly off and deteriorated. The wires are also a different color scheme than the swamp's kickout. Since I'm soldering challenged I haven't addressed this issue.

This one will probably need to be replaced with a new solenoid. With the mm I get nothing (0 ohms) when connected to the lugs on the slingshot.

slingshot_solenoid.png

#14 3 years ago

mschonbrun - With the machine on and in solenoid test mode on the swamp kickout, I pushed the plunger in with a pencil eraser without any affect. Also, I could not hear any noise coming from the solenoid while in test mode.

#15 3 years ago

Sounds like the transistor is bad if the coil does not fire in test mode and wires are secure to the lugs. That or a wire could be severed between the coil and transistor

#16 3 years ago
Quoted from doberman_TAF:

The wires are also a different color scheme than the swamp's kickout

The colors of wires on J130 in the picture of the PowerDriverBoard seem not original but it can be the picture.
addfam_(resized).png

#17 3 years ago
Quoted from doberman_TAF:

Hi mschonbrun - How exactly do I test the DC voltage? Machine on/off, mm setting, where do the leads go? I apologize for my lack knowlege

From the Pinwiki:

No Power to the Coil, Coil Wire not Solidly Soldered, or Coil Winding Open
Testing for power to the coil is easy.
Set the DMM to DC volts. If not an auto-ranging meter, expect less than 200VDC.
Turn the game on.
Place the black lead on a convenient game ground like the ground braid or side rail.
Place the red lead on the coil lug with the "fat" wire(s). The fat wire carries power to the coil.
The appropriate voltage should be read (75VDC for coils, 20VDC for flashers)

#18 3 years ago

Hi Leiden - I'm not sure what's supposed to go at J132-2, but I do know the knocker is disconnected on the bottom of the cabinet where the knocker hits. I've never plugged it in, but I do not see any disconnected connectors next to the driver board. The only disconnected cables are for the high power DMD, which was replaced with a colorDMD.

#19 3 years ago
Quoted from doberman_TAF:

Hi Surfsled - The next stop for the wires leaving the kickout solenoid seem to be going to the right flipper. The right flipper solenoid test is good. All other solenoids test out good except for the left slingshot.
One thing I had forgotten about is that the left slingshot solenoid has had issues since I got the machine a few years ago. The plunger will not push through and the coil paper surrounding the wires is mostly off and deteriorated. The wires are also a different color scheme than the swamp's kickout. Since I'm soldering challenged I haven't addressed this issue.
This one will probably need to be replaced with a new solenoid. With the mm I get nothing (0 ohms) when connected to the lugs on the slingshot.
slingshot_solenoid.png

You have a chicken and egg problem. Yes, the coil melted and needs to be replaced. But, why did it melt? It was likely a blown/shorted transistor that caused the coil to lock on and melt. If you don't fix the root of the issue, you'll blow the new coil as well.

Marc

#20 3 years ago

Okay, I tested the voltage on a few different coils:

Ball Eject = 86.4
Swamp Release = 86.7
Swamp Lockup Kickout = 86.8

Thank you for the how-to.

#21 3 years ago
Quoted from pintechev:

You have a chicken and egg problem. Yes, the coil melted and needs to be replaced. But, why did it melt? It was likely a blown/shorted transistor that caused the coil to lock on and melt. If you don't fix the root of the issue, you'll blow the new coil as well.
Marc

I agree, and I'm ready to do whatever is necessary to finally get things situated.

The driver board was replaced about a year ago when I was having intermittent power resets. Once replaced, the power resets went away. One thing I noticed today was that one of the big capacitors at the top of the driver board looks to be damaged. (see the driver board picture posted above). I'm not sure though.

The only other error that I have on this machine, that I am aware of is the Check Switch F3 L. Flipper E.O.S. When I run through the switch tests, and raise the flipper (to close the switch), it's the only switch I cannot get registered as closed. This has been like this since I bought the machine years ago.

#22 3 years ago
Quoted from doberman_TAF:

Hi Leiden - I'm not sure what's supposed to go at J132-2,

Hi Palatka, it is the knocker for 'seance' and 'Special', an addition for the soundeffects.

addfam_sol2_(resized).JPG

#23 3 years ago

I traced the Thing knocker the best I could. It looks to be using J108 instead of J106 for the purple-yellow wire and J128 instead of J132 for the light purple-red wire. In the pic it's hard to see the color difference. I still haven't connect the knocker in the cabinet. I don't want to do this if the plugs are in the wrong place.

2016-03-14_15-57-31.png

#24 3 years ago

If it is plugged on J128, then it explains why it is disconnected from the coil.
J128-2 is same as J127-7 and that is left slingshot, so each time the slingshot was activated, the knocker went on as well , that would have been a noisy game.

unplug J128 and put it back to J132
J108 is correct

#25 3 years ago

warning !!

You mention that left slingshot coil is burnt.
It is very well possible that because of the the left sling and thing-knocker were parallel wired, it made the Driver-transistor fail and so blew both coils, check that before re-install both solenoids

#26 3 years ago

I moved the thing-knocker to the correct position at J132. After reconnecting everything, the knocker is working again and doesn't seem to be having in adverse affects on anything else.

Thank you very much

#27 3 years ago

Great to hear that this one is solved, up to the next

#28 3 years ago

It's working!

The swamp lockup kickout has decided to start working again. I really have no idea as to why it started working again. I've played a couple of games and all seems okay. Maybe in all the poking around something reconnected. I will give it a few days and hope this is not an intermittent issue.

1. Need to replace the coil for the left slingshot and I believe this will require some soldering on my end.
Not looking forward to that

2. Need to correct the L Flipper EOS error at startup.

Thanks for all the troubleshooting help.
I could not have gotten this far without it!

#29 3 years ago
Quoted from doberman_TAF:

The swamp lockup kickout has decided to start working again. I really have no idea as to why it started working again.

Maybe the wire in connector at J130-9 needs a little punch.

#30 3 years ago

Glad to hear your on the road to recovery...

#31 3 years ago

I ordered the coil for the left slingshot today. Will I need to de-solder the wires off the old coil or can I just cut them close to the lugs? I also ordered my first soldering iron

#32 3 years ago

Both ways are possible, if wires have enough length you can cut them and make fresh solder points
But if wires are clean and not frayed, you can de-solder and re-use them.

New coil doesn't need a diode because sol#14 drive has one on-board, so re-solder the wire to lugs what fits best.

Quoted from doberman_TAF:

I also ordered my first soldering iron

There is an excellent 'how to solder' over here:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/terrybs-soldering-guide-part-1
And have a look at post #16 in this topic about different kinds of solder.

Then there is still the rottendog powerdriverboard. Most likely it has a blown transistor Q48. Check this before powerup the machine with new coil.

#33 3 years ago
Quoted from zaza:

Then there is still the rottendog powerdriverboard. Most likely it has a blown transistor Q48. Check this before powerup the machine with new coil.

I found this thread: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/how-to-test-a-transistor

Is this how I should test the transistor? Should I run any additional testing?

From: Pinmike
Ok,Do you want to test to see if it is shorted?
Power off,Set meter to Buzz tone-Cone shape symbol
1.Place black probe on ground(strap in backbox)
2.place red probe on the metal tab of Transistor
3.If you get a no reading/buzztone that Transistor is bad/shorted.

#34 3 years ago

In this case with Rottendog, I'm 99% sure it is possible to measure the same way for a short as the original board so yes, one probe on Ground and with the other on metal tab of transistor. If multimeter beeps, the transistor has a short.

#35 3 years ago

I think the RD boards use FETs and measuring is different since it's not a Darlington.

#36 3 years ago

True, but the test here is only to check for a short between GND and J127-7, but I'm not 100% sure the metal tab is pin2 of the FET.

#37 3 years ago

Thanks leiden and mschonbrun. I just want to make sure that I cannot damage anything during my testing as long as the machine is off. (no matter what the DMM is set to).

I also unplug the machine, is this okay or necessary? I remember one-time while changing one of the GI lights the light housing bumped into something and I saw a little spark. Since then I unplug the machine before doing anything.

#38 3 years ago

That spark is caused by a charged capacitor, not because the machine is plugged into wall outlet.

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