(Topic ID: 148459)

T2 Cannon Problem and RottenDog Lane Switch Fix


By troxel

4 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 38 posts
  • 10 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by hocuslocus
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

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#1 4 years ago

Just got a T2 and the cannon works freely, but is about 3/8" off in the home position. Ball will not feed into cannon from the ramp. Not quite sure on what to adjust and thought I would ask before I look at it closer.

Side note: I also noticed in video mode that the flippers are backwards. If I press left flipper the cursor moves to the right. This also happens when I enter initials. Is this just 2 wires switched around?

Thanks!!

#2 4 years ago

These should be pretty easy to fix. The non alignment of the cannon first: You will find a curved slot that holds a switch on the bottom of the cannon mechanism. You will also see a switch that is pressed by a post off the bottom of the mech. The one hitting the post is the home switch. You will need to change its angle so it is tripped when the thing is aligned. All you need to do is lift the play field with the cannon in the 'home position'... currently out of alignment, and loosen that switch and twist it by a small amount so it activates later/earlier as needed. Tighten again, and then start the machine. It should home now. Repeat until you get it right. See pic attached for switch I'm talking about. Once you see it, it will make sense. I'll bet yours is just loose. You might need to change the position of the one in the curved slot too. That one controls when the thing reverses.

As for the flippers, assuming the flippers themselves are responding the correct button, it sounds like you have the wires on connector J110 reversed. Not sure if the orange or the white ones or both, but that is where the flipper signal is sent to the switch matrix / CPU. I've attached a screen shot of the proper positions for the wires on this connector. If they are wired like this, then check these wire colors where then enter the CPU board in the little plugs toward its bottom. They could be reversed at that end.

Good luck. This is a great machine.

Screen_Shot_2016-01-04_at_10.17.49_PM_(resized).png

IMG_0172_(resized).jpg

#3 4 years ago

Thanks for the help. I will look at both issues hopefully this weekend and will update my results.

#4 4 years ago

I'm having an issue with my T2 cannon as well. The ball will roll down and appear to set perfectly in the cannon, but then it sits there and the cannon won’t swing out to make the shot. I have to give the game a little hand tap on the right side of the cabinet. I don’t have to bang it hard. All it usually takes is tiny little tap and then it starts moving. Is this just a switch that isn’t making contact or something? Before I start tearing into it, I thought someone here might have an idea.

#5 4 years ago

Could it be "gunked up" that bad with old grease........mine when it sits for more than a week or two...when first played my cannon moves really slow the first few swings then is fine..in my case I believe I'm warming up the "gunk"...everyone says it's easy to open up and clean...but I've yet to make that leap...............Joey

#6 4 years ago

MN pin that just sounds like the little microswitch in the cannon needs adjustment/replacement. The ball triggers that switch so the game knows the ball is in the cannon ready to fire.

#7 4 years ago
Quoted from RVApinballer:

MN pin that just sounds like the little microswitch in the cannon needs adjustment/replacement. The ball triggers that switch so the game knows the ball is in the cannon ready to fire.

I'm hoping that's what it is. Do the contacts just get dirty? The cannon has worked flawlessly for a year or so, but recently started having this issue where I had to give the side of the cabinet a little love tap.

#8 4 years ago

Adjust the metal spring to compress further when the ball rolls over it. The switch might not be making contact and your little nudge helps it do so. Or the switch might be going bad.

#9 4 years ago
Quoted from Minneapolispin:

I'm having an issue with my T2 cannon as well. The ball will roll down and appear to set perfectly in the cannon, but then it sits there and the cannon won’t swing out to make the shot. I have to give the game a little hand tap on the right side of the cabinet. I don’t have to bang it hard. All it usually takes is tiny little tap and then it starts moving. Is this just a switch that isn’t making contact or something? Before I start tearing into it, I thought someone here might have an idea.

Mine did the same thing. I would suspect the switch that detects the ball sitting in the gun. Try going in switch test and roll the ball in the trough and see if it registers. Do that several times to see if it is intermittent. The other thing to try is to jump into diagnostics when in the game and the situation occurs to see if the switch is registering.

#10 4 years ago

Having fixed several 'flakes' of this nature lately, I would endorse the idea or switch and diode replacement. Switches like this one that take a lot of jarring, and in addition, above the PF so are exposed to cleaners and wax over the life of the machine. As a result, they are particularly vulnerable to gunk and fatigue of diodes. Especially now that these things are getting to be 25 years old! So, even if adjusting can get it going again, I'd spend the $5 and get the part, and use the time to really eliminate the problem.

In my experience, these old machines develop enough problems that coming back to old ones is just not fun.

1 week later
#11 4 years ago

I am still having troubles adjusting the gun in the home position. I can manually push the gun and get it to align with the ramp, but won't align on its own. I have tried adjusting both switches and can't figure it out. What is the notch in the wheel for and where should the switch fall into this notch?

Can someone post pictures of various positions of the gun for me?

Thanks!

1 month later
#13 4 years ago

Finally had a chance to look at this again, and I don't think it's a electrical problem. It seems to be a mechanical problem. If I adjust the home switch any which way, it still stops in the same spot. I can manually move it the extra 3/8", but it won't do it on it's own. I took the cannon apart and inspected it, but didn't see anything obviously wrong.

Any other suggestions?

2 weeks later
#14 4 years ago

***Cannon is now working. Took apart the gun and cleaned out the gunk from both parts and adjusted the home and at mark switches accordingly. I am pretty sure that adjusting these 2 switches does nothing to the rotation of the gun. It's still follows the same path regardless where the switches are. I was hung up on this for quite a while trying to adjust it, and it really just needed a good clean. ****

Back to the other problem...the flippers are backwards on video mode, but work normal in game play. I looked at J110 and is wired correctly. What two wires am I looking at? You mentioned white and orange, and not seeing anything white. Is it the left/right flipper ground?

Quoted from Skarv:

As for the flippers, assuming the flippers themselves are responding the correct button, it sounds like you have the wires on connector J110 reversed. Not sure if the orange or the white ones or both, but that is where the flipper signal is sent to the switch matrix / CPU. I've attached a screen shot of the proper positions for the wires on this connector. If they are wired like this, then check these wire colors where then enter the CPU board in the little plugs toward its bottom. They could be reversed at that end.
Good luck. This is a great machine.

t2_(resized).png

#15 4 years ago

Everything looks like it's connected correctly according to the manual. I snapped some photos of the flippers, coils, and connectors. Maybe someone can spot something that I didn't see. Thanks.

Left flipper button
Right flipper button
Left coil
Right coil
Left coil
J109
J110

#16 4 years ago

In switch test T.1 , press left flipperbutton.
What does it show in diplay ? sw#11 or sw#12 ?

same for right button but that would obvious the opposite one.

Left flipperbutton should trigger sw#12

#17 4 years ago

They're backwards in the test. Lift flipper shows sw#12 and right flipper shows sw#11. Flippers work correctly (left flipper button moves left flipper), but moves the wrong way in Video Mode or when entering high score initials.

#18 4 years ago
Quoted from troxel:

They're backwards in the test. Lift flipper shows sw#12 and right flipper shows sw#11.

That should be correct but you're saying it is backwards in test.
I was hoping the PowerDriverBoard (rottendog ?) has a mixed-up flipperswitches output but not sure what's going on then.
PDB_Col1_R1_R2_(resized).jpg

#19 4 years ago
Quoted from troxel:

They're backwards in the test. Lift flipper shows sw#12 and right flipper shows sw#11. Flippers work correctly (left flipper button moves left flipper), but moves the wrong way in Video Mode or when entering high score initials.

Just noticed what I said above is incorrect. Left flipper shows sw#11 and right flipper shows sw#12. Sorry about that.

#20 4 years ago

In that case the powerdriverboard itself might be the cause of this.
From the pictures in post #15 it looks like a non-original board. Possible this board has different wiring from PDB -> CPU-board.

#21 4 years ago

You are correct. It's a Rottendog board. All the connectors look original (except the GI connectors). I'm sure it's something simply, but I am not seeing it. Here's a few more photos if it helps.

P1130138_(resized).JPG
P1130141_(resized).JPG

#22 4 years ago
Quoted from troxel:

Here's a few more photos if it helps.

Yes, in the last picture I see RD used the same id# for the opto-coupler (U8) and assume they did also with U7.
RD_Untitled-1_(resized).jpg

With another picture from the web we're about to locate the problem.

Can you measure with machine 'OFF' and short ribbon-cable removed:

-continuity between U8-5 (brown arrow) to J113-5 (brown dot) -> should have continuity
-continuity between U8-5 (brown arrow) to J113-3 (red dot)

-continuity between U7-5 (red arrow) to J113-5 (brown dot)
-continuity between U7-5 (red arrow) to J113-3 (red dot) -> should have continuity

-continuity between U8-4 (blue arrow) to J113-1 (blue dot)

RD_pdb-1_(resized).jpg

My guess is that you have continuity at two points where it should not.
If so,..I would modify the board by cutting leg 5 of both IC's and wire them vice-versa.

#23 4 years ago
Quoted from zaza:

-continuity between U8-5 (brown arrow) to J113-5 (brown dot) -> should have continuity

This was not correct. U8-5 went to J113-3

Quoted from zaza:

-continuity between U7-5 (red arrow) to J113-3 (red dot) -> should have continuity

This was not correct. U7-5 went to J113-5

So, it looks like I need to modify my board? What's the cleanest way to make this mod? Is this a normal problem with RD boards? Zaza, thanks for all the help on this. Definitely appreciate it!

#24 4 years ago

Maybe RD used the wrong schematics of the WPC-PowerDriverBoard, here is a picture with switched pins from the manual:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/t2-flipper-works-but-not-flipper-switch#post-2001669

I',m not familiar with the RottenDog board and possible there are different ways to solve this.
One option, as said above, cut leg 5 of both opto-couplers and wire them crossed.
Or maybe it is easier to cut 2 traces on the board and swap them there.
RD_mod_(resized).jpg

If you can make a picture of that area, maybe I can find an easier way to do this or if someone else has done this before, let us know.
I will check in the morning because it is already April over here.

#25 4 years ago

That did the trick!! I just de-soldered both chips and pulled pin 5 out and crossed the wires. Probably not the prettiest, but totally reversible. I'm in the process of shopping this out, and excited to get it all done. I think this was the last of the electronic problems. Thanks for all the help.

P1130189_(resized).JPG

#26 4 years ago

Perfect !
Glad I could help in this one.

A little note though, this 4N25 is used to 'read' the status of the flippercoil and has 75Volt on the upper side and the switch-matrix on the lower side, separated by an opto-coupler. Now be 100% sure that the red wires (switch-matrix) have no open insulation so that 75Volt and switch-matrix can touch together. Maybe a drop of glue to secure it in place.

RD_4N25_(resized).jpg

#27 4 years ago

Nice work solving this one guys! I wonder if Rottondog knows they have the optos wired backwards?

#28 4 years ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

I wonder if Rottondog knows they have the optos wired backwards?

I just found this on the RD website:
"Terminator 2 - Supported ONLY with boards built after Feb 2012" , so yes RD knows.

That would mean that all pre-fliptronic WPC-machines with RD WDB089 board built before Feb 2012 do have a lane-change that works inverted.
Only with the T2 video-mode it became obvious that it was wrong designed.
Good to know, saved into my memory

#29 4 years ago
Quoted from zaza:

Perfect !
Glad I could help in this one.
A little note though, this 4N25 is used to 'read' the status of the flippercoil and has 75Volt on the upper side and the switch-matrix on the lower side, separated by an opto-coupler. Now be 100% sure that the red wires (switch-matrix) have no open insulation so that 75Volt and switch-matrix can touch together. Maybe a drop of glue to secure it in place.
RD_4N25_(resized).jpg

Good point. I will probably redirect the wires around pin 3 since it's a NC.

Quoted from zaza:

I just found this on RD the website:
"Terminator 2 - Supported ONLY with boards built after Feb 2012" , so yes RD knows.
That would mean that all pre-fliptronic WPC-machines with RD WDB089 board built before Feb 2012 do have a lane-change that works inverted.
Only with the T2 video-mode it became obvious that it was wrong designed.
Good to know, saved into my memory

Glad to know of this, too.

2 months later
#30 3 years ago

I am still having flipper problems with this game. The left flipper is magnetized. I can manually push the flipper up (or press the button) and the flipper gets stuck at the top. I have switched out the crank assembly, coil stop, and coil sleeve and still have the same problem. I had R210 burn up and then the flipper worked correctly, but lost the lane change feature. I switched out u7, u8 and R210 yesterday and everything work for a bit and now flipper is getting stuck.

Any advice?

#31 3 years ago

Went back to the game tonight and the flipper is working again, but R210 is burnt.

r210_(resized).JPG

#32 3 years ago

It looks like RottenDog used the +12V to supply the optocoupler in series with a 560 Ohm resistor where the original board has a 3K3 ohm / 5W to coil power.

When the optocoupler fails and start conducting, (as it sounds from your description), it wouldn't hurt any parts on the original board. Here with the RD-board it feeds the flippercoil between +12V and +72V through R210 and will burn the resistor eventually.

If you are sure the optocouplers are OK now, you can safe replace the resistor.
I think a value between 560 and 1000 Ohm / 0.25Watt will work just fine.

#33 3 years ago

I replaced the optocoupler (both) and R210 and everything worked for a day and then the flipper started to magnetize and then R210 burnt. Now the flipper works again, but the lane change feature doesn't with R210 being open.

Just not sure what is causing this. I was going to check the diodes around the 12V and see if anything is out of spec. Any other ideas?

rd2_(resized).JPG

#34 3 years ago
Quoted from troxel:

Any other ideas?

Inspect the diodes on the flippercoil as they can give nasty spikes if the diodes are not working / broke loose from coil.
Maybe the optocoupler got blown from such voltage spikes.

#35 3 years ago

Can you test the LED in one of the blown optocouplers using the standard diode test? If that diode is failing shorted, it might cause the resistor to overheat.

I agree with zaza, suspect the flipper coil diode.

#36 3 years ago

Switched out the 2 flipper diodes and noticed the 2.2K cap had a broken led on it. Don't know if I did it or if it was like this previously. Switched out the cap, opto, and resistor and everything is working for now. Will run it for a couple of days and see if it's fixed or not. Thanks again for the help.

#37 3 years ago

The cap on the flipper is to preserve the contact points of the EOS switch and shouldn't cause this problem. Hopefully the flipper coil diodes will be the cure.

2 years later
#38 1 year ago
Quoted from zaza:

Here with the RD-board it feeds the flippercoil between +12V and +72V through R210.

This has been driving me nuts, I assumed this was the case.
On a pre-fliptronics WPC, I was getting 12 volt feedback through my coils without the 50 volt source plugged in... I've been staring at the main manual for the longest time before I looked at the rotten dog one. It's nice to have confirmation from a second source... just seemed really odd to me. Think I've spent enough time on this goose chase.

thanks for posting.

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