(Topic ID: 293442)

NMP Sensors Sys3-6 Drop Target Replacement Bords - Vids Review

By vid1900

36 days ago


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  • 52 posts
  • 9 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 9 days ago by vid1900
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

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There are 52 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 36 days ago

A few weeks ago I did a review of Seigcraft's Sys3-6 drop target replacement boards: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/siegecraft-sys-3-6-drop-target-replacement-boards-vid-s-review

I then found out that Bob from NMP Sensors had his version of the replacement boards ready for market too.

I had another Pokerino and a Time Warp in the queue, so it seemed like the perfect time to put these new boards to the test.
b3c3dc0f5ab2cf44a1ee9a4413953c6e2df418f1 (resized).jpg

#2 36 days ago

Between TimeWarp and Pokerino, we will be using every one of the NMP Sensor products.

Upon inspection, TimeWarp had a completely blown out Switch Matrix, so I switched gears, and decided to start with Pokerino instead.

Pokerino is a rare game, and no playfield schematics exist.

We do have the Switch Matrix that we will be referring to:
pokerino-switch-matrix (resized).jpg

#3 36 days ago

I don't have a Facebook, but my niece downloaded this guide for Pokerino from the NMP Sensors page:

01 (resized).jpg

Looking at this guide, I could not figure out how this would work.

I can't blame Bob, with no playfield schematics and only 70 games still in existence....it's pretty unlikely anyone had one to beta test.

#4 36 days ago

I drew up a quick plug n' play guide here; that anyone can use without needing to consult the Switch Matrix

Of course without a schematic, there would be no way to know (without having the game in front of you), that there is a Black wire with White Stripe that is the "traveler wire" that connects the Left Jack Bank with the Right Jack Bank. This traveler wire lets the game know when all the drops are down on both sides of the playfield.

NMP-POKERINO-JACKS1 (resized).jpg
.
So looking at the above to follow the logic:

We need the game to see all 4 targets down.

Williams calls this event "Jack Drop Target Series" Switch Closure #35

So, we see on the Switch Matrix that ROW 3 (White/Orange Stripe) needs to complete the circuit to COLUMN 5 (Green/Black Stripe)

Look how the White/Orange wire on the Diamond board, connects to the Club board (black wire), then across the playfield to the Hearts (Black wire), and finally to the Spades where it meets up with the Green/Black wire to complete the circuit.

Take a second and follow the circuit path until you "get it"

The above guide assumes you have the playfield ass-up on a rotisserie.

You can see that the Diamond drop target uses a double-diode Red board, the rest use the standard Green board.

#5 36 days ago

If you are not putting the game on a rotisserie to work on it, it's way easier to do the jumper soldering on the bench.

Don't let solder splash give you an afternoon of tail chasing, lol

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#6 36 days ago

I was hoping that the solder holes were standard .156 spacing, so I could install connectors - but no such luck.

This would mean that you could install the boards without any in-game soldering

Maybe an idea for revision 2.1 ?
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#7 36 days ago

Left Bank

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#8 36 days ago

Right Bank

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#9 35 days ago

Excellent VID1900. Thanks for posts!

#10 34 days ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Between TimeWarp and Pokerino, we will be using every one of the NMP Sensor products.

Looking forward to your review of the other sensor boards.

Quoted from vid1900:

Upon inspection, TimeWarp had a completely blown out Switch Matrix

If you need a switch matrix for Time Warp let me know. I also have wiring diagrams.

Quoted from vid1900:

Looking at this guide, I could not figure out how this would work.

Sorry you had trouble with the diagram. I send you a revised diagram for the Pokerino. I guess you didn’t get it. I’ve also revised the diagram on Facebook. The main difference is I showed a pink traveler because I didn’t know the actual color.

pokerino jacks and Joker (resized).jpg

Quoted from vid1900:

I was hoping that the solder holes were standard .156 spacing, so I could install connectors - but no such luck.

We discussed adding .156 headers but decided that was not a good idea. Every time you add connectors you add another place for failure especially on the playfield where there is so much vibration. I think most people would solder the wires. The solder hole sizes and locations are the same as an original slider board. If .156 spacing was used it would make soldering wires more difficult. Besides once you install these boards you’ll have no reason to remove or replace them.
The multi boards have an additional column connection for jumper wires where necessary.

After you review the multi boards I think you’ll be impressed at how easy it is to install and no adjustment necessary. They work first time – every time.

Always love your reviews – keep up the good work.

Thanks

Bob

#11 33 days ago

The connectors would be good to be able to remove the entire bank. People seem to like being able to do this (probably because hep does it a lot)

#12 33 days ago
Quoted from slochar:

The connectors would be good to be able to remove the entire bank. People seem to like being able to do this (probably because hep does it a lot)

Since each board can be easily removed first by taking out a couple of screws with no loose parts falling out nor any desoldering involved (which is the purpose of adding connectors), that sounds like overkill to me. Just add a connector for the reset coil and can yank the whole unit.

#13 33 days ago
Quoted from oldschoolbob:

Looking forward to your review of the other sensor boards.

There is lots more on the way, but I'm in a low bandwidth location at the moment.

Quoted from oldschoolbob:

I think most people would solder the wires.

At home on a rotisserie, the average joe could safely make 50 solder connections.

But if someone was doing this on location, with the playfield leaned up against the backbox, the chance of solder splash is high.

Anytime I troubleshoot a repair that **does not make any sense**, it usually involves some hack's solder splash somewhere, lol.

#14 33 days ago

You're way more likely to get solder splash desoldering a wire and yanking it off. Since these are new boards you'd just snip the old wires off, redress them and solder. And not use too much solder of course.

#15 33 days ago

I just don’t like the idea of adding more connectors. How many problems have you had with a game because of failed connectors? Also the chance of solder splash seems greater installing the connector headers at .156.

The connectors may be good if you have to clean and adjust the sliders but these sensors don’t need to be adjusted or replaced so there is really no reason to remove them.

#16 33 days ago
Quoted from oldschoolbob:

also the chance of solder splash seems greater installing the connector headers at .156.

I'd solder all the male connectors on the bench, then take the finished boards to the location for installation.

Quoted from frenchmarky:

You're way more likely to get solder splash desoldering a wire and yanking it off.

Exactly.

Much better to snip wires off, then crimp on .156 connector .

No soldering means no chance of splash ....

,

And remember, no one would be required to install connectors. If you fear them, or don't own a crimper, you could solder the wires on old school.

#17 33 days ago
Quoted from vid1900:

And remember, no one would be required to install connectors.

Thank goodness.

#18 33 days ago

The problem is if I made the boards connector friendly it would make them difficult to solder wires onto the boards. The solder pads would be too small.

If you need connectors why not solder the wires to the board and install an inline molex connector. I believe Stern did this on their large target bank on Flight 2000.

#19 32 days ago
Quoted from oldschoolbob:

If you need connectors why not solder the wires to the board and install an inline molex connector. I believe Stern did this on their large target bank on Flight 2000.

That's exactly what I do on *any* drop target assembly that does not presently have connectors. I install connectors so that the assembly can be easily removed for service or cleaning. Sure makes things alot easier when you need to replace a broken drop target in the future.

#20 32 days ago
Quoted from oldschoolbob:

The problem is if I made the boards connector friendly it would make them difficult to solder wires onto the boards. The solder pads would be too small.

LOL

Lower your shields.

All the way....

Think of what you are saying.

The solder pads on a .158 spaced pad would be too small to solder to?

This can't be true when 99% of everything on a pinball machine is .1" pads, thus much smaller.

All those Bally -35 boards covered in battery corrosion, .1" connectors....

All those dead Williams switch matrix 4049's.... yep, .1" pads

All those dead AMI ram chips... .1"

All those melted Bally power supply boards, we step up to the big connectors, .158" !

Other drop target boards have .158 pads, and Google could not find a single complaint that they were too small to solder

100-thickbox_default (resized).jpg

My portable desolder gun lives with the .1" tip in it and only occasionally gets the big .158" tip

#21 32 days ago
Quoted from KenLayton:

That's exactly what I do on *any* drop target assembly that does not presently have connectors. I install connectors so that the assembly can be easily removed for service or cleaning. Sure makes things alot easier when you need to replace a broken drop target in the future.

Those are good for home use, when you have a bunch of spare Molex with the same size/configuration somewhere.

But I HATE going to an arcade service call and finding one of those melted against a blown coil.

It's always some non-standard configuration that I don't have on my truck, requiring me to bypass it to get the game working again. At $120 a hour, that's expensive time wasted while I drive to the 24hr auto parts store....sucks.

#22 32 days ago
Quoted from oldschoolbob:

If you need a switch matrix for Time Warp let me know.

I did this color version that corrected the errors in the manual a long time ago:

TIME-WARP-SWITCH-MATRIX (resized).jpg

But if you have that 3D one that used to be on *****'s site, I would love a copy!

(please and thank you)

#23 31 days ago

Vid, Not that your words are falling on deaf ears. I have been working on a header layout design. Not sure yet – more design work to do. I’ll keep you posted. Whatever it takes to make these easy to install and use. And trouble free. That was the whole purpose of these boards.

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1 week later
#24 24 days ago

I hacked into a network (monkey in the middle, before you ask) and got some bandwidth this morning, we'll see how long it lasts, lol

Still working on 2nd Pokerino here.

The wiring for the 4-bank of Queens drops are an insane mess from the factory:

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The NMP board cleans this up immensely:

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#25 24 days ago

One great trick to clean wiring, is to solder the column wire across the backside of the board

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Keeping with the same wiring color scheme, means that future generations of pintechs will be able to figure it out.

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#26 24 days ago

Here you can see that the last Green/Orange column wire jumps off the board, to the "Queen Stand Up Target #22" that you hit when the drops are down.

This wire may be Green/Orange stripe, or sometimes just plain Orange in the game. No one knows why....
1C (resized).jpg

The center Joker target, is easy, with only 2 solder connections.

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#27 23 days ago

Nice wiring job. Very clean.

#28 23 days ago

Did Williams originally use gold-flashed contacts on the horseshoes on those early SS drop targets or were they the exact same ones from their EM games?

#29 23 days ago
Quoted from frenchmarky:

Did Williams originally use gold-flashed contacts on the horseshoes on those early SS drop targets or were they the exact same ones from their EM games?

Don't know about the original ones but the Homepin replacement horseshoes available from Pinball Life have silver contacts.

#30 23 days ago
Quoted from frenchmarky:

Did Williams originally use gold-flashed contacts on the horseshoes on those early SS drop targets or were they the exact same ones from their EM games?

It's the EM style but assembled backwards so you don't use one for the other. Silver.
951029ac70f143c9af4d4372aa5391961c95aca5 (resized).jpg

Williams on Left, Homepin on Right

#31 23 days ago
Quoted from pins4u:

Don't know about the original ones but the Homepin replacement horseshoes available from Pinball Life have silver contacts.

'Cause I was thinking, okay it's a SS game so you think, scoring switch = gold switch... but I can't imagine gold flashing holding up for very long in these things, and probably with the relatively massive amount of switch 'wipe' vs. a leaf switch, they didn't need it anyway. So probably just used silver.

#32 23 days ago
Quoted from frenchmarky:

but I can't imagine gold flashing holding up for very long in these things

With such a long travel stroke, gold would probably wear off in months...maybe less; making the worst drop target system even more problematic

1 week later
#33 10 days ago

You get a stack of Neodymium magnets with the kit, separated by thin plastic spacers so you can pull the stack apart.

You have to glue the magnets to the back of the drop targets.

Start by removing all the old horseshoe contacts from your drops:
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#34 10 days ago

The drops will be grimy from 40 years of coil dust, so clean them off with Naphtha.

If you don't clean them, the glue won't stick.

The magnets seems oil free, but I cleaned them, just to be safe.

3 (resized).jpg

Note that the drop on the far Left, fits a single drop target mech, like the Joker in Pokerino

#35 10 days ago

For glue, I used Cyanoacrylate Super Glue Gel by Fast Cap.

You assemble your parts, then you mist on the Fast Cap Activator, and it instantly hardens.

Greatest invention ever when you are replacing a neck full of guitar frets....

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#36 10 days ago

....but maybe not the greatest glue for drop targets.

The glue seemed to bond very well with both the drops and the magnets, but it broke off of many of the targets after about a dozen games.

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It's almost like the glue itself shattered from the high speed impacts

#37 10 days ago

So I had to take all the drops apart and re-glue them.

Acetone is the sworn enemy of any Cyanoacrylate super glue, so I cleaned off all the glue from both the magnets and the drops.

Then I switched to 2 part epoxy that's made for plastics.

I figure it might not be as strong, but it will have some **give** and hopefully not shatter from a direct blast from the flippers.

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#38 10 days ago

I roughed up the targets a little bit with 220g sandpaper, to give the epoxy some **tooth**, and again glued down all the magnets.
4 (resized).jpg

On the far left you can see that the single drop target does not have the half-moon cutout as the multi-target drops do.

Just glue the magnet against the mounting posts, it lines up perfectly.

#39 10 days ago

Even plastic epoxy is not the greatest glue for plastics subjected to impacts.

A better choice would be 3M VHB (very high bond) adhesive discs.

3M VHB is what they use to permanently apply trim to cars, adhere alarm magnets to doors that are always being slammed or anything else where different materials have to be joined together under adverse conditions.
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#40 10 days ago

GAMEPLAY WITH NMP DROPS INSTALLED

=================================

So how does the game play with those drop boards installed?

Amazing.

Those magnets add a little heft to the targets, so they positively drop.

With no springy switch contacts on the backside, you never get a hanging target.

With the switches being closed magnetically, you never have to send the ball into the pops hoping that the vibrations cause the contacts to close on already dropped targets.

And for a beginner who's never had to adjust those horseshoe contacts (not too tight, not too loose), it's probably the closest thing to instant gratification. A whole generation of pintechs might grow up never knowing the pleasures of dicking with those Goldilock-like contacts.

Highly recommended!

The Great Satan

#41 10 days ago

Pricing

==================

Single drop target board - $10.00
3 bank drop target board - $28.00
4 bank drop target board - $38.00
5 bank drop target board - $48.00

So these are the current prices in June 2021.

Are they too expensive?

Let's look at the alternative @ Pinball Life: https://www.pinballlife.com/search.html?Search=horseshoe%20drop%20target

Single conventional board + horseshoe contact - $7.00
3 conventional boards + 3 horseshoe contacts - $21.00
4 conventional boards + 4 horseshoe contacts - $28.00
5 conventional boards + 5 horseshoe contacts - $35.00

So about 30% more expensive, but no contacts to adjust and no hanging drops.

Maybe a little more time involved gluing the magnets, but a novice might use up more time adjusting how much **spring** the horseshoe contacts require without them hanging themselves up.

For a game on location, where cleaning all those contacts is a chore, any difference in price would be made up by a single service call.

Hopefully NMP can get these boards stocked at Marco and Pinball Life, so you can simply add them to your weekly order.

One stop shopping saves time, natural resources and shipping costs.
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#42 10 days ago

Good review! I liked them so much that I started carrying them in my store.
https://troxelrepair.com/product/nmp/

#43 10 days ago

I still don't understand what makes the targets stay latched up, mechanically. A guy designed a more complex microswitch+electronics replacement board on youtube and he specifically showed where he left the horseshoes in place as they were 'needed for spring action', the contacts just wipe on areas purposely left bare of any parts or traces.. And I tried removing a spring blade on a BK target and it became useless, would only stay up upon reset half the time. Which makes sense, why put the blades there if they don't need spring action to reliably stay up? And those targets look essentially the same where the spring blade mounts in the old horseshoe screw holes. However that might be due to 'down' spring being relocated after Sys 6 or some other differences, I don't know. But haven't seen any reports of these magnet ones not staying up... only being a little easier to knock down.

#44 10 days ago
Quoted from troxel:

Good review! I liked them so much that I started carrying them in my store.
https://troxelrepair.com/product/nmp/

That's a cool website you got there

Lots of EM and video game repairs documented too

You guys should check it out

#45 10 days ago
Quoted from frenchmarky:

I still don't understand what makes the targets stay latched up, mechanically.

The extension spring on the face side of the target, holds the hook of the target to the mech ledge; by pulling the target both forward and downward.

When the ball pushes the target backwards 2mm, the same spring now pulls the target below the playfield surface.

No springs needed on the backside.

14 (resized).jpg
#46 10 days ago

All the holding tension happens on the front side.

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#47 9 days ago

Thanks Vid for the explanation of the extension spring. Usually if the target doesn’t latch it’s because the coil doesn’t raise the targets high enough. In that case a small shim on the bottom of the target is all it takes. I’ve personally done 3 games and never had a problem.

Have you used the VHB disks to hold the magnets in place? I’ve had good results with epoxy and super glue but those disks look very promising.

Bob

#48 9 days ago

On ActionPinball's site, it appears that the system 7 and up targets that use a spring blade have a shallower ledge than the horseshoe version, like sawed off about half way down, but the pics are fuzzy. I only have my BK's to look at but they are truncated like that and the horseshoe ones in the above pics aren't. Maybe "that's the ticket" as to why the latter version really does need the spring blade? But I don't know for sure that the ledge height is indeed different.

Mehh even if that was the issue it's probably moot as far as using these on a BK and onward. Even if you switched to the old style targets in a BK, with these boards and no blades, pretty sure the stubbier target bottoms won't work with the newer reset arms anyway.
thumbnail1.png3475cf85-9002-4456-a110-a18ba8b094d4Original (resized).jpg

#49 9 days ago
Quoted from troxel:

Good review! I liked them so much that I started carrying them in my store.
https://troxelrepair.com/product/nmp/

Placed an order in your store right before you posted this. Can't wait to get them installed in my Blackout.

#50 9 days ago
Quoted from oldschoolbob:

Have you used the VHB disks to hold the magnets in place? I’ve had good results with epoxy and super glue but those disks look very promising.

I missed one of the targets from Time Warp upon the second gluing.

I didn't want to wait for epoxy to dry, so I used a roll of VHB tape to glue the magnet.

I did not have any discs in house, but probably the same difference

There are 52 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.

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