(Topic ID: 279938)

System 9 will not start a game but tries

By zeiram

3 years ago


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#1 3 years ago

I am in need of some help. I have a Sorcerer with a system 9 board that had damage on it that was repaired. Well fast forward to now and I have an issue starting a game. It resets the drop targets (after I have put them down by hand) and wants to kick out the ball but won't. Board shows 0 on led and everything works in the test. All solenoids, switches, lamps and displays perform fine in test mode. Trough switches work in test mode using balls and by hand. Checked trough switches with multimeter and they are both fine. I have swapped the 6808s on the board, tried both regular ram and nvram on the board and swapped out different game roms. Tried with credits added by the coin door and by setting it to free play. Power supply rebuilt and all caps replaced. Voltages are perfect. LED displays added.
I know I am missing something simple and probably have looked at it for too long. Thanks!

#2 3 years ago

Oh one more thing that is very strange. I cannot get Leon's or Marco's test roms to work.

#3 3 years ago

You likely thought of this, but..
The old 1amp slow blo fuse issue?....maybe under the playfield in the vicinity of the ball in play kicker?

I have little experience with Williams, but this is common on that generation of Bally.

#4 3 years ago

There is no separate playfield fuse on Williams games.

Does the outhole solenoid work in test mode? With ball in outhole? And what do you mean by "wants to kick out ball"? Is the solenoid partially operating?

#5 3 years ago

Everything works in test mode for sure. Outhole solenoid and ramp eject (what system 9 calls the shooter lane kicker) work great. When start button is pressed the drop target coil resets, the multiball eject fires and it sounds like the ramp eject does for a nano second but not enough to kick out a ball. Also no extra fuse for it

#6 3 years ago

It sounds like the game does not know that there are two balls in it. Can you remove the apron and confirm that both trough switches work in switch test mode? (You don’t really need Leon’s test rom once the game is booting.). While in there, make certain there are no physical problems clogging things up. Both balls should be in the trough, one should NOT be in the out hole.

Another common issue is the start button may not be registering. Confirm it works in switch test as well. Also check the out hole switch is registering every time.

It’s also worth mentioning that it is also
Important to check there are no EXTRA switches closing that should not be, while in switch test. It’s so important and a lot of people do not realize this.

I’ve owned a few Sorcerer’s and these two things were actually a problem on both!

#7 3 years ago

Checked all that. All switches work fine in switch test. Both trough switches work fine. Start button works fine too. No other switches closed.

#8 3 years ago

So you went into switch test and the machine is reporting ZERO switches closed with the balls removed. In other words, there is no number displayed on the credit/match display in switch test with the balls removed?

If that's a yes, then load the balls, then manually push them over to the trough area and go to switch test and report here what two switches are showing as closed on the C/M display.

I do realize you went into switch test and that you understand how to use it. Obviously there is still something wrong. The Pinside technical help portion of the forum is a public message board where you ask for help. It is not just for you, it's for all pinball enthusiasts to learn and understand, for all time.

One strange thing you mentioned above "the drop target coil" resets. Sorcerer does not have a "single" drop target... What mechanism are you referring to that "resets" when you press start? Also, the "multiball eject" fires... that's not correct. It would only fire if the game is missing a ball or that multiball eject switch is tripped.

One other thing to try in switch test is when nothing is tripped, bang your closed fist down in the middle of the playfield hard and make sure that no switches are being tripped. That could help point out one that is adjusted way too close.

#9 3 years ago
Quoted from snyper2099:

Sorcerer does not have a drop target

Sure it does, a three bank, upper right.

Does the kicker assembly move freely? Could there be some binding in the coil that is hampering it enough to not be able to fully eject the ball?

#10 3 years ago

So I have gone into switch test and yes no switches are closed and nothing is indicated on the displays. I have tested the trough switches with my fingers and using balls and they both activate, showing 29 and 30 as being closed on the display. And I guarantee you that the drop targets reset and the multi ball eject fires. And you can hear the slightest pulse with the ball trough eject. I have rebuilt the mechanisms and they all work perfect in coil test. I put balls in there and they get ejected during the test.

#11 3 years ago

Oh and I did the bang thing to activate a switch. During test nothing activates except the spinners sometimes just for a sec.

#12 3 years ago

Sorry, I was thrown off by "drop target" (singular) was thinking you meant a single target.

After reading your most recent post, as a next step I would replace Q48. I know, I know it works in test mode. I have had TIP102 and TIP122 transistors just beginning to fail and they only work under certain circumstances.

If that does not resolve it, if you have one, I would swap the ball serve coil if that does not help, then swap in a known working system 9 board into the game to try and confirm it's the driver board that has the problem.

As an additional test---> (You could also take a bare wire and hold one end to the side rail of the cabinet and the other to the TIP102 at Q48 and see if it fires when the game is in attract mode. I would only do this very briefly and only a couple times as you don't want to blow the fuse.)

Some other thoughts, the problem is only happening when the game is in a specific state (attract mode). So, we have to determine what is special about that state. Just spit balling, a bunch of lamps are on in attract mode, the displays are in a different state, and the sound board trying to fire up... So, we have those three things drawing power that are not in the same state during the coil test mode.

Also, the drops are supposed to reset when you press start but the multiball kickout coil is not supposed to fire when you press start. It would only do this if the game thinks a ball is missing.

It sounds like you are getting very close, just need to dig a bit deeper.

#13 3 years ago

Cool I will try that a little later. I thought about what you said in the last paragraph. It seems like when it gets to the ball serve coil it returns to attract mode because of a failed component drawing power, well maybe.

#14 3 years ago

OK, so I replaced Q48, replaced coil, tested transistors using jumper, checked all the resistor networks. Nothing has changed. I do not have another system 9 board.

#15 3 years ago
Quoted from zeiram:

OK, so I replaced Q48, replaced coil, tested transistors using jumper, checked all the resistor networks. Nothing has changed. I do not have another system 9 board.

Are any error messages displayed after pressing the start button? I had a Bally Party Animal that previously wouldn’t start a game. When pressing the start button the display would say PARTY! PARTY! PARTY! PARTY! A ball would correctly eject but then immediately the game would stop and it said error check playfield fuse whatever. It ended up being a misaligned ball serve plunger arm that wasn’t resetting so the game thought the coil was locked on.

#16 3 years ago

There are no error messages displayed on system 9’s...

And the coil fires with a jumper wire? Sounds like a mystery to me. I really don’t know at this point. Did you try to unplug lamps and sound board, displays, etc, and see if the game starts with the bare minimum connected... (switches and coils only)

#17 3 years ago

Coil fires with the jumper wire. I disconnected everything but the switches and coils. No change.

#18 3 years ago

I also wanted to confirm the game does go to “attract mode” correctly when it boots?

The only thing I can think is that the test part of the roms are working but the game parts are not... maybe tone out the socketed EPROMs and make certain a pin is not missing (I know you tried different rom chips).. look with a high powered flashlight and make sure that a socketed chip has no pins bent or missing... (tone out ram socket too). At this point I feel like a trace or socket is faulty.

Maybe take your system 9 board to a friend or location with a system 9 game and test it in another game as a last confirmation that it’s the board.

If you figure it out, please Post the fix. It’s a strange one.

#19 3 years ago

Problem solved. I was using the rom files from Planetary. I switched over to the ones on IPDB and burned a 128 and everything works fine. Still not sure why the test roms don't work but that was it. Thanks for all the suggestions.

#20 3 years ago

Good that it works now!

Could you give a download link to both romsets, so we could try to find out why the other one did not work?

#21 3 years ago

Wow, ok that is good you got it going. I would post in the Sorcerer Club those roms don’t work.

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