(Topic ID: 164979)

System 80B won't boot - boots! No GI & can't start a game


By Topher5000

3 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 96 posts
  • 13 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by ChrisHibler
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

There have been 9 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

It's Alive (resized).jpg
001 (resized).jpg
Untitled_(resized).jpg
DSCF6748_(resized).JPG
DSCF6747_(resized).JPG
DSCF6746_(resized).JPG
DSCF6743_(resized).JPG
DSCF6745_(resized).JPG
DSCF6744_(resized).JPG

There are 96 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 3 years ago

Went to start up my Raven yesterday & it wouldn't boot. No display & the solenoids don't reset.
In trying to fix my no sound issue, Pinsider Erak replaced the trimpot & LM338K on the PS & the big cap at the transformer panel. I've done the ground mods, replaced the bridge rectifiers & re-pinned most of the single-sided edge connectors. I was going to re-pin the MPU\driver board harness & if that didn't get the sound back, I was going to take the boards in to checked/repaired.
I checked the voltage at A1J1 & it was low, about 3.9v. I adjusted it to 4.95v but no change. In reading, it could be the MPU daughter board. I'll press on it tonight to see if anything happens. Is there something else I should look at? Somewhere else I should check the voltage? Maybe it's a fuse?

#2 3 years ago

If it was working fine before there's a good chance it could be a fuse. I would check them all before I did anything elts. Check them with dmm not just a visual check.

#3 3 years ago

I actually did that last night. The display fuse (F3) was reading 9.6 ohms, so I'll get some more fuses. The 1/4 amp slo-blo may be hard to find. It doesn't appear that the hardware stores carry them.
I should have said in my first post that there's a hum through the speaker that changes volume with the volume pot. When I was checking things, I'd turn it off, unplug one connector, turn it on, turn it off, plug that connector back in, unplug another, turn it on, etc. The hum went away only when A5P1 was unplugged. When I did the ground mods, there wasn't a picture of where to attach the ground wire & I need pictures. Hi-res pictures Pinwiki's been updated, so I'll also add that.

#4 3 years ago

Well, I replaced F3 but that didn't work. The battery in my DMM died so I couldn't check the others, but F2 looked suspect so I replaced that one also.
What else could it be? The voltages are good (I'll recheck though) & wiggling the daughter card didn't do anything.
I think it's time to call a tech. I'm not sure what's the best route. Since I still have no sound, I think take the cards in & have them checked & then if it still won't boot, have a house call done. Or have a house call & if it won't boot, take the cards in?

#5 3 years ago

Should I continue re-pinning the connectors before I contact a tech, or is the non-booting more likely something else?

#6 3 years ago

Check some of Todd's videos about system 80bs. Some good info on there like cleaning the contacts with fibre glass pencil.

#7 3 years ago

Plug the reset board in and then turn the power on, then push on the middle of the daughter card with your thumb, if that doesn't do anything while pushing on it wiggle it a bit and see if that does anything. If your reset board still works it will keep trying to reset it while your pressing on it. I had one that wouldn't reset unless you held your finger on it with some pressure.

#8 3 years ago
Quoted from Marv:

Check some of Todd's videos about system 80bs. Some good info on there like cleaning the contacts with fibre glass pencil.

I actually disagree with using that technique. While it does clean off the contacts, it also thins the material, which is already incredibly thin. It's better to use a pink rubber eraser for cleaning--that way, you don't thin the metal.

#9 3 years ago

Thanks guys. I'll try that when I get home.

#10 3 years ago
Quoted from crlush:

Plug the reset board in and then turn the power on, then push on the middle of the daughter card with your thumb, if that doesn't do anything while pushing on it wiggle it a bit and see if that does anything. If your reset board still works it will keep trying to reset it while your pressing on it. I had one that wouldn't reset unless you held your finger on it with some pressure.

If you suspect cracked solder joints, remove the board and inspect it. Although, some of the joints that fail are on the back o the daughter board, rather than the MPU itself. But chances are that if you spot cracked solder joints on the MPU, there are probably some on the daughter board as well.

Also, if you suspect an MPU problem, rather than a connector or voltage problem, this disgnostic device is helpful:

http://www.pinitech.com/products/gottlieb_universaltester.php

And as long as you're getting that, you might as well also get the daughter board replacement, even if it's just to rule out a problem with it.

http://www.pinitech.com/products/gottlieb_piggydeux.php

#11 3 years ago

I'm not an electronics guy & I'm learning this as I go, so my diagnostic skills are pretty bad.
It could be a connector issue as I haven't done all the single-sided & none of the doubles, but I haven't read anything about that causing it not to boot. I don't think it's a voltage problem as I checked the voltage of the A1J1 connector & set it 4.95v.
I'll try looking at the daughter board, but I don't know what a cracked solder joint looks like, & it appears that they could be under it. I was thinking of the piggydeux, but maybe I should get someone to look at it before I spend more money, perhaps unnecessarily. I wish I knew someone local with a sys80b game so I could swap the boards & narrow it down. Pretty soon this Raven's going to be a $3000 game

#12 3 years ago

All the MPU needs is the correct voltage and the slam switch in order to boot. Then the displays to see what's going on.

To start a game, a ball needs to be in the trough.

But, since you have nothing on the displays, as mentioned in the first post, none of those things sound like they will be the problem.

Cracked solder joins have a crack in them around the pin.

http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Post-Purchase_Checklist#Cracked_Solder_Joints

#13 3 years ago

Thanks ForceFlow. I'll take a look at the slam switch too anyways.

#14 3 years ago

I replaced some fuses & checked the voltage at A4J1. On pin 1 (6.2VAC) I get 2.4v; pin 2 (6.2VAC Return) 5.9v; pin 3 (32VAC) 29v & pin 4 (32VAC Return) 7.5v. All were checked between the pins & pin 19, the ground. I had adjusted the 5v supply to give 4.95v on A1J1.
I'm learning this as I go, so I have no idea if these numbers mean anything. If they're low, I don't know how to adjust them, if possible.
The slam switch seems okay but I still have to check for cracked solder joints.
I've re-pinned connectors A1J5, A1J6, A3J4, A5J1 & A6P1. A1J1 had been re-pinned before I got it. Should I keep re-pinning or should I just call the shop about getting the boards checked?

#15 3 years ago

You said you adjusted the 5v to 4.95. Was that with the flu connected? I generally adjust it to 5.2 without the flu connected.

#16 3 years ago

Hi Pinwiz.
I had everything connected. What's a flu? At this point, I'll try anything.

#17 3 years ago

I checked a couple of voltages & tried setting the voltage at the A1J1 connector to 5.2v.
On A2J2, the highest I could set it was 5.2v, resulting in the 4.96v on A1J1.
I checked the A2J1 connector, which should be 12v on pins 4 & 5 of the connector. I got 1.17v on pin 4 & 14.5v on pin 5. Pin 6 looks like an output, so I got 0v. Also, there's no wire in pin 1, which should be a double of the ground.
Do these point to anything?

#18 3 years ago

That was supposed to be mpu sorry

#19 3 years ago

Yeah, I had disconnected the MPU. No difference.
I was rooting around & moved the leads to the bridge rectifiers & the game booted! YAY! But, that means that it was my crappy solder job.
Now, I get the tilt switch closed error. Board issue? MPU?

#20 3 years ago

Check z14 on the mpu. It's probably bad. Or has a cracked joint. If it is, replacing it or reflowing will fix the tilt error.

Use the "diode test" to test Z10 thru Z14.

#21 3 years ago

Ugh. The wires that were loose were on the rectifier that has the two resistors so I redid the solder job & now F2 is blowing. I have spare rectifiers so I guess I'll replace it.
I only have one 6.25A fuse left. For testing purposes, would a 6A fast act fuse work?

#22 3 years ago

6A is ok for testing IF the voltage matches or is higher.

But since it's not a slo-blo your circuit may be good and still blow the fuse.

Edit: My Gottlieb Rock calls for a 6.25a, 250v slo-blo at F2

#23 3 years ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

6A is ok for testing IF the voltage matches. You don't want to replace a 6.25A 125v with a 6A 250v.

sorry but this is utter rubbish. the voltage rating of a fuse is the MAXIMUM it can handle without arcing AFTER it blows .. you can use all the 250V fuses you like .. it wont matter a bit

#24 3 years ago
Quoted from wiredoug:

sorry but this is utter rubbish. the voltage rating of a fuse is the MAXIMUM it can handle without arcing AFTER it blows .. you can use all the 250V fuses you like .. it wont matter a bit

If you're right then Topher shouldn't use a fuse with a LOWER voltage rating because it may arc when it blows.

Do you have a source for that info?

#25 3 years ago

you still dont understand.. he shouldnt use any fuse with a lower rating that the actual circuit.

lets say its a 5v circuit and he uses a 32v fuse.. it will happily blow and not arc as its only subject to 5v, ergo 110, 230 will be fine too .. they wont arc either...

type 'voltage fuse rating' into google for pages and pages of explanation .. the short version is rate your fuse for at or higher than the voltage of the circuit

#26 3 years ago
Quoted from wiredoug:

you still dont understand.. he shouldnt use any fuse with a lower rating that the actual circuit.
lets say its a 5v circuit and he uses a 32v fuse.. it will happily blow and not arc as its only subject to 5v, ergo 110, 230 wont either...

I understand what you're saying, I'm asking if you have a source so I can correct my advice if it's wrong. Topher is asking if a 6A fast acting will work for testing in place of a 6.25A slo-blo. I said yes, if the voltages match but don't go with a higher voltage rating, but it may blow immediately and the circuit still be good. You said no, match both A & V ratings? Or did you say yes if the voltage matches or higher?

#27 3 years ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:Topher is asking if a 6A fast acting will work for testing in place of a 6.25A slo-blo. I said yes,

good but irrelevant, ...this bit is the problem

Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

You don't want to replace a ... 125v with a ... 250v.

i dont need a source for basic fuse theory, its just how they work, feel free to ask any questions *after* you help yourself learn about it by googling "fuse voltage rating" into google and reading a few of the top links

heres one to get you started
http://www.fuseco.com.au/help/faq_low_voltage_fuses/3056?pid=13423&sid=13282

then another
http://www.littelfuse.com/technical-resources/frequently-asked-questions.aspx#question_4_1

then juicy details to make it way more complicated that you need it to be
http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/51366/how-does-a-fuse-blow-at-its-current-rating-regardless-of-voltage

the fuse voltage rating must be HIGHER than the circuit... you can use 250V fuses in everything .. you DO "want to replace a ... 125v with a ... 250v"

#28 3 years ago

Hey guys.
So, as long as the voltage is the same or higher, I'll be safe. Will the 6A fast acting fuse work for testing? They're available locally. I think I'd have to order the 6.25A slo-blo, but I'll phone around today.

#29 3 years ago

It's ok to use, the problem is if it blows it doesn't mean the circuit is bad. If it doesn't blow you know for sure it's good.
Since the designer called for a slo-blo it's likely this circuit pulls more than 6.25a sometimes, then drops back to just under 6a. Your fast acting 6a fuse may blow under perfectly normal conditions.

I think it's worth testing, just be aware that this blown 6a fast acting fuse doesn't mean it's bad.

#30 3 years ago

Ah, thanks. I'll try to find some 6.25A fuses locally. Thanks for the explanation of slo-blo.

#31 3 years ago
Quoted from Topher5000:

..The wires that were loose were on the rectifier.. so I redid the solder job..now F2 is blowing

never mind the fuses for a sec... it used to work, you 'redid solder' .. now the fuse blows.

can we just consider the possibility that when you soldered the "loose" wire ( they were either soldered or they werent really?) perhaps you connected it to the wrong tab ??

#32 3 years ago

No, I could tell what tab they were on. When I replaced the rectifiers back around Christmas, I did them just as they were. I checked the manual this time & I'm pretty sure I have the wire colours correct, but I'll check again. I just did a crappy job. It's the tab wit R1 & R2 on it.
Perhaps something happened when I moved the wires with the power on, not realizing that the wires had become disconnected.

Edit: I'll take a pic & post it before I do anything. I'm not very good at reading schematics as I've never had to before.

#33 3 years ago

a pic sounds like a good plan. then we teach you how to test it with a multimeter

#34 3 years ago

Here are pics of the rectifiers. Please be kind about my crappy soldering job. About the only other experience I have soldering was adding lights to plastic models. I have a better temp controlled soldering station & a flux pen now so hopefully I can do a better job.

DSCF6744_(resized).JPG

DSCF6745_(resized).JPG

DSCF6743_(resized).JPG

DSCF6746_(resized).JPG

DSCF6747_(resized).JPG

DSCF6748_(resized).JPG

#35 3 years ago
Quoted from Topher5000:

Here are pics of the rectifiers. Please be kind about my crappy soldering job.

Just looks like you need more heat. Those blobs should have melted over the tabs and coated them. Those really large metal tabs need a heavy amount of heat to flow the solder well, but not so long that the rectifier melts. If you can adjust the temp on your station, crank it up for those larger lugs.

#36 3 years ago

Will do thedefog, thanks.
My neighbor who was looking at the transformer panel when I moved the wires told me he saw arcing, so that probably pooched at least one rectifier. I read Terryb's electronics tutorial about testing rectifiers so I'll check them tonight & replace as necessary.

#37 3 years ago
Quoted from Topher5000:

Will do thedefog, thanks.
My neighbor who was looking at the transformer panel when I moved the wires told me he saw arcing, so that probably pooched at least one rectifier. I read Terryb's electronics tutorial about testing rectifiers so I'll check them tonight & replace as necessary.

No prob. Good luck with the repair.

#38 3 years ago

This is from terryb's website:
Testing Bridge Rectifiers
You can test bridge rectifiers the same way you test diodes. The line the triangle is pointing at matches the line on the diode packaging (the cathode). You can test each leg individually as described below.

1. Put the DMM in diode mode.
2. Put your test leads on two adjacent legs.
3. In one direction you should read .3 to .7 volts and null when you reverse the leads.
4. Move clockwise and repeat this three more times for a total of four tests.

In this image you would test from top to right, then right to bottom, then bottom to left and finally left to top.

Untitled_(resized).jpg

Is this correct? in another post barakandl states:

Take your DMM. Set it to diode test.

Red lead on bridge negative lug (i know it seems backwards) and probe the AC lugs (wavy lines). You should see 0.4v to 0.6v. If 0.00 is shown, that is why the fuse is blowing.

Repeat procedure for other half of the bridge. Set the black lead on positive lug. Red lead probe the AC lugs. Again. 0.4v to 0.6v.

I'm a little confused.

#39 3 years ago

Just follow the direction of the arrows/triangles. The red probe is your starting point on your meter, and it ends on your black probe. So for diode testing (which is all a bridge rectifier is, just 4 diodes) all of the arrows/triangles should only flow in one direction from one point to the next, red to black. If you reverse the test leads, black to red, you should get no reading on your meter (when in diode test mode).

#41 3 years ago

I tested the rectifiers & the one with the two resistors, for the F2 fuse, tested bad so I replaced it. The soldering turned out much better than the last time, but the lug with the resistors was a PITA. I'll post a pic or two if I remember.
Weird though, the rectifier tested good once I had it removed.
I'll put the transformer panel back in tonight & try it with my one remaining fuse. Hopefully it'll work & I'll be able to look into the tilt switch error.

#42 3 years ago
Quoted from Topher5000:

Weird though, the rectifier tested good once I had it removed.

Testing components in circuit often yields inaccurate or invalid results. This happens because other connected circuitry is influencing the readings.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/contact/
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#43 3 years ago

Well, I put the transformer back in, put in my remaining fuse & fired it up. The solenoids reset, but I got gobbedy-gook on the lower display. Turned it off, on & got nothing, no solenoids & no display. Turned it off & on again & got the gobbedy-gook, but no solenoids. Eventually the fuse blew again, although it was the original fuse & looked suspect.
The screw holes in the side were a little loose so I could only snug the grounds down, not tighten them. Could this cause it? I'm going to install bolts in it to act as ground lugs.
This is quite frustrating & discouraging. My soldering job looked pretty good, but I must have done something wrong. I guess I have to learn sometime though.
I'll order some more fuses & the ICs for Z10 thru Z14 & call someone who knows what they're doing before I make matters worse. Now my sound problem seems trivial.
This is why you have to own at least two pins, so you can play one while the other's broken.

#44 3 years ago

Gobbledygook on one display but not the other is almost always a display problem. Further testing might prove that.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/contact/
http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

#45 3 years ago

I added the ground lugs, re-checked my soldering of the rectifiers, put a new fuse in & fired 'er up. I got 0's on the bottom & tilt switch closed on the top but the solenoids didn't reset. After a while the display went out, so I figure the fuse blew again.
I was thoroughly disappointed & frustrated. I had to leave the room so I wouldn't have to look at it. I swear, all I did was replace the rectifier feeding F2. Obviously I messed something up.
Since the solenoids didn't reset, I figure it's not getting 5v. I'll check the rectifiers again and replace as necessary (I've got 2 more new ones) & if it still won't boot & the fuse fries, I'll call someone who's better at soldering than I am. I got replacement IC's for the tilt switch error so maybe I can get that fixed at the same time as there's no way I'm touching boards. Forgot to order sockets though.

#46 3 years ago

I'm going to measure the voltage & amperage across F2. For the amps, I'll take the fuse out & measure across the fuse holder. I assume the power has to be on, or does it measure the load from the connected components? I don't want to fry anything by allowing excessive amps through the meter. If the power has to be on, what connectors should I disconnect that would still allow the load to be measured?

#47 3 years ago

Can someone please confirm the wiring for the F2 rectifier?
The schematics show the +12v DC as red-black-black & the 11v AC return as red-yellow-yellow. I've got the +12v as red-black-black, the AC return as red-yellow-yellow, the ground has two white wires & the +11v AC has the two resistors & two red-black-black wires, one from the cap & the other going to A12-J6.
I'm not good at all with schematics, but it looks like the red-black-black from the cap should go to the 12v ground. Don't know about the one going to A12-J6. Is this correct?
Edit: For the F5 rectifier, I have the the +6v DC as red-green-green, the one clockwise to it as orange-brown-brown, the one clockwise to that as white & the AC has two black-black-black wires. It looks like the two AC tabs should be reversed, although this is the way it was wired & that fuse isn't blowing. Should they be reversed?

Edit #2: I'm trying to scan the schematics. I'll post it when I get it.

#48 3 years ago

Here's the portion of the schematics.

001 (resized).jpg

#49 3 years ago

Bump?
I think I'm going to put the wires the way I think the schematics is showing & see what else I can fry (hopefully nothing & it boots).

#50 3 years ago

Connect the wires the same as they were before.
You can "sanity check" your reading of the schematics by checking wire colors and connection on another BR.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/contact/
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
€ 8.40
$ 10.00
Cabinet - Sound/Speakers
Gweem's Mods
$ 10.00
Cabinet Parts
Ramp-O-Matic
From: $ 18.00
Apparel - Men
Pinside Shop
$ 299.00
Displays
Boston Pinball Company
1,000
Machine - For Sale
San Francisco, CA
$ 52.00
$ 89.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
The MOD Couple
$ 89.00
$ 79.99
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Lighted Pinball Mods
$ 9.99
Eproms
Matt's Basement Arcade
From: $ 24.00
$ 99.95
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Hookedonpinball.com
$ 48.00
Cabinet - Other
ModFather Pinball Mods
From: $ 42.00
Cabinet - Shooter Rods
ModFather Pinball Mods
There are 96 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.

Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside