(Topic ID: 77393)

System 80B CPU locked up Help Requested:


By coz6

5 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 42 posts
  • 10 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by myork82
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 5 years ago

Working on a Gottlib system 80B Gold Wings: Have been following PinWiki

Things I have done:
Ensure your game is providing a solid 5VDC power source - Done
Replace the orange electrolytic cap in the cabinet bottom if still original - Done
Examine the board for Alkaline damage. If present, clean up - Done used the "Dallas" Transistor method

Not sure how to do these tasks, or waiting to do after step one is completed: Tools I have multimeter and pulse meter

Ensure the reset section of the board is working. Pin 40 of the 6502 should begin "low", then after about 1/2 second, transition to "high"
Check the clock signals at the 6502
Check the IRQ signal at the 6502
Check the R/W (read/write) signal at the 6502
Check the address and data lines to see if they are pulsing
Feel each of the masked ROM chips at U2 and U3 as well as the 6532 RIOT chips at U4, U5, and U6. If the IC is too hot to touch, it has probably failed and should be replaced.
Check each of the 74XX chips using the procedure "here"
If original game ROM(s), replacement with 2716 is advised.

Thanks for any help

#2 5 years ago

I put those steps in, to establish an out line, but haven't been able to clean them up.

With 80B MPUs, the big problem is the daughter card and fractured solder joints. With power on, flex those joints some to see what it does.

What does the game do now?

If you haven't done PCB work before, a system 80 MPU sent the place to start. Consider a pro.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

#3 5 years ago

My pro refused to work on the game - he was a gamist (thought gold wings was a crap game) - other refused as well because of the bad corrosion, so I went with the dallas but I am at this point I can't get to the next trouble shooting step.

I have done MPU work before but this is my first real disaster, its also a good game to learn on.

Flexing daughter card did not change anything in attract mode - when the CPU is getting stuck it did not change that either by flexing it.

#4 5 years ago

Sounds like you may need to remove the Daughtboard and reflow solder on the connections between the Eprom socket and the daughter board.

The Genesis I am currently restoring was a no-op when I first bought it, it would do really really strange stuff. I went though all the grounds, cleaned connectors, checked caps, etc. Then I finally broke down and removed the daughter board and sure enough the solder joints were cold and making intermittent connection. Reflowed the solder on board and it has been solid since then

#5 5 years ago
Quoted from Ven:

Sounds like you may need to remove the Daughtboard and reflow solder on the connections between the Eprom socket and the daughter board.
The Genesis I am currently restoring was a no-op when I first bought it, it would do really really strange stuff. I went though all the grounds, cleaned connectors, checked caps, etc. Then I finally broke down and removed the daughter board and sure enough the solder joints were cold and making intermittent connection. Reflowed the solder on board and it has been solid since then

Ditto.
Your description sounds like a flakey daughter card connection.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

#6 5 years ago

Just pulled the board the daughter board was already reflowed by the prior owner, the reflow looks like good work from the prior owner. Not to say its not the issue - just providing info.

#7 5 years ago

Duplicate post

#8 5 years ago

A1 PROM socket or logic issue? Have you tried reseating the PROM yet? All PROM legs in the socket? (don't laugh, I've seen them miss or be folded up over the socket before)

Steve

Quoted from coz6:

Just pulled the board the daughter board was already reflowed by the prior owner, the reflow looks like good work from the prior owner. Not to say its not the issue - just providing info.

#9 5 years ago

Well steve - I reseated both the Prom's and guess what the behavior changed. The game now locks up at the start - sounds like a daughter board problem to me - time to reflow the old reflow.

#10 5 years ago
Quoted from coz6:

time to reflow the old reflow.

Suggestion is to remove all solder and resolder. Don't just heat up the solder that is already there.

#11 5 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Suggestion is to remove all solder and resolder. Don't just heat up the solder that is already there.

Thanks will do!

#12 5 years ago

I had to use a magnifier to see the small cracks in the joints on the Genesis I redid.

Yes definitely remove the old solder.

Make sure you are using a good flux core solder too.

#13 5 years ago
Quoted from Ven:

I had to use a magnifier to see the small cracks in the joints on the Genesis I redid.
Yes definitely remove the old solder.
Make sure you are using a good flux core solder too.

Thanks for the help - I'll post how it goes. It would be the highlight of my week to get this thing living again!

#15 5 years ago
Quoted from coz6:

Thanks for the help - I'll post how it goes. It would be the highlight of my week to get this thing living again!

Mine too. Takes a good friend to put the amount of sweat into this machine that he has.

#16 5 years ago

Great Plains Electronics makes a replacement daughterboard that mounts to two sockets. It's double-sided, so less likely to crack, and doesn't require a lot of work to take it out to inspect it.

I have one on one of my 80B games and I highly recommend it.

#17 5 years ago
Quoted from ts4z:

Great Plains Electronics makes a replacement daughterboard that mounts to two sockets. It's double-sided, so less likely to crack, and doesn't require a lot of work to take it out to inspect it.
I have one on one of my 80B games and I highly recommend it.

Ditto. Awesome product.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

#18 5 years ago

I also recommend the GPE replacement board where needed.

Steve

#19 5 years ago

Thanks guys - I will do this.

2 weeks later
#20 5 years ago

So I was able to get a known working CPU into the game, the same problem was showing up. So I checked the connector that provides power to the CPU, two of the contacts were rather suspect, I replaced them and verified that continuity existed.

Now the sound board does not have the LED working, the display is out, only one row of lights flashes. All other insert lights are locked on upon start along with coils until the fuse blows.

Where do I go from this point? Long live system 80!

#21 5 years ago
Quoted from TurboBengal:

Mine too. Takes a good friend to put the amount of sweat into this machine that he has.

Friends bumb threads - we're not friends I kid I kid.

#22 5 years ago

So this machine is on its last pinside prayer before it becomes a parts bin. Any input is genuinely appreciated!

1 week later
#23 5 years ago

All of the voltages check good? Start at the power supply and go from there. Check all the connectors. That is one of the biggest issues on any Sys 1 - 80b. I can not stress that enough.
I had a gold wings that was locking up and it was the daughterboard. I reflowed the joints and it fixed it. Also my sound board led went out and it was the connector at the power supply. Turn the game on a tap on the daughterboard on the known working CPU. They are so fragile it might not be working now. Mine got messed up just from the ride home. Changing the game prom could have stressed the joints on the bottom.

#24 5 years ago

Read this thread briefly... test with "known working" CPU was exelent idea.
Conclusion...problem IS something "out" CPU board

Question.. pressing reset button on SOUND board..."any" sound ?

(another Q ) is "there any life" on displays....?

#25 5 years ago

Briefly reading isn't "good"

DO NOT connect connector between CPU board and driver board until you reach
"good" boot-up !!!

Very dangerous "thing" on SYS 80 B is potentiometer on 5V regulator board !!

It MUST be removed , and replaced with "quality" one !!

#26 5 years ago

Check the manual and see if the flashing lights are connected to an auxiliary lamp driver board. If they are, they're not CPU controlled, and you can ignore them as far as getting the CPU running (they run independently of the CPU).

It sounds like the CPU isn't resetting. The CPU's reset signal goes to other boards (IIRC) and I would disconnet as much as you can until you can verify that the CPU is coming up. I would disconnect everything except power (especially the reset board) until the CPU is clearly booting correctly. Check voltage at the big capacitor near the power connector.

#27 5 years ago
Quoted from cro_pinman:

Briefly reading isn't "good"
DO NOT connect connector between CPU board and driver board until you reach
"good" boot-up !!!
Very dangerous "thing" on SYS 80 B is potentiometer on 5V regulator board !!
It MUST be removed , and replaced with "quality" one !!

Potentiometer was replaced - 5V was confirmed before connecting the board. No life on the display.

#28 5 years ago
Quoted from ts4z:

Check the manual and see if the flashing lights are connected to an auxiliary lamp driver board. If they are, they're not CPU controlled, and you can ignore them as far as getting the CPU running (they run independently of the CPU).
It sounds like the CPU isn't resetting. The CPU's reset signal goes to other boards (IIRC) and I would disconnet as much as you can until you can verify that the CPU is coming up. I would disconnect everything except power (especially the reset board) until the CPU is clearly booting correctly. Check voltage at the big capacitor near the power connector.

Will do thanks- btw reset board is already out of the chain. But thanks all for the advise I will do suggestions. What should the voltage be at the big capacitor? By the way it was already replaced (not the original orange one) should both sides have voltage?

#29 5 years ago
Quoted from myork82:

All of the voltages check good? Start at the power supply and go from there. Check all the connectors. That is one of the biggest issues on any Sys 1 - 80b. I can not stress that enough.
I had a Gold Wings that was locking up and it was the daughterboard. I reflowed the joints and it fixed it. Also my sound board led went out and it was the connector at the power supply. Turn the game on a tap on the daughterboard on the known working CPU. They are so fragile it might not be working now. Mine got messed up just from the ride home. Changing the game prom could have stressed the joints on the bottom.

Can you specify what voltages to check - I have a manual but well exactly. Thanks for the help.

#30 5 years ago

The main thing was the 5 volt but you have confirmed it. Was that at the power supply or at the cpu board. There should be a test point on the cpu somewhere I would think. If I had 80b schematics in front of me I could be more help. It still to me sounds like the daughterboard on the cpu. Also the I know 5 volt comes off of J2 on the power supply and feeds the sound board. My soundboard quit working and it was a burnt connector there.

Also I remember when I had daughterboard issues one row of lights flashed on the playfield and the game didn't boot.

#31 5 years ago

I had to turn the 5v down to 4.75before myn80b stopped locking up

#32 5 years ago
Quoted from pinballlizard:

I had to turn the 5v down to 4.75before myn80b stopped locking up

Tried that and the game was rebooting all the time. Thanks for the suggestion.

#33 5 years ago

Something is "wierd" for sure - does "good known " CPU makes ANY "life" on PF lamps ?
(of course WITH driver board connected )

Did you measure AC componnent on 5V?

#34 5 years ago

Since I can't see how it's "rebooting all the time", it's also possible that it isn't really a booting problem and it could be a tilt interrupt. That is, the tilt relay is turning off and on all the time. If this is the case, you may have a corrupt game PROM or a bad connection in the PROM socket. Do you have a different game PROM you can try in your game to see if there is any change?

I'm just throwing some more stuff out there that could be looked at.

Steve

Quoted from coz6:

Tried that and the game was rebooting all the time. Thanks for the suggestion.

#35 5 years ago

Also read couple times.... "rebooting all the time"... that was mine a reason to "recall good known CPU"

#36 5 years ago
Quoted from coz6:

By the way it was already replaced (not the original orange one) should both sides have voltage?

One side of the +5V bridge is connected to ground (the frame of the transformer unit). The other side is something like +12V DC. You can measure both across the bridge, or the terminals of the big cap on the transformer unit.

The 80B cap isn't orange from the factory, so just because it's not orange doesn't mean it's new. 1980s caps are bigger than 2014 caps. Replace with one that looks smaller than pictures in pinwiki.

I like the idea of bad ROMs. Try the known good CPU with known good ROMs in the wrong game (with the driver board disconnected).

Measure DC across the big cap on the CPU board near the power connector. You should get about 5V (a little less is OK). Measure AC across the same cap. You should get a near-zero, but not quite zero, reading.

#37 5 years ago

Thank a ton. A bunch of stuff to try out. How would one go about getting rom's I can burn but the smack down on files kills it a pm would be fine.

The capacitor is a replacement for sure tied in non factory type of way. But I will test non the less

#38 5 years ago

I can send you the Gold Wings game ROM file if you want to PM me your email address.

Steve

Quoted from coz6:

Thank a ton. A bunch of stuff to try out. How would one go about getting rom's I can burn but the smack down on files kills it a pm would be fine.
The capacitor is a replacement for sure tied in non factory type of way. But I will test non the less

#40 5 years ago

So I have been able to test for a good portion of these things - voltage was confirmed on the board to be 5.00 volts a little higher actually, Right at 5.12 DC the AC was close to zero but not zero. The capacitor was tested using a multimeter and charged up using ohms and uncharged using a voltage check. once again its a replacement, and also tested good using a capacitor checker.

The next question I have is with regards to the ground plugs, do these matter how they are connected? Or can they be rotated, if I change them and the behavior changes do I have a grounding issue. Calling the grounding plugs the 4 connectors that plug into the side of the main transformer.

Still need to test the eprom's but that will have to wait till tomorrow.

#41 5 years ago

You can rotate the ground plugs. You should, even. They are all interchangeable, as per the schematics.

If you have not done anything to the ground boards, you can be assured that there are cracked solder connections. However, if you're getting a nice smooth +5V on the CPU board (measure at the big filter cap on the MPU) with just the CPU board connected, I would suspect that the grounds are not your immediate problem.

#42 5 years ago

Yeah those ground boards at the transformer suck! I cut them off and went ring terminals per pinwiki.

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