(Topic ID: 86271)

Williams System (3-9) Club !

By mof

9 years ago


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  • 101 posts
  • 44 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 months ago by KJL
  • Topic is favorited by 44 Pinsiders

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There are 101 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 3.
#51 7 years ago

Anyone got a used system 7 MPU for sale? Not working is OK.

#52 7 years ago

What's the best way to adjust system 7 drops so that when they reset, they don't drop again? I have a few that drop after reset (sometimes)

I loosened both of the thin metal brackets a few screw turns so that the drops would slide easier up and down...

-mof

#54 7 years ago

Mof, it seems to me that problems with drops falling or not usually have to do with the metal leaf "spring" on the back of each drop target which holds each drop target up. If you remove the two screws holding that on you will be able to take it off and bend it slightly. You need to bend it in towards the target for your problem and out away from the target if your drops are not dropping when hit by the ball. If you get that adjustment right you can tighten the bracket again. I think loosening the bracket is usually a quick fix for the drops not dropping but if you get the leaf springs right you shouldn't need to have it loose.

#55 7 years ago
Quoted from solarvalue:

Mof, it seems to me that problems with drops falling or not usually have to do with the metal leaf "spring" on the back of each drop target which holds each drop target up. If you remove the two screws holding that on you will be able to take it off and bend it slightly. You need to bend it in towards the target for your problem and out away from the target if your drops are not dropping when hit by the ball. If you get that adjustment right you can tighten the bracket again. I think loosening the bracket is usually a quick fix for the drops not dropping but if you get the leaf springs right you shouldn't need to have it loose.

Thanks will give that a try
mof

#56 7 years ago

SOLVED

So I'm on a Williams system7 with GI working on the lower PF. Those bulbs test properly at 6vac.

The top half of the playfield has no GI, but the sockets (10 of them) all test out fine at 5.9 to 6.2 vac.

I'm stumped. How can 10 sockets possibly fail with good voltage?

-mof

Answer here:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/willams-system-7-gi-out-only-upper-playfield

3 months later
#57 7 years ago

Display mounting question for the Williams gurus:
pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/system-3-9-display-repair

7 months later
#58 6 years ago

Looking for help with an Alien Poker. Everything is working but the right flippers. They were working as of Sunday evening. Went to play after getting home Monday from work and they do nothing. I've tried reseating all the connectors. I repinned a few connectors. Reflowed solder on all connectors. Had the 40 pin and a few others completely replaced. I've cleaned the switch at the flipper. I know supposedly that the flipper system on this system 6 is supposed to be easy to figure out but I'm at a loss at this point. I'm by no means a pin repair expert though and any help that could be provided for a dummy would be great.

#59 6 years ago

I recently fixed my first flipper issue on HMM, so I will offer my expert advice . Check the wires connected to the flipper coils; I had couple broken solder connections which was causing one issue. Also check that the switch is making contact when the button is pressed. Good luck.

#60 6 years ago
Quoted from Tsskinne:

Everything is working but the right flippers.

-Do you have 28V or so at the right side coils ? Check pinwiki for best test procedure.
-If not is there a broken wire between one of the coils or EOS switches or bad fuse (I don't have a system 6 right now so don't remember the fuses)
-When you push the right cabinet switch do you get continuity from any right flipper coil lug to the plug at 2J2-1 or 2J2-2 (flipper ground returns)
-If not figure out where the wire is broken. Test flipper to cabinet switch and cabinet switch to 2J2-1 or 2J2-2 (one is for left, one is for right don't remember).

Pretty simple circuit from memory.
-Turn game on and the flipper coil should have power. Check that.
-Start game and the relay engages to connect 2J2-1 and 2J2-2 to solenoid ground on the driver board. So if left flipper works, this should work.
-Press flipper button and flipper ground lug on the coil should connect to 2J2-1 or 2J2-2 and therefore solenoid ground. causing the flipper to fire

Note that the EOS switch is involved so check that is working correctly.

1 year later
#61 5 years ago

Just repaired a system 6 CPU and thought I'd share the info. This is the same board I repaired about 3 yrs ago for running too fast, see https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/williams-sys-6-cpu-runs-too-fast

This time the game quit running while in attract mode and only G.I. was working on the machine. The diag LEDs indicated it was booting, and pressing the test button locked on the bottom LED reporting bad ram. Of course the ram was not the issue. The board was able to run Andre's test chip and everything passed, but would not run any game ROMs. I compared address line activity with a logic probe on several chips with a working board and found no activity at IC15 pins 10, 11, & 12.
Replacing IC15 - 74LS139 solved the problem.

1 year later
#62 3 years ago

I read about the controlled lamp upgrade for 3-7 boards, and that there are two options. One is replacing the transistor with a MOSFET and using 2 resistors per line to cut the draw down - the other is easier - replacing the transistor with a TIP-125(or 127) and adding in a 10k 1/4w resistor for the usually burned 27 ohm ones.

I've done it on Sys 6 boards without an issue, but can the same be done to a system 9 board since they're similar design/parts/etc? I see the mosfet option on Pinwiki, but like the TIP-125/127 solution better and would rather give that a go on the board.

#63 3 years ago

I have a Laser Ball that I recently purchased. Has been worked on already but I need to rebuild the flippers. Not having any luck finding the double stacked eos switch on the right flipper. Contacts look ugly. Not finding one so far. Anyone have any suggestions for who might have one? Pin Life is a no go.

20201021_191129 (resized).jpg20201021_191129 (resized).jpg
#64 3 years ago
Quoted from Hangernade:

I have a Laser Ball that I recently purchased. Has been worked on already but I need to rebuild the flippers. Not having any luck finding the double stacked eos switch on the right flipper. Contacts look ugly. Not finding one so far. Anyone have any suggestions for who might have one? Pin Life is a no go.
[quoted image]

I've got a (mostly complete) laserball playfield sitting around. If you can't find anything new and you dont mind used, PM me and I'll take a look for that switch. Chances are I have it..

#65 3 years ago

Id recommend buying the switch blades and contacts from Pinball Resource and either remaking it yourself, or take a regular EOS, transfer it to the larger existing switch body, and add in the new low current pieces. I did this on my Firepower and its worked like a charm

#66 3 years ago
Quoted from statictrance:

Id recommend buying the switch blades and contacts from Pinball Resource and either remaking it yourself, or take a regular EOS, transfer it to the larger existing switch body, and add in the new low current pieces. I did this on my Firepower and its worked like a charm

The extra switch on this stack is not a lane change switch, it is to activate the third flipper like on Flash, so these are both high current switches.

#67 3 years ago
Quoted from mwsmith:

The extra switch on this stack is not a lane change switch, it is to activate the third flipper like on Flash, so these are both high current switches.

Either way - PBR sells both low voltage and high voltage contacts and light/medium/heavy thickness blades. I fix a lot of EM/hugh current ones by taking a switch apart, replacing the contacts, and putting it back together.

#68 3 years ago

Pinball Resource has what I need and is shipping out. Part of the problem is I was looking at the switch wrong. I thought both were closed at rest but one is actually open. Need to see if I can verify adjustments. Saw on Vid's thread that flipper switch should be set to 1/8" open when flipper is held in up position. Does this mean that the open switch in the stack should be open 1/8" at rest?

#69 3 years ago

Nah, so long as the open one makes solid contact, you'll be fine. Id keep the gap minimal, at least 1/8" but can be a bit more. The smaller the gap, the closer the flippers will flip together. 1/8th is recommended so the switches don't arc across.

Also, its important the closed switch doesn't open till near the end of the flipper stroke, or you'll lose power to soon in the shot.

3 months later
#71 3 years ago

I stumbled on a badly labeled auction lot for an Algar apron if anyone is looking.

https://dotysauctionservice.hibid.com/lot/82947162/metal-advertisement/

11 months later
#72 2 years ago

Time for a thread bump. I rearranged my games room to get all my Sys7s together.

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6 months later
#73 1 year ago

Question -- what is the name of the 2-pin molex latching connector for the GI input? (So I can go order one on digikey or something) I see the circle and the half-dome shapes...

I have a hacked up power board from a recent pick-up, and I want to find original parts so I can swap a rottendog from another machine.

-mof

(here it is in a different position, instead of bottom right) on the rottendog board.)

20220727_2-pin-molex-GI-input (resized).jpg20220727_2-pin-molex-GI-input (resized).jpg
#74 1 year ago
Quoted from mof:

Question -- what is the name of the 2-pin molex latching connector for the GI input? (So I can go order one on digikey or something) I see the circle and the half-dome shapes...
I have a hacked up power board from a recent pick-up, and I want to find original parts so I can swap a rottendog from another machine.
-mof
(here it is in a different position, instead of bottom right) on the rottendog board.)
[quoted image]

I think: D Latch Lock Molex

#75 1 year ago
Quoted from Cheddar:

D Latch Lock Molex

Thanks

I'm doing some searches with that search term, still not seeing the original pin shapes from the 1980s

#77 1 year ago

those shapes look right!!! nice sleuthing skills! I'll try em out.

#79 1 year ago

Well, asked Tilt Graphics if their Apollo13 GameBlades would fit in a Space Shuttle and they had no idea.
Anyone know if they would?

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#81 1 year ago
Quoted from Mr_Outlane:

Well, asked Tilt Graphics if their Apollo13 GameBlades would fit in a Space Shuttle and they had no idea.
Anyone know if they would?
[quoted image]

I would imagine the Apollo 13 playfield probably sits a bit deeper in the cabinet. Thus, you wouldn't see as much of the art blade with them in Space Shuttle. I don't know if that is a big deal or not. This is just a guess though.

#82 1 year ago
Quoted from Clytor:

I would imagine the Apollo 13 playfield probably sits a bit deeper in the cabinet. Thus, you wouldn't see as much of the art blade with them in Space Shuttle. I don't know if that is a big deal or not. This is just a guess though.

It is possible to lower the playfield, but I'm not that ambitious!

1 week later
#83 1 year ago

I have a project Laser Ball machine that wasn't booting, only GI lights. Some corrision on the mpu and driver boards so I put in a new Kohout set to replace those two and the game now boots into attract mode and I can add credits and start a game but the flippers are the only solenoids that will activate. Also not getting any sound. Apologies for the basic questions but would anyone have any recommendations on what to check next? Thanks!

6 months later
#85 1 year ago

More info, please!

#86 1 year ago

Prototype sys 3-7 mpu/driver. This is most creative i've gotten so far on a recreation. I put the connectors where they should go and then free formed the rest of it just putting parts where I thought they would route easily at. I changed up a lot of the circuitry to simplify things like using eight bit chips with output disables (way less 7408s) that probably didn't exist in 1978. Test digit with discreet LEDs . There is a spiderweb on the back to fix the all the dumb mistakes I made on the first try, but it works.

I created circuit boards to build a test fixture (lamp tester, switch tester, sol, power distribution, etc) that came in the mail today. I slopped a bunch of polyurethane on a piece of plywood I am going to use to put a test fixture together soon. Dreading doing the wiring.... Anyone have spare wire harness set that goes from the sys 3-6 master display board to each four satellite displays?

1 month later
#87 10 months ago

Trying to get a System 4 CPU to boot. Anyone have a spare System 3 or 4 CPU board that boots that they would be willing to part with? Thinking it will be easier to analyze side by side and/or part swap.

#88 10 months ago
Quoted from joetechbob:

Trying to get a System 4 CPU to boot. Anyone have a spare System 3 or 4 CPU board that boots that they would be willing to part with? Thinking it will be easier to analyze side by side and/or part swap.

Have you tried these test ROMs?

https://pincoder.ca

You should be able to get things running there without the need of another board..

#89 10 months ago
Quoted from pincoder:

Have you tried these test ROMs?
https://pincoder.ca
You should be able to get things running there without the need of another board..

I'm running test ROMs and the CPU isn't starting. Reset circuit is only hitting 4V and clock generator wave looks a bit saw-toothy. Processor tested good (popped it into another game). Want to scope out a working board to get a better idea of how everything should measure out. In any case, have a couple of components I'm waiting on from digikey that I hope improves the situation.

#90 10 months ago
Quoted from joetechbob:

I'm running test ROMs and the CPU isn't starting. Reset circuit is only hitting 4V and clock generator wave looks a bit saw-toothy. Processor tested good (popped it into another game). Want to scope out a working board to get a better idea of how everything should measure out. In any case, have a couple of components I'm waiting on from digikey that I hope improves the situation.

Interesting. Sounds safe to assume you've already tested the obvious.. 5V and 12V power. Keep us posted

#91 10 months ago
Quoted from pincoder:

Interesting. Sounds safe to assume you've already tested the obvious.. 5V and 12V power. Keep us posted

Yep, bench testing with switcher--5.2VDC at 6800 Vcc. Reset starts low and snaps up to and stays at 4VDC. I found a 2N4403 that looks to be bad in reset circuit but didn't have any on hand. On my scope while inspecting address lines it seems to bounce very rapidly eg from fixed high to momentary waveforms so my theory is it's randomly resetting as reset isn't quite high enough. That said, I tried forcing pin 40 to +5VDC and it still seemed to be noisy on address lines...So wondering if clock isn't clean enough? I pulled RAM and PIA chips just in case but no change.

I grabbed a battery damaged System 3 CPU board off of eBay for cheap--figured worst case can harvest clock generator ic if necessary. But hoping CPU will come up so I can cross compare the two boards.

#92 10 months ago
Quoted from joetechbob:

Yep, bench testing with switcher--5.2VDC at 6800 Vcc. Reset starts low and snaps up to and stays at 4VDC. I found a 2N4403 that looks to be bad in reset circuit but didn't have any on hand. On my scope while inspecting address lines it seems to bounce very rapidly eg from fixed high to momentary waveforms so my theory is it's randomly resetting as reset isn't quite high enough. That said, I tried forcing pin 40 to +5VDC and it still seemed to be noisy on address lines...So wondering if clock isn't clean enough? I pulled RAM and PIA chips just in case but no change.
I grabbed a battery damaged System 3 CPU board off of eBay for cheap--figured worst case can harvest clock generator ic if necessary. But hoping CPU will come up so I can cross compare the two boards.

Ive seen the clock waveforms on a good board and I have to say they don't look very clean. If I get some time this weekend I'll send you a pic.

#93 10 months ago
Quoted from pincoder:

Ive seen the clock waveforms on a good board and I have to say they don't look very clean. If I get some time this weekend I'll send you a pic.

Thanks! Here's what I measured:

PXL_20230422_005741748.MP (resized).jpgPXL_20230422_005741748.MP (resized).jpg

1 week later
#94 10 months ago
Quoted from joetechbob:

Thanks! Here's what I measured:
[quoted image]

Interesting.. Here's what I got on each pin of the xtal, vs. the cleanliness of the 5V line..

Xtal (resized).pngXtal (resized).png
#95 10 months ago

After coming across some shuffle bowler 6 digit displays, I was looking for info of how to test them in a williams 3-6 pin - with the hope of swapping the glass into a system 6 pinball. I found info for the 7 digit displays (ribbon cable) but my google fu turned up no info on testing the 6 digit edge connectors from a shuffle alley. The connectors are not the same pinout, so here is what I came up and I made a video:

Cleaner solution would be to use a blank edge connector (arcade suppliers sell them) instead of an old display board, but I was going for 'free' since I had no idea if any of the displays were good. Out of the five, three looked pretty good, one had minimal pimples, and the last was very pimply.

2 months later
#96 8 months ago

What's a good way to test RAM on these boards - looking for all kinds of methods.

Want to know how to look at RAM with logic probe, DMM, oscope, through troubleshooting rom.. the gamut.

#97 7 months ago
Quoted from pb456:

What's a good way to test RAM on these boards - looking for all kinds of methods.
Want to know how to look at RAM with logic probe, DMM, oscope, through troubleshooting rom.. the gamut.

There are some good RAM and CMOS tests in this software package (free):

https://pincoder.ca

If you dont have a chip programmer and a chip, this adapter contains tests for all Williams system 3-7 games:

https://pincoder.ca/index.php/2020/07/10/adapter-2020-06-23-0506/

As these tests run repeatedly, and individually, and test every address on each RAM/CMOS chip you can watch signals on the scope, or logic probe.

4 months later
#98 3 months ago

So I have gotten back 4-5 mpus with the display strobe decoder chips blown out. It was a head scratcher about what was killing the chip. I finally figured out what is going on with the help a customer and his picture.... 1J2 and 1J6 are keyed the same. 1J2 is power input to the MPU. 1J6 is display digit strobe output. When you reverse those two plugs you shorting out the decoder chip and putting 12v on one output. Chip craps out and sometimes goes bang.

Looks like system 3-6 had series resistors between 1J6 and the decoder chip that got deleted at system 7. I think it would be a good idea to put them back...

Why the heck did WMS key the plugs the same! Seems quite ridiculous they had seven good options of where to key and they repeated the power input plug pattern with a nearby plug.

#99 3 months ago

I Haven't worked on a System 7 display problems for probably 10 years so hoping for some help

I have had a Barracora for a few years that worked great until recently the player 2 and player 4 displays don't come on at startup. If I play an hour or so they might come on also but not always.

The ball credit display does the same but with the middle 2 digits out at first starting to come on after a while.

Looking at the schematics I cant tell what these all have in common except display 2 and 4 both are strobe 10-16. But the credits/ball in play are strobe 1 and 9.

So far I have:

Moved displays around and problem stays with player 2 and 4
Thinking it could be strobes I swapped the CPU with my backup and the problem is still there so its either connectors or the master display
For +90 and -100, I have +58V and -66V at the pins to the glass on both working and non-working displays.

If I dont get a place to start from this post, I will repin the connectors to the CPU, anyone know where to get replacement edge connectors for the master display. I was hoping they would be like traditional connectors but of course not.

Any help appreciated. Pic of current issue showing player 2 and 4 as well as the missing digits on the credit/match display attached. NOTE the master display is missing R15 so I understand why the commas are out on 3 and 4.

IMG_9634 (resized).PNGIMG_9634 (resized).PNG
#100 3 months ago
Quoted from KJL:

I Haven't worked on a System 7 display problems for probably 10 years so hoping for some help
I have had a Barracora for a few years that worked great until recently the player 2 and player 4 displays don't come on at startup. If I play an hour or so they might come on also but not always.
The ball credit display does the same but with the middle 2 digits out at first starting to come on after a while.
Looking at the schematics I cant tell what these all have in common except display 2 and 4 both are strobe 10-16. But the credits/ball in play are strobe 1 and 9.
So far I have:
Moved displays around and problem stays with player 2 and 4
Thinking it could be strobes I swapped the CPU with my backup and the problem is still there so its either connectors or the master display
For +90 and -100, I have +58V and -66V at the pins to the glass on both working and non-working displays.
If I dont get a place to start from this post, I will repin the connectors to the CPU, anyone know where to get replacement edge connectors for the master display. I was hoping they would be like traditional connectors but of course not.
Any help appreciated. Pic of current issue showing player 2 and 4 as well as the missing digits on the credit/match display attached. NOTE the master display is missing R15 so I understand why the commas are out on 3 and 4.

Did you check the voltage at the power supply (3J5)?
Maybe the caps need to be replaced.
The lower voltage may also be because of the switching of the displays.
Exchange the displays from player one to player two and see what happens.

If I look closely I can see the 5 in the 100000 glow in display 4.
Outgassing?

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