(Topic ID: 250451)

System 11 Whirlwind Boot Up Issue


By loren3233

10 months ago



Topic Stats

  • 30 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 9 months ago by loren3233
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

There have been 9 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

0917191129 (resized).jpg
0917190900 (resized).jpg
0914191403 (resized).jpg
0830191214 (resized).jpg
0830191214a (resized).jpg
0831190807_HDR (resized).jpg
cpu sys11.jpg
4baafb02f2a678adb4d7ee89d1e9e534cf8e342e (resized).jpg
0830191904 (resized).jpg

#1 10 months ago

Hello Everyone,

I have been trying to figure out an ongoing issue I have been having with a Whirlwind. I use this game on route, though it is home right now as I have been trying to troubleshoot the issue for a couple weeks.

Symptom: about every two weeks to a month I am notified that the game is eating balls. When I arrive I find a ball or two locked in the Cellar. Cellar coil will not fire, as well as drop targets will not reset to the up position and sling coils will not fire. Checking fuses I find F4 and F1 blown. If I replace both fuses game works consistently for another two weeks to a month before the same fuses blow again.

I have had a tough time figuring out what is causing this issue and am looking for a bit of direction on something that I may have stumbled across that may be causing this but I have no idea where to start.
What I have noticed is the game sometime does not turn on when powered up, all I get is GI to turn on. If I turn the power switch off then back on it will boot up normally (5V & Blanking lite and Diagnostics flashing) but what happened next after cycling power cycles came to a surprise. I booted the game on and heard a loud pop/knock and it sounded as though a coil or two locked on (not sure as play field was down) and then I lost F4 and F1 again. The business turns the game off every night and back on in the morning so my assumption is this is why I am randomly having this issue.

Doing a bit of research it may be the relay sticking on the Aux Power Board but it sounds as though this would be very rare. I also have read that it may be one of the bridges on the Aux power board but they test fine. I have removed the Aux Power Board, CPU Board and Backbox Interconnect Board checking them for cold soldier joints and none were found. Also checked for shorts, tested switches, coil diodes, power switch on bottom of cab and have not been able to find any obvious issue that would contribute to this.

Question is what would be causing this to happen randomly on boot up? Where should I look?

Thank you for any assistance and sorry for this being long but I wanted to try to explain the symptom in detail.

Loren

#2 10 months ago
Quoted from loren3233:

Question is what would be causing this to happen randomly on boot up? Where should I look?

Check the 5 volts test point on the CPU. What do you get?

#3 10 months ago

Hello Grumpy,

I get 5.1V at TP2

#4 10 months ago
Quoted from loren3233:

Hello Grumpy,
I get 5.1V at TP2

Good.
You may want to replace C-30 on the CPU and see if that helps. Also when the board is out reflow the solder on the header pins of 1J-17.

#5 10 months ago

Thank you Grumpy and can do. Should it be replaced with the same voltage capacitor? There is a 25V on the board, looking at the manual it calls for a 10V at C30.

Also since I have the board out should I replace R82-R89 ceramic resistors? There seems to be a good amount of heat underneath those resistors.

#6 10 months ago
Quoted from loren3233:

There is a 25V on the board, looking at the manual it calls for a 10V at C30.

Sounds like someone has already replaced this. Then try the header pins.

Quoted from loren3233:

should I replace R82-R89 ceramic resistors?

You can, I like to use flame proof version and leave a good bit of space in between resistor and board for better cooling.

#7 10 months ago

Hello,

You may want to remove knocker coil and see if the coil wrapper is worn allowing the occasiinal ground out when a free game is won. The fact that 2 balls are in the cellar after power up may suggest player won a game and the coil shorted when in multiball causing the game to end when 2 balls entered cellar.
Other issues could be a flaky ac select relay.
Power up issue seems seperate as if game has 2 balls in celar the games fuses blew when being played.
If a fuse blew on power up the knockee coil could still be suspect. Its common for the knocker to pulse on power up with system 11,s ive seen.

#8 10 months ago

Thank you pinballplus and good point.
So I was looking at the back of the CPU board at C30 to see if the capacitor had been replaced before due to the different voltage per the manual. It appears it has not (see pic, looks like original), so not sure why a 25V capacitor is on the board when the manual calls for a 10V capacitor.
BUT, when I was looking at the back of the board at C30 I noticed that R53 & R54 resistors are contacting each other on the backside of the board (again, see pic) look just right of the positive sign of C30.
Do either of you think this could be part of the issue going on here?

0830191904 (resized).jpg
#9 10 months ago
Quoted from loren3233:Do either of you think this could be part of the issue going on here?

No. These are connected on the top side of the board too. But I have never seen this before.

4baafb02f2a678adb4d7ee89d1e9e534cf8e342e (resized).jpg
#10 10 months ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

These are connected on the top side of the board too.

yes, that appears to be safe, but maybe cut it anyway.
cpu sys11.jpg

#11 10 months ago

C30 looks to not been changed before. How about a picture of the top side showing C30?

#12 10 months ago

Following.

#13 10 months ago

Here is the front side if C30.
Again, it looks original (especially from the backside of the board) and not sure if I should replace C30 with a 25V or a 10V as the manual calls for a 10V. As you can see from the picture there is a 25V at C30.

0831190807_HDR (resized).jpg
#14 10 months ago

It is original and replace it with a 25v. Higher voltage is ok. Always best to keep the same uf.

#15 10 months ago

Sounds like a plan, I will get these parts ordered through Ed at Great Plains and get them installed next week when they arrive. I will make sure to post back the results. Thank you all for the direction. I am fairly new to trying to figure these more difficult issues out but can do fairly well with the easier type problems. So much to learn with this hobby which is fun and challenging.

Thank you all for the help,

Loren

#16 10 months ago

I looked at Great Plains and was unable to find a 22uf 25V capacitor. Great Plains does have a 22uf 50V which I believe would work but I would rather ask the group if this would suffice?
Great Plains part# CEA-22uf-50v-RMD

Also the ceramic resistors R82-R89 on the board are 27ohm 5% 5 watt resistors but the manual calls for 27ohm 5% 2 watt resistors. Again assumption on my part but shouldn't I just replace these with the 5 watt as that is what it currently on the board?
Great Plains part# RC5W-27-SQT

#17 10 months ago

I would even recap the power supply. You can locate the parts individually.
https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=W12246-PEC-KIT

#18 10 months ago
Quoted from loren3233:

Great Plains part# CEA-22uf-50v-RMD

sure but it is a bit of an overkill since it is about 5x the original part.

#19 10 months ago
Quoted from loren3233:

I looked at Great Plains and was unable to find a 22uf 25V capacitor. Great Plains does have a 22uf 50V which I believe would work but I would rather ask the group if this would suffice?
Great Plains part# CEA-22uf-50v-RMD
Also the ceramic resistors R82-R89 on the board are 27ohm 5% 5 watt resistors but the manual calls for 27ohm 5% 2 watt resistors. Again assumption on my part but shouldn't I just replace these with the 5 watt as that is what it currently on the board?
Great Plains part# RC5W-27-SQT

Yes, 5watt are ok to replace the 2watt as they would just handle the heat better. Though, they don't fail often. Can you post a picture of them? I don't normally replace any unless they fall out of the 27ohm 5% range, which a good one can very from 25.7 to 28.3 ohms, even when they are new. 2% would be better ones, but also will cost a bit more too as the tolerances get tighter.

#20 10 months ago
Quoted from loren3233:

Also since I have the board out should I replace R82-R89 ceramic resistors? There seems to be a good amount of heat underneath those resistors.

Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Though, they don't fail often.

I concur with PinballManiac40. These don't fail often (if at all).

If you're worried about the heat ... have you considered http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_System_9_-_11#Using_MOSFETs_in_the_Lamp_Matrix_Circuitry ?

#21 10 months ago

Here are pictures of the front and back of the CPU. Only reason why I am thinking about changing the ceramic resistors (R82-R89) is to get them higher off of the board to reduce the heat damage.
I was unaware of the pinwiki fix.

0830191214 (resized).jpg0830191214a (resized).jpg
#22 10 months ago

I would say that MPU had heavy usage, far as being on quite a long time.

2 weeks later
#23 10 months ago

Small update, power supply has new capacitors and should be ready to go.
I am waiting for the new flame proof resistors for R82-R89 and also the C30 22uF 25V capacitor from digikey. Parts should be delivered on Monday.

0914191403 (resized).jpg
#24 10 months ago

Did the coils lock on the instant you turned the game on or after the game booted up?

The blanking circuit should prevent any coils from firing until the CPU is running. Could it be the blanking circuit is flaky? I would start by replacing SR20 (pullup resistor for the blanking signal).

#25 9 months ago

Does it matter which way the flame proof resistors are installed on the board at R82-R89? Color band on a specific side (see pic)?
Looking generically online it seems it does not matter. I would like to confirm before I install 8 of these on the board.
Also the capacitor at C30 has been replaced as well as the 1J17 header pins (I figured the board was out so might as well replace those header pins).

0917190900 (resized).jpg
#26 9 months ago
Quoted from loren3233:

Looking generically online it seems it does not matter. I would like to confirm before I install 8 of these on the board.

There is no direction for resistors.

#28 9 months ago

Resistors are installed in place of the ceramic one's that were burning the board. Both boards installed and up and running again. Will try to repeat the issue I was having but hopefully will not see it again.
Game will get a good test on October 5th at our annual pinball party & the following weekend at Pinagogo. I will post back after Pinagogo and advise everyone if the issue persists or went away.

Thank you for the direction and now off to my other two issues, T2 & TFTC.

0917191129 (resized).jpg
#29 9 months ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

Did the coils lock on the instant you turned the game on or after the game booted up?
The blanking circuit should prevent any coils from firing until the CPU is running. Could it be the blanking circuit is flaky? I would start by replacing SR20 (pullup resistor for the blanking signal).

I am not 100% sure that the coil/coils would lock on (the play field was down). This thing is so random, like mentioned above the game would do fine on route for two weeks to a month before I would get a call and find out two fuses were blown.
The coils never locked on (that I witnessed). At boot up and during game play I have never seen the coils lock on.

4 weeks later
#30 9 months ago

Wanted to update this thread and have it noted I have not had any issue since changing the C30 capacitor and header pins at 1J-17.

The game was played at my Oktoberfest party two weeks ago and just last weekend it got a three day workout at the Pinagogo pinball show. No blown F4 or F1 to this point and I believe the problem has been rectified.

Thank you to those who assisted in this process and I hope this post can help others at some point.

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
3,500 (OBO)
Machine - For Sale
Commack, NY
$ 12.00
Electronics
Yorktown Arcade Supply
$ 10.00
Cabinet - Sound/Speakers
Gweem's Mods
From: $ 40.00
Cabinet - Other
Rock Custom Pinball
Trade
Machine - For Trade
Massapequa, NY
From: $ 18.00
Apparel - Men
Pinside Shop
3,800 (Firm)
Machine - For Sale
West Greenwich, RI
From: $ 20.00
Cabinet - Other
Rock Custom Pinball
Wanted
Machine - Wanted
Millsboro, DE

Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside