System 11 Solenoid Issues (Cyclone)


By PDX_Pinball

8 months ago


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  • Latest reply 8 months ago by GRUMPY
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#1 8 months ago

My playfield swap has turned working flashers into mostly non-working flashers. My cyclone has 8 solenoids each with an 'A' and a 'C' side. All 8 on the 'A' side are working. The problem is with the C side, but frustratingly a few are working. Here's the breakdown:

1C: not working (Left Ferris Wheel(p) and Jackpot(b) flashers)
2C: not working (Right Ferris Wheel(p) and Teeth(b) flashers)
3C: Top Mid(p) flasher working, but Left eye(b) flasher not working
4C: Cats(p) flasher working, but lwr fireworks(b) flasher not working
5C: not working (Ducks(p) and Right fireworks(b) flashers)
6C: not working (Ferris Wheel(p) flashers)
7C: not working (Cyclone(p) and R eye(b) flashers)
8C: not working (Spookhouse(p) and Left fireworks(b) flashers)

Since the A&C sides have the same driver transistor and the A side is working, can I correctly assume its not the driver? The C side all uses the black wire, but since some are working could I'm not sure if that is the issue? Do they go in a chain in numerical order? If so, wouldn't 1C and 2C be working if the break is after 4C?

I'm at a loss as to how to start troubleshooting this, hopefully someone can lead me down the right path to get started?

solenoids (resized).JPG

#2 8 months ago

Ensure your Solenoid 12 driver (A/C select relay) is engaging.

Do you hear the relay "click" on solenoid 12 in test? Or when switching from A to C cycling through the cool test.

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

#3 8 months ago
Quoted from PDX_Pinball:

can I correctly assume its not the driver?

Yes.

Quoted from PDX_Pinball:
Do they go in a chain in numerical order?

No.

Quoted from Borygard:
Ensure your Solenoid 12 driver (A/C select relay) is engaging.

It is because 3C and 4C are working.

Quoted from PDX_Pinball:
I'm at a loss as to how to start troubleshooting

Just pick one to start with, put game in solenoid test and lock on a flasher that doesn't work. Check orange wire on flasher bulb socket for a pulsing 30 volts dc. Then check the other wire on the socket for voltage, no volts = bad bulb. If this is good then check for voltage at the resistor board for this bulb, wire from the bulb should be the same color on the resistor board. Check for voltage on both sides of the resistor. Voltage only on one side = bad resistor. No voltage at the resistor check for cracked header pins on the resistor board. If this is all good then the same colored wire goes to the aux power supply on J5. Check for cracked solder joints on the header pins. And lastly it goes thru the larger diodes D-31 thru D-46 on the aux power supply, a diode could have burnt open causing the bulb to not flash.

#4 8 months ago

Thanks, I'll check when I get home. I did have a blown j5 fuse on the aux power board which I replaced. It hasn't blown again. Not sure if that is a clue?

#5 8 months ago
Quoted from PDX_Pinball:

I did have a blown j5 fuse on the aux power board

That fuse is for 50 volts coils, I think it is the left flipper coil. Most of the time a maladjusted EOS switch.

#6 8 months ago

So I started with 5C, ducks flasher. I was reading 40v on one side, nothing on the other. Put in a new bulb, it flashed twice and burnt out. Did that 2 more times, each time the bulb flashes twice then burns out.

This is supposed to be 30v, is it even possible to be getting 40v? Or do my dmm skills just suck? At least a few other flashers appear to be 40v too.

#7 8 months ago
Quoted from PDX_Pinball:

Or do my dmm skills just suck?

I think there fine.

Quoted from PDX_Pinball:
is it even possible to be getting 40v
I will check to see how this can happen.

Quoted from PDX_Pinball:

I was reading 40v on one side

Was this steady or did it pulse with the A/C relay as it should?

#8 8 months ago

For 5C ducks there are two bulbs on the p/f, can you take a pic showing both bulbs at the same time with a label on each so I can see if they are wired in parallel or series? Also did you rewire any thing with these bulbs?

#9 8 months ago

I snapped some pics on the way out the door this morning. One flasher is under the pf and I did not touch the wiring. The other flasher is on top of the pf and I did have to remove and re-solder when I installed the new pf. I think I did the re-wire correctly (also attaching old pic I took before tear-down). When I checked the voltage I could only check one side as the bulb was dead. I thought it was a steady 40v and not pulsing, but I couldn't check both sides as the bulb was burning out so quickly. But... the bulb did flash twice before it burned out which leads me to believe it was pulsing.

underpf (resized).jpeg

toppf (resized).jpeg

oldwiring (resized).jpeg

#10 8 months ago

I should add, on the under pf pic, the orange and black/green wires running off to the right go up to the top of pf flasher

#11 8 months ago

Bulbs sockets are in parallel as they should be. Did you have any of the boards out of the back box? Can you put the game in solenoid test and lock it on A/C relay, check the orange wire for dc volts again. Does it pulse or is it a steady voltage?

#12 8 months ago

I did have the boards out. FYI the power supply is a new xpin board and the aux per supply is from pinballpcb. The voltage is pulsing.

#13 8 months ago
Quoted from PDX_Pinball:

aux per supply is from pinballpcb.

Was this board in the game before the P/F swap? Are the jumpers W4 and W5 installed correctly.

#14 8 months ago

Disconnect J11 on the aux power supply. Turn on game and measure the voltage on J11 pin 1 and 4. Then check pin 9. What do you get?

#15 8 months ago

This board was in there before the pf swap. There is a jumper at w4 but not at w5. But doesn't look like the was ever a jumper there.

J11... Pin1 is 40v, pin 9 40v, pin 4 my meter jumps all around like there is no DC. (I tested in attract mode)

#16 8 months ago

I can't find any pics of the resistor board for this game. Can you take one and post it?

#17 8 months ago

Here's a pic, tough place to get a photo. Thanks for the help!!!

resistor (resized).jpg

#18 8 months ago

I don't know which connector with the black wires goes to the lamps. That being said you should disconnect both connectors with the black wires. Install a new bulb and retest it. The bulb should not work, but if you have pinched the wire somewhere and it grounded the lamp will light with out the dropping resistor and burn out quickly.

#19 8 months ago

I disconnected the black wires at the resistor board, replaced the bulb in the cats flasher and it didn't work as expected (the two working flashers didn't work either).

Perhaps I could be more self-sufficient if I fully understood how these flashers work? Please, help me out here:

1. Each flasher has an orange and black wire. What voltage should the orange wire have when not flashing? How about the black wire?

2. Is the orange wire one long wire that runs to each flasher (like GI)?

3. When it's time for the bulb to flash, does the game ground the black wire? Or is it giving the black wire power and then grounding every half second to create the flash?

4. How does the resistor board play in to this? Is it dropping the voltage from the aux power board? If a resistor is bad, would it cause too much power to go to the flashers and burn them out?

I tried to find an article that explains all this but no luck.

I just find it weird that two of my flashers work. The others all "work", but they burn out the bulb after two flashes. it's like they are getting too much power (but not stuck on) making me wonder if the resistor board is the problem???

#20 8 months ago

All great questions...

Quoted from PDX_Pinball:

...
1. Each flasher has an orange and black wire. What voltage should the orange wire have when not flashing? How about the black wire?

The way the A/C relay works is it cuts power to the flashers when they aren't being lit. So you should get no power to the orange or black wire if the game isn't engaging the flashers.

Quoted from PDX_Pinball:

2. Is the orange wire one long wire that runs to each flasher (like GI)?

Yes, basically.

Quoted from PDX_Pinball:

3. When it's time for the bulb to flash, does the game ground the black wire? Or is it giving the black wire power and then grounding every half second to create the flash?

The black wire is grounded by the CPU when the flasher is suppose to light. At the same time, the CPU is engaging the A/C relay to apply 25V to the flashers.

Quoted from PDX_Pinball:

4. How does the resistor board play in to this? Is it dropping the voltage from the aux power board? If a resistor is bad, would it cause too much power to go to the flashers and burn them out?

The resistors reduce the current to the bulb. If they were shorted they could reduce the life of the bulb.

If you're getting 40V to the bulbs, something isn't right. Exacty which jumpers, W1 through W5, are present on the Aux Driver Board?

What is the voltage at the flashers that are working properly?

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

#21 8 months ago
Quoted from PDX_Pinball:

What voltage should the orange wire have when not flashing? How about the black wire?

Orange wire comes from the A/C relay. When the relay is turned on power is supplied on the orange wire. Manual says 25 volts but is more like 36-37 volts. The orange wire is daisy chained to flashers 1c-8c. All other flashers are powered by a red wire and is always powered. The black wire then goes to the resistor board, thru a resistor and then to the cpu board where it is grounded by a TIP transistor.

Quoted from PDX_Pinball:
it's like they are getting too much power (but not stuck on) making me wonder if the resistor board is the problem???

I have not seen a cement resistor drop in resistance before, but anything is possible. If the resistance drops the current flow thru the bulbs will go up and they will burn out.

#22 8 months ago

I put the game in attract mode. The working flashers show 40v at orange and black wires. The non-working flashers show 40v at the orange wire and nothing at the black.

This is really odd if the flashers should have no power when not engaged???

Resized_20170217_214404 (resized).jpeg

#23 8 months ago
Quoted from PDX_Pinball:

This is really odd if the flashers should have no power when not engaged???

The cpu energizes the A/C most of the time, some game the flashers turn on in attract mode.

Quoted from PDX_Pinball:
The non-working flashers show 40v at the orange wire and nothing at the black.

Is this because the bulb filament is burnt out. Install a good bulb and you should have voltage on both wires.

#24 8 months ago

Good call on the filament. I put a good bulb in and got 40v on both wires. I went into coil test and locked it on a non-working flasher. I checked both a good flasher and a different non-working flasher. Both had 40v. Seems like even when my flashers aren't engaged, they are getting 40v.

#25 8 months ago

What does the 25V test point on the Aux Driver Board measure?

Remove the resistor board and inspect it. Are any of the resistors jumpered over? Do the resistors measure correctly?

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

#26 8 months ago

The 25v test point is reading 40v which is consistent with what I'm reading at the flash lamps. I pulled the resistor board and looks good from a visual inspection. As for measuring correctly, can I do that with both leads attached to the board or do I have to remove the resistor?

#27 8 months ago

Is there anyway to know which resistor reduces the orange flash lamp power wire? It would seem that is the one I need to test.

#28 8 months ago
Quoted from PDX_Pinball:

Is there anyway to know which resistor reduces the orange flash lamp power wire?

The resistor board is reducing the power from wire the black/color wire. So you were working on 5c flashers which is black/green wire. Look at the connectors on the flash board for the black/green wire, which pin is it. Remove the connector and check for continuity from this pin to the resistor leads on the board. Now you know which resistor it is, then check the resistance of this resistor and compare it to a working flasher circuit resistor.

Quoted from PDX_Pinball:
can I do that with both leads attached to the board or do I have to remove the resistor?

Check the resistance which the connectors removed from the board.

#29 8 months ago

All of the black wires at J3 on the resistor board map like this:

P1 = R1 = 1C (pin 1 goes to resistor 1 which is solenoid 1C)
P2=R2=2C
P3=key
P4=R3=3C (working)
P5=R4=4C (was working*)
P6=R5=5C
P7=R6=6C (working)
P8=R7=7C
P9=R8=8C
* 4c, cats flasher was working until I accidentally grounded the black wire lug (with resistor board out), caused a spark, burned out bulb. Put board back in and a new bulb and now its not working

Since all of these black wires go thru different resistors I have a hard time beiieving they could all fail.

Should I be checking the CPU for whatever controls the orange power wire? If it's only supposed to have power when the flasher is engaged (and mine appear to always have power) could that be the problem?

#30 8 months ago

Wait, I wasn't thinking clearly. When the A/C relay is on A, my orange wire has no power. When set to C, every flasher has the 40v which makes sense as it's in a chain. This orange wire is not CPU controlled, it's always 40v and either off (A side) or on (C side) as controlled by solenoid 12. What activates the bulb is the black/color wire.

Question: what exactly does this black wire do. Does it provide power? Does it go to ground? Does it do both?

#31 8 months ago
Quoted from PDX_Pinball:

Since all of these black wires go thru different resistors I have a hard time beiieving they could all fail.

I agree. That's why you should check for cracked header pins on the connectors on the resistor board. Also measure the resistors on the resistor board and check for cracked solder joint on the resistor leads.

Quoted from PDX_Pinball:

Wait, I wasn't thinking clearly. When the A/C relay is on A, my orange wire has no power. When set to C, every flasher has the 40v which makes sense as it's in a chain. This orange wire is not CPU controlled, it's always 40v and either off (A side) or on (C side) as controlled by solenoid 12

Correct.

Quoted from PDX_Pinball:
What activates the bulb is the black/color wire.

The Tip transistor on the CPU board. It grounds the black wire completing the circuit.

#32 8 months ago
Quoted from PDX_Pinball:

4c, cats flasher was working until I accidentally grounded the black wire lug (with resistor board out), caused a spark, burned out bulb. Put board back in and a new bulb and now its not working

Check the fuse that powers the orange wire, it may have burnt also.

#33 8 months ago

On page 29 of the manual it has a diagram of the A/C relay and how it works in the game.

#34 8 months ago

I reflowed all the connectors on the resistor board and problem appears to be fixed!!! I say appeared because I only have about 4 working bulbs left and haven't swapped them in to every socket, but I've tested a few and we're good.

Big thanks to Grumpy and Rob for their help. I know a lot more about flashers now than I did before

#35 8 months ago

Glad to help.

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