(Topic ID: 287497)

System 11 - Momentary locked coil / Fuse blow

By djodars

3 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 16 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by Shogun00
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 3 years ago

Hi!

I've been stuck with this problem for a while now and I don't know how to proceed anymore.

The Outlane Kickback coil (Sol. 20/Special 4) is getting momentarily locked on after engaging. After a few games, the 2.5A fuse below the playfield blows and prevents me from playing the game. The fuse always blow after Sol. 20 energizes and then Sol. 13 cannot work since they're on the same circuit.

The following components were already replaced but the issue persists:
CPU: Q69, Q68, U45
Aux. power board: Q8, D5

It looks like it de-energizes when the Upper Kickback coil (Sol. 13) is engaged which is always right after.

Could this issue potentially come from U38 as well? Logically seems like the last piece of the puzzle but maybe there's another explanation that I haven't thought of.

Here's a video of the issue:

Thank you for your help!

#2 3 years ago
Quoted from djodars:

Could this issue potentially come from U38 as well? Logically seems like the last piece of the puzzle but maybe there's another explanation that I haven't thought of.

Yes, it could. I would get a scope and look at the pulse length of U38 pin 19 and compare it to the pulses on another special solenoid, such as pin U41 pin 19.

#3 3 years ago

Welp, I can confirm this was not U38 as I just desoldered it, added a socket and put a new 6821 in. The issue persists.

#4 3 years ago

Have you swapped the diode or coil yet?

#5 3 years ago

That kicker shouldn`t stay out that long. Look into that area.

#6 3 years ago
Quoted from djodars:

I've been stuck with this problem for a while now and I don't know how to proceed anymore.

I would like to know what color control wire is on the kickback coil? Normally special solenoid #2 and #4 are for kickers not the kickback. Seems strange that Williams would change something like this.

#7 3 years ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

I would like to know what color control wire is on the kickback coil? Normally special solenoid #2 and #4 are for kickers not the kickback. Seems strange that Williams would change something like this.

According to the manual, the kickers (slings) are controlled solenoids #15 and #16 and the outlane kickback is blu-yel wire

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#8 3 years ago

I looked at the manual too, it just seemed odd that they would change their own methods. So for my own piece of mind I wanted to know the actual wire color. Not like I have seen any mistakes in the manuals before.

#9 3 years ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

I looked at the manual too, it just seemed odd that they would change their own methods. So for my own piece of mind I wanted to know the actual wire color. Not like I have seen any mistakes in the manuals before.

Agreed, seems strange, the games before this also had slings in special #2 and #4 as you said. I don't see any logical connection to any other hardware changes or anything like that. Someone must have been drinking that day, either the penman of the manual or the design team.

#10 3 years ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

I would like to know what color control wire is on the kickback coil? Normally special solenoid #2 and #4 are for kickers not the kickback. Seems strange that Williams would change something like this.

Control wire is indeed BLU/YEL.

Quoted from donjagra:

Have you swapped the diode or coil yet?

Diode (D5) has been replaced, coil hasn't but reads good. Parts are really expensive to get here but this is something I could try.

#11 3 years ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

I looked at the manual too, it just seemed odd that they would change their own methods. So for my own piece of mind I wanted to know the actual wire color. Not like I have seen any mistakes in the manuals before.

Quoted from wayout440:

Agreed, seems strange, the games before this also had slings in special #2 and #4 as you said. I don't see any logical connection to any other hardware changes or anything like that. Someone must have been drinking that day, either the penman of the manual or the design team.

<TL;DR>

You have to look beyond the table and at the bigger picture. This includes limitations of the power supply and what can be connected to where.

System 11 machines with an auxiliary power board have two supply voltages for the solenoids. 25V and 50V (nominal voltage). The machines are always wired the same way due to the jumper settings on the auxiliary power board. I don't think they change between machines - hence the board can be swapped between machines without much if any harm.

25V solenoids are:

  • 1A,2A,5A,8A
  • 9,10,11,12,15,16
  • 17,19,21,22

50V solenoids are:

  • 3A,4A,6A,7A
  • 13,14
  • 18,20

The reason the above list is static (fixed) is because there are only 8x TIP36Cs on the auxiliary power board. Higher voltage = higher current = need for higher power device = TIP36C.

In Rollergames the Deep Freeze magnet is high current. It needs a TIP36C. That's why there's a small magnet board underneath the playfield (with its own fuse). The TIP36C is driven by the TIP102 on the CPU board.

Back to your comments above ...

The ramp diverter and kickback need high current. Solenoid 13 is a kickback. Solenoid 14 is a kickback. Solenoid 18 is normally a slingshot and solenoid 20 is normally a slingshot. Which needs more power? A slingshot or a diverter/kickback? Answer: a diverter/kickback. So the designers swapped the slingshots to low current solenoids (15 and 16) and replaced the now vacant high current solenoids with those that needed the high current.

I can hear you asking ... why not use the unused 3A high current solenoid? It's conceivable that the kickback could have been assigned 3A and the diverter assigned to a low current solenoid but the problem with 3A is that the A/C relay needs to be switched to fire the solenoid. The game likes to keep the A/C relay energized so it can freely power the flashers without any relay switching delay. The A side solenoids are typically assigned to solenoids that are low frequency usage. If the kickback were assigned to 3A this would require switching the A/C relay to A (a small delay accompanies this) then firing the solenoid. If the solenoid doesn't fire strongly enough to reach the second kickback then it needs to keep firing to achieve this. That means the game can't switch to the C side to flash some flashers. It can only switch when the kick succeeds. When it switches to the C side there's another delay with that. If the kickback is assigned a dedicated high current driver the game keep the A/C relay at the C side and flash whatever flashers it wants while powering the kickback solenoid.

Note: the manual images below are not strictly correct in how it's wired but is theoretically correct in the desired result. The problem is solenoid 22.

</TL;DR>

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#12 3 years ago

Do we know what a B-13522 coil is supposed to measure at in terms of ohms? Haven't found the information anywhere.

#13 3 years ago
Quoted from djodars:

Do we know what a B-13522 coil is supposed to measure at in terms of ohms? Haven't found the information anywhere.

About 7 ohms

3 months later
#14 2 years ago

Actually just had a breakthrough and think I fixed the issue.

Since we could theoretically eliminate any CPU and mechanical issue, I thought about how the mechanism works and saw that two pieces of metal touch (the plunger and bracket). Fucking magnets, how do they work?

So I added a piece of electrical tape around the bracket and voila. The plunger doesn't stay stuck anymore. Hopefully that helps someone down the line!

20210607_094156 (resized).jpg20210607_094156 (resized).jpg
#15 2 years ago
Quoted from djodars:

Actually just had a breakthrough and think I fixed the issue.
Since we could theoretically eliminate any CPU and mechanical issue, I thought about how the mechanism works and saw that two pieces of metal touch (the plunger and bracket). Fucking magnets, how do they work?
So I added a piece of electrical tape around the bracket and voila. The plunger doesn't stay stuck anymore. Hopefully that helps someone down the line!
[quoted image]

Thanks for posting this. Occasionally, my kickback sticks too, but retracts immediately once I press the left flipper button. Plus, this issue seems to be common with Rollergames. I ran into the same thing with the one in the local arcade back in the day.

#16 2 years ago
Quoted from Shogun00:

Thanks for posting this. Occasionally, my kickback sticks too, but retracts immediately once I press the left flipper button. Plus, this issue seems to be common with Rollergames. I ran into the same thing with the one in the local arcade back in the day.

Update! I put some electrical tape on the bracket and plunger retracts instantly every time. Thanks djodars for the simple fix.

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