F-14 Tomcat
Williams, 1987Greetings Guys...and Gals.
I am trying to help a few pinsiders who have bought LED Bumper rings and have experienced
Dim lighting to failure on System 11 Pops. So far F14, and Black Knight.
Anyone have success ?
Any thoughts as to the issue? I am hearing that it fails after the pot is adjusted?
Your help is greatly appreciated.
Art
Quoted from MustangPaul:I have them on Space Station and they work perfect.
Did you adjust the brightness or leave them as default? What colour (top/bottom) do you have installed?
I turned them down just a touch, red top white bottom. The white bottom really lights up the images on the black of space on the pf by the pops. Red bottom would make all that to dark in opinion.
Quoted from MustangPaul:I turned them down just a touch, red top white bottom. The white bottom really lights up the images on the black of space on the pf by the pops. Red bottom would make all that to dark in opinion.
At any time during the installation of the LED ring do you recall if the LED ring touched the metal bumper ring?
That does look friggin' awesome!
I am working with Art to figure out why my F-14 Tomcat has seemingly fried two LED rings. Both of my LED rings initially worked, but minutes after installation they quit and the white underside never lit up again. The red topside lit up, but only faintly. When I went to take photos of this for Art tonight I installed the LED ring again and the POT on the LED ring touched the bumper ring and the whole LED ring lit up like it was new. I was able to touch the POT on/off the bumper ring and get the LED ring working. After a few attempts the LED ring went dead again. Touching the POT to the bumper ring now only lights up the red topside of the LED ring and only faintly.
This seems to be a grounding issue, but nothing has been determined yet.
What I think is happening here, and perhaps for a couple of people, is the bumper ring is making contact with the pot screw. As there are so many games, years, and manufacturing, along with 20-30 years of firing, caps, and skirt variances, this seems highly possible.
Earlier, I posted a thread about "lowering the bumper ring", and the better solution was to raise the cap with a small spacer. With the LED ring anchored to the cap using a dab of hot glue. an additional solution is to put a small piece of tape, or stick dot on the pot, after adjusting preferred brightness. Even a dab of hot glue would likely by perfect. Do both, maybe.
I think if this is tried, and Ill do some testing this weekend...I dont know if I can replicate, but it seems t be isolated so far on system 11 but obviously on rare occasions.
I heard from a customer that they have had no issue in their F14...so its not game centric....just
the slightest of variance, and then contact.
Please do share if you find this a solution.....I think a small spacer, and a dab of hot glue, and problem solved!...I hope.....
Art
Quoted from Fifty:That does look friggin' awesome!
I am working with Art to figure out why my F-14 Tomcat has seemingly fried two LED rings. Both of my LED rings initially worked, but minutes after installation they quit and the white underside never lit up again. The red topside lit up, but only faintly. When I went to take photos of this for Art tonight I installed the LED ring again and the POT on the LED ring touched the bumper ring and the whole LED ring lit up like it was new. I was able to touch the POT on/off the bumper ring and get the LED ring working. After a few attempts the LED ring went dead again. Touching the POT to the bumper ring now only lights up the red topside of the LED ring and only faintly.
This seems to be a grounding issue, but nothing has been determined yet.
Wow really, that is strange.
Quoted from OLDPINGUY:What I think is happening here, and perhaps for a couple of people, is the bumper ring is making contact with the pot screw. As there are so many games, years, and manufacturing, along with 20-30 years of firing, caps, and skirt variances, this seems highly possible.
Earlier, I posted a thread about "lowering the bumper ring", and the better solution was to raise the cap with a small spacer. With the LED ring anchored to the cap using a dab of hot glue. an additional solution is to put a small piece of tape, or stick dot on the pot, after adjusting preferred brightness. Even a dab of hot glue would likely by perfect. Do both, maybe.
I think if this is tried, and Ill do some testing this weekend...I dont know if I can replicate, but it seems t be isolated so far on system 11 but obviously on rare occasions.
I heard from a customer that they have had no issue in their F14...so its not game centric....just
the slightest of variance, and then contact.
Please do share if you find this a solution.....I think a small spacer, and a dab of hot glue, and problem solved!...I hope.....
Art
I would try a washer or two under the cap where it screws to the body of the pop before putting hot melt on the screw pot. 
Quoted from MustangPaul:I would try a washer or two under the cap where it screws to the body of the pop before putting hot melt on the screw pot.
A piece of mylar wrapped around the POT might do as well.
Art, I've brought both of my LED rings into work today. I will test them out with the variable power supplies we have here and report back.
Art, so I've got a variable power supply hooked up to the LED ring. I have the + on the copper lead of the 555 bulb led (white side) and the - connected to the potentiometer. When I do this the LED ring lights up;
If I move the (-) negative test lead to the black wire solder point the ring goes dead. It looks like nothing is getting through the potentiometer.
Hmmm...We know they left here OK, do you think it is now correct that the short created blew the PCB in the bulb?
Quoted from OLDPINGUY:Hmmm...We know they left here OK, do you think it is now correct that the short created blew the PCB in the bulb?
That's what I would think. Just bypass the pcb so it's at full power.
If the PCB in the bulb was blown would the LED in the bulb light up? It is lit up in the photo. What is the PCB doing exactly?
[EDIT] The potentiometer IS working. If I repeat the test and adjust the pot clockwise/counterclockwise) the brightness of the LEDs (both sides) changes. In my initial test I must have had the potentiometer adjust too low.
[EDIT2] If I repeat the same test and bring the test leads back to the bulb and touch the test leads there everything lights up.
The PCB is definitely blown. Can I assume the PCBs job is to simply reverse the polarity (+ and - ) so that the 555 cannot be inserted backwards?
Quoted from NextoPin:Did you ever put a meter on the pop bumper socket to see what voltage was coming out? Could it be possible you have some issue with the GI?
If I install a standard incandescent bulb or a 1 SMD LED they work fine. It is not a GI problem.
OK, Before we get too crazy. indeed a voltage spike or GI voltage can be the issue, but for now, because of what we are seeing, I think I can shed more light.
In my aging feeble eyes, which without help, use to have incredible zoom capability, there is also a trace wire going around the whole circle. Never noticed it before.
Ao I have taken, new, and damaged rings, created a large assortment of different connections, from the diode leads, to the Pot screw to the trace. Any of these touching metal would result in an issue.
Trying to determine which it is, may be moot.
So my question is do you have a working one to test out still?
If not, lets go back to PMs, and we can go through the steps together to help solve for the few people who might experience this. Raising the cap, covering the Pot, are the two best so far, a steps, and we can add stickers, or spacers to every order, just in case, or send when needed.
Ill look for the PM or email to work through this now.
More questions to figure this out:
1. How many of you are using the original pop bodies (translucent ivoryish plastic)?
2. How many are using replacement bodies (white opaque plastic)?
3. How many raised up the cap/ring with plastic washers BEFORE it broke?
Quoted from OLDPINGUY:In my aging feeble eyes, which without help, use to have incredible zoom capability, there is also a trace wire going around the whole circle.
Yes, this is correct. The trace going around the whole circle is there. If I look at the LED ring from the side I can actually see the copper trace.
Quoted from OLDPINGUY:So my question is do you have a working one to test out still?
Sorry, are you talking to me Art? Yes I have one, but it doesn't work if I plug it into the pop bumper lamp socket. I can only get it to work using an external power supply.
PMs are no problem.
Quoted from OLDPINGUY:Oh, also for the post, did you hot glue the ring to the cap?
No. I installed it into the lamp socket first. I did this for a few reasons...
1) I wanted to test it and make sure it worked first.
2) I wasn't sure of the orientation the LED ring should be glued into the bumper cap.
3) I wanted to adjust the pot to my liking first.
Quoted from vid1900:More questions to figure this out:
1. How many of you are using the original pop bodies (translucent ivoryish plastic)?
2. How many are using replacement bodies (white opaque plastic)?
3. How many raised up the cap/ring with plastic washers BEFORE it broke?
1. No, my pop is rebuild from scratch.
2. White opaque body
3. I did not think this was necessary. So No.
My pop bumper was rebuild using your guide Vid (thanks!).
I understand it all. Thanks Vid.
New bumper skirts, rings, bodies, etc..all can add to a 1mm-2mm height variance, causing the short.
First, Stats, we have 12 rings back, that people have had an issue, with a large amount sold, so about
2% or less have experienced this.
We check each one going out.
Most rings do not need hot glue to the cap, but some do shift around. It isnt possible to say which
one with so many different caps, manufacturers, wear, replacement/original bodies.
But all these can possibly mean, someone who installs could have this issue.
Sounds like normal pinball, that trying to make something 100% perfect for 35 years of games will have bumps, but right here to address it.
With your help fiftyquid, since you dont have a working one, we can try another if you wish, and glue to cap, raise slightly, adjust brightness, and cover pot.
I honestly believe this should work.
I will test, if I can duplicate this weekend.
IF we succeed, then we can share with anyone else who might have this experience.
I believe this will work as well. However I'm concerned I might fry another LED ring if I ever have to service the pop bumper in the future. When I install the LED ring do I need to use extreme caution not to touch the LED ring to metal? Should the power to the pin be off while installing, should the pin be unplugged until it is in place?
For both of my installs the power to the pin was on so that I could adjust the brightness to my liking. I removed the 1 SMD LED and installed the LED ring with the power on. I am sure both rings more than likely touched the ringrod and fried the PCB in the 555 housing while adjusting the brightness.
I don't believe there is a clearance issue with the LED ring and my bumper cap. I am going to guess I am at fault for not being more cautious.
I should be able to bypass the PCB and get the LED ring working in my pin. I'm just not sure how I'm going to do it yet.
I am willing to try anything and help out troubleshooting this. Just let me know what you need me to do.
Its really up to you....Like every good advice, the safest when doing electrical on a pin, turn the power off.
There is plenty of lead wire to plug in and adjust brightness, and try the piece of tape.
You will have tested spacing it higher without the ring.
You just not touch the bumper ring to the LED ring.
Now, It could still fail, simply the height of the new replacement skirt, bumper ring, cap top all assembled. With the power off, you can see if the bumper ring is hitting the LEDs, Diode, or Pot Screw to know how much higher to have the cap. A dab of hot glue comes off with no damage, so 100% serviceable and reversible.
Our, you could call it day....Here to be of help.
Art
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