System 11 GI always on, doesn't play with game.

(Topic ID: 214821)

System 11 GI always on, doesn't play with game.


By mixmastapj

8 months ago



Topic Stats

  • 27 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 8 months ago by mixmastapj
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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gi relay (resized).jpg
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#1 8 months ago

My Dr Dude that I got a few years back was in pretty rough shape. Had a pretty hacked up wiring job. I'm trying to undo a lot of his hacks and restore this thing to greatness.

It's cleaned up really nice, and everything appears functional enough for play, but there's a few things making it imperfect.

The biggest one of which I'm totally lost, is how the GI is wired up. Currently, the moment you power on the game until the moment you power it off, the GI is on the entire time. There's no flicker, black outs for tilts, or any kind of control whatsoever. Some quick looking at the manual has led me to the fuses and some parts on the interconnect board, but nothing really about GI control.

Where and what should I be looking for in particular, I'll happily take pics wherever, I'm just having a hard time tracing the GI back to somewhere relevant. I'm unsure if this is LED/Board/or wiring related, so I kind of don't know where to start.

Thanks!

PS: Here's a vid of what the GI should be doing after ball launch/outlanes/mixmaster/excellent ray

#2 8 months ago

There's a relay board under the play field that controls the GI. Put the game in coil test and listen for the relay to click when you are on solenoid #10.

#3 8 months ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

There's a relay board under the play field that controls the GI. Put the game in coil test and listen for the relay to click when you are on solenoid #10.

No click on solenoid #10 which I imagine is bad since I heard all the clicks for the others. Is it as easy as buying one of these and replacing it? http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/5580-09555-01

Also, GRUMPY to the rescue again. I owe this guy a six-pack, maybe two at this point.

#4 8 months ago
Quoted from mixmastapj:

No click on solenoid #10 which I imagine is bad since I heard all the clicks for the others. Is it as easy as buying one of these and replacing it? http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/5580-09555-01
Also, GRUMPY to the rescue again. I owe this guy a six-pack, maybe two at this point.

Very easy to change .Just make sure it's the right relay board. There are several kinds for System 11's.

#5 8 months ago
Quoted from mixmastapj:

No click on solenoid #10 which I imagine is bad since I heard all the clicks for the others. Is it as easy as buying one of these and replacing it? http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/5580-09555-01
Also, GRUMPY to the rescue again. I owe this guy a six-pack, maybe two at this point.

Now you need to find out if its the CPU board or the relay that's bad. Use a jumper wire connected to the ground braid on one end and touch the other end to the metal tab of Q-9 on the CPU board. Do you hear the relay click now?

#6 8 months ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

Now you need to find out if its the CPU board or the relay that's bad. Use a jumper wire connected to the ground braid on one end and touch the other end to the metal tab of Q-9 on the CPU board. Do you hear the relay click now?

Nope.

Looks like the CPU is probably fine (unless both are bad) and we def need a new relay since even jumping through the game mode won't trigger it.

On mine, it looks like a yellow box and not the clear gray one I linked earlier. I imagine there's prob 2-3 relays for GI in this thing.

#7 8 months ago

http://www.greatlakesmodular.com/products/index.html

Maybe this one? The 12v version. Check out the site.

#8 8 months ago

Looks like the pic but the manual is saying 24v. I found another relay on the APDB but it also has the same part number. Changing the board for a few bucks more seems like the better move long term, and I've already had great success with GLMs Interconnect Board I bought in 2016

Capture (resized).PNG

#9 8 months ago
Quoted from mixmastapj:

Changing the board for a few bucks more seems like the better move long term,

Not so fast yet. You still need to rule out a wiring issue. Check the voltage on the red wire on the 2 pin connector on the relay board. It should be 25 volts dc any time the power is on.

#10 8 months ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

Not so fast yet. You still need to rule out a wiring issue. Check the voltage on the red wire on the 2 pin connector on the relay board. It should be 25 volts dc any time the power is on.

Welp, with the red on the red lead and the black to ground, I was getting 37.8V

#11 8 months ago
Quoted from mixmastapj:

I was getting 37.8V

This is fine.

Now take a jumper wire and with one end connected to the ground braid touch the other end to the other wire on the 2 pin connector. Does the relay click now?

#12 8 months ago

Ok guys you are steering him off course. You need to think simple first. First before anything else, check the relay board for cracked solder joints. Most likely problem is solder joints on this board, usually the ones on the relay points that connect to the board. If they look cracked then heat up you solder iron and get them to re-melt or reflow again. I have used this on at least 2 System 11 machines to fix relay issues.

#13 8 months ago
Quoted from HamsterHerder:

check the relay board for cracked solder joints

I was going there next if the relay doesn't work with the jumper.

pasted_image (resized).png

#14 8 months ago

Yep, there is your problem I bet, those are bad.

#15 8 months ago

No clicks on the jump

How bad are mine? Feels solid.

IMG_20180417_000558 (resized).jpg

#16 8 months ago

Oh geez, i got the other guys pic confused with original poster.

Yours looks pretty good. So now what to do is look if you have the same kind of board mounted on the head for GI up there. (on the board with all the lights) I know some sys 11 do. Then switch the boards around and see if the GI on the playfield works now. This will tell you if it is the relay board real quick.

#17 8 months ago

Don't have the one like whirlwind does

#18 8 months ago

Let Grumpy work. He's the man.

#19 8 months ago
Quoted from Leeb18509:

Let Grumpy work. He's the man.

Yeah, he's been the MVP of the Dr dude owners thread already. Was aware how lucky I was getting advice from him in this thread

#20 8 months ago

So DR Dude doesn't have another relay on the back of the board like seen here on Elvira?

gi relay (resized).jpg

#21 8 months ago
Quoted from HamsterHerder:

So DR Dude doesn't have another relay on the back of the board like seen here on Elvira?

Nope.

#22 8 months ago
Quoted from mixmastapj:

No clicks on the jump
How bad are mine? Feels solid.

Sounds like it's time for a new one.

#23 8 months ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

Sounds like it's time for a new one.

At some point during all this mess, i must've knocked a connector that turned off the mixmaster motor. I checked the ones right on the motor and the ones that go to that board on the bottom. Nothing is getting that thing moving now Sometimes I wish I just good enough alone

#24 8 months ago

I would still do some continuity checks first at the relay board just to be sure you are not missing something easy. I am guessing you checked voltage by putting your probe on the exposed wire at the connector and not the pin on the board itself. If that is true, with the machine off, do continuity check from the wire on the connector to the other side of board at the connector pin. Even better would farther down the trace to the relay mount hole. This is to make sure plug can actually sending power to board all the way to the relay. I am talking the wires for the solenoid portion. Not high power wires for the lights. (I need to download the manual to get wire colors)

(about your latest post) Sorry to hear anther problem now. This is why I steer novices away from doing tests on live running games until the last thing. Not saying you did something but better safe than sorry and many tests can be done to rule things out without ever even turning the machine on with a multimeter in continuity mode.

#25 8 months ago

For the mixmaster test, Q6 nor Q8 did anything when jumped so I just think it's a dumb wiring problem somewhere, just gotta trace it back to the board

#26 8 months ago

You said wiring was a mess on this machine so you need to do basic troubleshooting first before jumping stuff with machine on.

Always check wiring from head to the part that doesn't work first. (with machine off) Multi-meter once again in Continuity mode unplug the connector for what you are having problems with either at the interconnect board or even better all the way to the CPU board. Put probe on wire and then other probe on the wire at the part on the playfield and see if you get beep or buzz. Then you know if wiring up to that point is good. You can do this for anything that is not working, lamps, coils, and switches. Check both colors of wires for each feature not working. Super easy and super safe. If you don't get buzz you move your probes closer to the other probe by finding another exposed wire point and checking again. Keep doing this until you get buzz. Now you know from the buzz point to the previous test point you have an issue in the wiring. As an example I had one machine that the problem was the resistor on the interconnect board. So I only got buzz once I put my probes from CPU connector to the input of the interconnect board from the CPU. So I knew the interconnect board had the issue. I do this step first for everything because normally your problems are just disconnects in wires because of failed solder joints are connectors that are bad.

I am getting out of this at this point, but do these steps and you will easily troubleshoot basic wiring issues on your machine. Most times that is your problem because of vibrations you get at the playfield.

This way of testing is also a good habit to get into if you ever want to fix up an old EM machine. There is no transistor to jump so continuity checks are your go to testing for just about everything.

#27 8 months ago
Quoted from HamsterHerder:

You said wiring was a mess on this machine so you need to do basic troubleshooting first before jumping stuff with machine on.
Always check wiring from head to the part that doesn't work first. (with machine off) Multi-meter once again in Continuity mode unplug the connector for what you are having problems with either at the interconnect board or even better all the way to the CPU board. Put probe on wire and then other probe on the wire at the part on the playfield and see if you get beep or buzz. Then you know if wiring up to that point is good. You can do this for anything that is not working, lamps, coils, and switches. Check both colors of wires for each feature not working. Super easy and super safe. If you don't get buzz you move your probes closer to the other probe by finding another exposed wire point and checking again. Keep doing this until you get buzz. Now you know from the buzz point to the previous test point you have an issue in the wiring. As an example I had one machine that the problem was the resistor on the interconnect board. So I only got buzz once I put my probes from CPU connector to the input of the interconnect board from the CPU. So I knew the interconnect board had the issue. I do this step first for everything because normally your problems are just disconnects in wires because of failed solder joints are connectors that are bad.
I am getting out of this at this point, but do these steps and you will easily troubleshoot basic wiring issues on your machine. Most times that is your problem because of vibrations you get at the playfield.
This way of testing is also a good habit to get into if you ever want to fix up an old EM machine. There is no transistor to jump so continuity checks are your go to testing for just about everything.

Thanks for your help. I'm just not entirely certain where from CPU to MixMaster this thing stops along the way. The schematics in the PDF manual are hard to read (on top of the fact that I don't really know everything I'm looking at anyhow). I get the basic logistics of troubleshooting with a multimeter, and obviously continuity doesn't require power so there's only risk involved when you don't turn it off first. I just don't know which pins on which headers are my stops along the way. Is there an easier place to find this than the grainy schematic PDFs I'm finding online?

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