(Topic ID: 4501)

System 11 flipper problem

By SealClubber

12 years ago


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    #1 12 years ago

    The upper right flipper on my BK2K activates but will not hold in the up position.

    I have replaced the coil, the EOS switch, the plunger and the coil stop. I also replaced the flipper button. The EOS switch is normally closed and opens near the end of the stroke. The other two flippers work fine. I have power at all three lugs and the flipper fires when you ground the center lug. What else can I check? I feel like I am missing something obvious.

    How do I test the yellow capacitor? Does it matter which way it is wired on the EOS switch?

    #2 12 years ago

    It sounds like that flipper is not making contact with the EOS switch
    Have you tried adjusting the EOS switch?Is the EOS switch installed
    in the correct position?

    #3 12 years ago
    Quoted from SealClubber:

    The EOS switch is normally closed and opens near the end of the stroke.

    Yes

    #4 12 years ago

    Check the wiring on the coil lugs and make sure they are
    correct

    #5 12 years ago

    Check the EOS switch for power and ground and make sure it's working.

    Does the EOS switch work in the Switch test?

    #6 12 years ago

    It sounds like your EOS is fine, but your hold winding on the coil could be broken. Have you checked the hold winding for continuity/resistance?

    Have you cleaned the cabinet switch? Sometimes it can be a problem if you aren't getting good contact and voltage to the coil.

    It doesn't matter which way the capacitor is wired, it is just there to reduce the spark when the EOS switch opens and closes.

    #7 12 years ago

    The button switch is brand new. The coil is brand new (just put it in today) no change.
    The upper EOS is not working in switch edge test. New I was forgetting something.

    I thought I wired it the same as before I shopped it because I mark each lug with the wire color before I desolder. Not 100% sure what the coil lug wiring is supposed to be on the upper flipper or if it is connected to the bottom flipper correctly. Can't find any example of it.

    I have the EOS connected to the banded side lug and center lug. The wire from the cabinet is going to the unbanded side lug. The wire from the lower flipper EOS is going to the banded side lug.

    My BOP doesn't have an upper flipper to compare.

    #8 12 years ago

    I dont know if this will help from Pinrepair
    Flipper Wire Colors.
    From game to game, Williams often used a consistent set of wire colors for flipper wiring (unfortunately, this is not always the case, as seen in the picture above). In the picture below, the flipper coil lugs are labeled "lug1" to "lug3". Here are the wire color break down for most games:

    Lug 1 (outside banded diode lug, two winding wires, 50 volts):
    o Lower Left flipper: Grey/Yellow
    o Lower Right flipper: Blue/Yellow
    o Upper Left flipper: Grey/Yellow
    o Uppper Right flipper: Blue/Yellow

    Lug 3 (outside non-banded diode lug, one winding wire):
    o Lower Left flipper: Orange/Blue
    o Lower Right flipper: Orange/Green
    o Upper Left flipper: Orange/Grey
    o Uppper Right flipper: Orange/Purple

    Lug 2 (middle lug):
    o Lower Left flipper: Blue/Grey
    o Lower Right flipper: Blue/Purple
    o Upper Left flipper: Black/Blue
    o Uppper Right flipper: Black/Yellow

    #9 12 years ago

    I was looking at my manual and according to it I have the flippers wired correctly. It is not the same as that list. I do keep blowing fuses but not right away. Probably because the EOS switch is not working.

    Can someone with a BK2K take a pic of the Upper right flipper coil and the lower right flipper coil?

    #10 12 years ago

    Is possible that its probably a bad coil?Did you check the coil for any broken wires.
    Wires going from the coil to the lugs.They break off sometimes.
    I think BR has a BK

    #11 12 years ago

    I put a brand new coil in today. No change. The windings were fine on the older one and it passes the ohm test.

    #13 12 years ago

    dont really know how to help ya.
    I just recently fixed a Whirlwind problem we had.. the right side flippers were just weak, no problems otherwise. I never knew that the switches right inside the flipper buttons needed to be FILED.. those are apparenly tungsten-type switches, and the power to the flips flows through them. I filed them a little bit and Whirlwind is a superbeast now, I tell ya what.

    have you tried that?
    should I take some pics in the morning of our upper flipper wiring? it has a top right flip, just like BK2k.

    EDIT: yeah, what stangbat said.

    #14 12 years ago

    Hopefully these can help SC, these are from the Whirlwind upper right flip.

    #15 12 years ago

    Hmmm....S%$^

    pics won't load

    #16 12 years ago

    Can someone with a BK2K take a pic of the Upper right flipper coil and the lower right flipper coil?

    Here you go:

    17072011831.jpg17072011831.jpg 17072011832.jpg17072011832.jpg 17072011839.jpg17072011839.jpg 17072011840.jpg17072011840.jpg

    #17 12 years ago

    Wow, I didn't realize how different the flippers on these the two games were. Not sure mine would have helped now that I see it.

    Oh well, way to save the day O-A

    #18 12 years ago

    If the EOS switch is not working in the switch test then the problem is with the switch and or wiring to it not the coil.
    Check the switch for power and ground. I think on that machine The switch should be closed when the flipper is at rest and open when the flipper is up.
    Check ground wire for continuity.

    #19 12 years ago

    Thanks guys, I will fully inspect the pics after Breakfast.
    OA - looks like you are missing the yellow capacitor on your lower right flipper and why do you have the yellow cap soldered to the coil in the upper? I thought it is supposed to be soldered to the EOS switch?

    #20 12 years ago
    Quoted from SealClubber:

    OA - looks like you are missing the yellow capacitor on your lower right flipper and why do you have the yellow cap soldered to the coil in the upper? I thought it is supposed to be soldered to the EOS switch?

    It has been like this since I got the machine a year ago. The flippers have been working fine. It has had a hard life, as it was still out on route until I bought it so anything may have been done to it in the past to keep it working.

    I've just had a shuffle around of pins today, and the BK2K has gone into storage in the garage. I can't do anything more to it at the moment, or get any more pictures. I'll give it a good check over when its set up again.

    Hope you sort that top flipper out soon SC.

    #21 12 years ago

    Just had a thought whilst looking at the schematics for BK2K. Are the connectors on the upper playfield interconnection board OK? They are on J1 & J2 pins 5 & 6. Those connectors tend to get hot & burn, especially on the GI circuits (it's one of the jobs I need to fix on mine). You may be suffering a voltage drop once you start drawing power through the top flipper coils.

    #22 12 years ago

    I replaced the connectors and pins and have connectivity across the pins.

    #23 12 years ago

    Thank you for all the photos.
    It looks to be wired correctly.
    Is there anything on the circuit boards it could be? This is my first System 11 and I am not fully familiar with it.

    #24 12 years ago

    I really don't know.
    have you filed those flipper button switches yet?

    edit: you sure those New cabinet switches are wired correctly?

    #25 12 years ago

    Is the transistor that controls the hold part of the coil blown? That's what it sounds like to me. If you're not sure, take a pair of gator clips, clip one end on the transistor and one on the ground. If it fires then, you've got a blown transistor.

    #26 12 years ago

    With System 11, there isn't a lot on the boards that can effect the flippers. And if there is a problem on the board, you'll most likely see issues for all the flippers.

    There is no separate transistor to control the low power hold voltage. The hold voltage is always present, and comes into play when the EOS is opened and the low resistance of the high power coil is removed.

    My only guess at this point is to check what type of coil you have. Is it by any chance a series wound coil instead of parallel wound?

    #27 12 years ago

    It is the newer kind, parallel I think. FL-11630
    I have not filed the cabinet/button switch because it is brand new and obviously working since both flippers activate. I am just having trouble with the upper flipper's hold side. I may have wired the button switch wrong but the lower flipper works fine. Power (Orange) wire comes into the one lug. The other lug has a wire going to the unbanded side lug on each flipper.

    I am going to replace the capacitor on the EOS switch and resolder the wires and see if that does anything.

    Is there a transistor for the flippers on System 11s? Pinrepair doesn't mention anything about it.

    #28 12 years ago

    On Pinrepair, System 11, Section 3h, the section titled "The CPU Board Flipper Relay K1", it mentions "transistor Q67 (2N4401) and a 7402 at U50 and a 7406 at U56, and ultimately the 6821 PIA at U10." However, if the transistor is bad, you'll have no flippers at all.

    #29 12 years ago

    I got it working. It was the secondary EOS on the bottom flipper. I took it apart and put it back together and it now works fine. My guess is it wasn't making full contact during play but was when actuated by hand.

    Thanks for all your help.

    #30 12 years ago

    Glad to hear you got it fixed.

    #31 12 years ago

    Good to hear that. My Whirlwind, although also a System 11b, isn't set up like that. It only has one EOS on the bottom flipper.

    #32 12 years ago

    I had a problem like that on my CFTBL and it was a bad diode on the coil. I know it's a WPC game but...

    #33 12 years ago

    Excellent, good to hear you got it figured out.

    Quoted from stangbat:

    My Whirlwind, although also a System 11b, isn't set up like that. It only has one EOS on the bottom flipper.

    I was thinking the same thing when I saw O-As pics. Pretty weird

    #34 12 years ago

    Great news SC, Now you can battle the Black Knight. I'm missing mine now it's in storage already!

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