(Topic ID: 222058)

System 11 CPU will not boot

By ArnieC

5 years ago


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  • Latest reply 2 years ago by tbonedrums
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    #1 5 years ago

    I picked up a clean System 11 Cpu for my Whirlwind, the CPU is clean with no battery acid damage or hacks. The board does not boot - the 1st LED is on, I believe that is the 5 volt Led. Things I have done, I changed ZR1, ZR2, Q34, Q36,Q38, C30, R55, R56, U11, U25 & U13. The CPU processor chips and eproms are good, I checked them in a working board. I have metered all the PIA with a multimeter checking for shorts, checked the reset line for low to high when you power up the board. All voltages seem to be correct - I suspect one of the PIA's are bad, is there a way to check them without removing them all and replacing them? Any other ideas of what I might be missing? Thanks for your help.

    #2 5 years ago
    Quoted from ArnieC:

    I picked up a clean System 11 Cpu for my Whirlwind, the CPU is clean with no battery acid damage or hacks. The board does not boot - the 1st LED is on, I believe that is the 5 volt Led. Things I have done, I changed ZR1, ZR2, Q34, Q36,Q38, C30, R55, R56, U11, U25 & U13. The CPU processor chips and eproms are good, I checked them in a working board. I have metered all the PIA with a multimeter checking for shorts, checked the reset line for low to high when you power up the board. All voltages seem to be correct - I suspect one of the PIA's are bad, is there a way to check them without removing them all and replacing them? Any other ideas of what I might be missing? Thanks for your help.

    So if you unplug everything except J17, will the board get past that initial LED in the boot sequence?

    #3 5 years ago

    Can you post a picture of the board?

    #4 5 years ago

    Yes J117 only is plugged in. Here are some pictures

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    #5 5 years ago
    Quoted from ArnieC:

    Yes J117 only is plugged in. Here are some pictures
    [quoted image]

    So if you press the CPU button on the side of the board when powered on, how many LED flashes do you get?

    #6 5 years ago

    Before you did any work, did the diagnostic or blanking LED come on at all?

    Can you swap the U15 and U24 (6802)? I am not familiar with the brand of U15 and like the Hitachi CPU, it might require a jumper change.

    #7 5 years ago

    I swapped the 6802 out of the non working board into a working board and the Motorola 6802 out of the working board into the the non working board. No change. The diagnostic led has not come on since I purchased the boards. It must be one of the 6821 chips?

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    #8 5 years ago
    Quoted from ArnieC:

    I swapped the 6802 out of the non working board into a working board and the Motorola 6802 out of the working board into the the non working board. No change. The diagnostic led has not come on since I purchased the boards. It must be one of the 6821 chips?
    [quoted image][quoted image]

    And pressing the CPU button results in no flashing LED?

    #9 5 years ago

    Correct

    #10 5 years ago

    Normally, a PIA failure will keep the blanking LED on. Seems you may have a problem between the CPU, RAM, and game ROMs being both LEDs are off. Do you have a logic probe to check signals?

    Any output out of U20 pin 2?

    #11 5 years ago

    Do you know the EEPROM chips are good for sure? A bad burn will stop it from booting. If you're sure...

    I'd check the PIA chips with the board off. Set the multimeter to diode test and put the red lead on the leg of pin one (should have a white dot next to it), then run the black lead down the chip. You should get .4 to .6 reading. If it's 0, that's a short and the chip is probably bad.

    #12 5 years ago

    EPROMs are good, low signal at U20 pin2 should be high. Where should I look next.

    #13 5 years ago

    Vireland - yes the Eproms are good, I switched all the socketed chips into a working board and verified it working in the game - so I don't think that is the problem.

    PinballManiac40 asked about the U20 - I believe we are on to something here - I have a Logic Probe that I am still learning to use, so I have a working board booted up next to the non working board to get voltages and check the logic. On the working board the U20 lights the "high" light on pins 2,4,10,13 and 14, on the nonworking board all of the pins register low except 14. So I think it is something in the blanking circuit ( since above pin 2 it is screened "blanking" ) I believe the PIA that goes to the blanking circuit is U41?

    #14 5 years ago

    I find that strange that you see a low on U20 pin 2 but yet the blanking LED is not lit solid.

    Can you probe the U25 and report the pulses and highs/lows you see?

    #15 5 years ago

    I tested U25 with a logic probe on both a working and the non-booting board. Both board have a Nvram in them and both are jumpered the same for it so it has a 28 pin chip in it and not a 24 as origianlly in them. The signals that are different - pin 4 on the working board reads HIgh with negative single pulses, pin 4 on the nonworking board reads low with negative single pulses. The other difference is pin 19 on the working board reads low high with a Square wave, pin 19 on the nonworking board reads low high as well, however it pulses very rapid like a machine gun.

    #16 5 years ago
    Quoted from ArnieC:

    I tested U25 with a logic probe on both a working and the non-booting board. Both board have a Nvram in them and both are jumpered the same for it so it has a 28 pin chip in it and not a 24 as origianlly in them. The signals that are different - pin 4 on the working board reads HIgh with negative single pulses, pin 4 on the nonworking board reads low with negative single pulses. The other difference is pin 19 on the working board reads low high with a Square wave, pin 19 on the nonworking board reads low high as well, however it pulses very rapid like a machine gun.

    So, bad timing crystal? I don't know what could cause the pulses to accelerate except that.

    #17 5 years ago
    Quoted from ArnieC:

    I tested U25 with a logic probe on both a working and the non-booting board. Both board have a Nvram in them and both are jumpered the same for it so it has a 28 pin chip in it and not a 24 as origianlly in them. The signals that are different - pin 4 on the working board reads HIgh with negative single pulses, pin 4 on the nonworking board reads low with negative single pulses. The other difference is pin 19 on the working board reads low high with a Square wave, pin 19 on the nonworking board reads low high as well, however it pulses very rapid like a machine gun.

    Ok. I would test to be sure U25 pin 4 and 19 traces are good to the game ROMs. Test from the top part of the pin near the body of the RAM to the pin near the body of both ROMs in case there is a damaged traced under the RAM.

    !!B MPU RAM to ROM trace test (resized).png!!B MPU RAM to ROM trace test (resized).png
    #18 5 years ago

    I checked the continuity between the all the pins between U25, U26, and U27 and compared it to the working board. They are exactly the same - I was hoping that was it. I ordered a new Crystal - I don't think that is it but for a few bucks to rule it out, why not. Could 1 of the capacitors before the Crystal be bad?

    #19 5 years ago

    I was hoping that was where the issue would have been. I think you now need to test lines that go from the RAM/ROMs back to the CPU chip as it seems you're missing a part of a signal.

    1 month later
    #20 5 years ago

    OK, I thought I would try this one more time and then send it to a professional - I have removed all the 6821 chips and put on sockets. When I removed the chips all of them tested good in a working board - so that was a waste of time - but kind of fun at the same time. I did clean work and all the chips came out clean so I can re-use them. Yesterday I hooked it up to the test fixture and just left it on for a 1/2 hour to see if anything got hot - and yes the Ram chip got U25 got very hot. So I figured what the heck, maybe a problem with the socket so I removed it and put on a new one. No change. I did test the NVRAM and it is jumpered correctly so that is not the problem either. It has got to be something I am totally over looking. Appreciate help from anyone else who likes a puzzle and this is that. I hate to send it in and find out a diode was out or something stupid like that - but on the other hand I am not making any progress so might just have to send it in. Thanks for any help.

    3 years later
    #21 2 years ago

    Did this ever get solved Arnie?
    I have a Whirlwind that is having a very similar issue and thought this would be a good post to resurrect.
    I have it on the bench with only J17 hooked up for power. Just the 5V led is all that lights up. The reset lines are high but like Arnie, I have a stuck low blanking signal on U20. I also have a working game that I swapped U15,U26 and U27 out of. Those 3 from the dead board are working in the machine and the dead board is still the same so I can rule out the processor and ROMs. I have not done anything else so far and am looking to maybe send it to Chris Hibler but his website says he is 60 days out so thought I would try my luck a little longer.
    The machine this came out of had a shorted BR1 on the power supply which I repaired but still would not boot so I pulled it out and put it on the bench. It looks clean with no acid damage and the only thing I can see is a previous repair where U17 and Q6 have been changed. Those are in the solenoid driver circuit so I don't think this is a problem. I am looking in the area of the 555 timer at U43. The blanking signal comes out of there at pin 3 and 7 and should be high. When I probe U43 pin2 trigger on my working board the signal is strobing but on the dead board it is showing high steady 3.3 volts. That line is tied to U51 pin 4 and U44 pin 21 and I am wondering if one of those could have failed or if there is something else in that trigger circuit like Q50 or C58 that I should focus on. Looking for some suggestions to try or maybe somewhere else reasonable to ship to with a shorter turnaround. Thanks.

    #22 2 years ago

    Some more notes and ramblings -
    I tried piggybacking another 555 on U43 - no help.
    From there, I downloaded the test rom and was able to get it to run as instructed here - https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Leon_Borre_Williams_System_11_Repair
    I set it up exactly as described. All the PIA outputs toggled as they should. The blanking signal
    flashes high very briefly as the program is running and the k1 relay toggles in sync with my probe. The document gets kind of confusing beyond the PIA testing as far as checking the address lines and such so I figured I would stop here. Still open for thoughts and suggestions.

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