(Topic ID: 43458)

System 11 Club !

By mof

11 years ago


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There are 4,650 posts in this topic. You are on page 87 of 93.
#4301 9 months ago

Which system 11 games avoid being one or two shot? Police Force became unbearable for me after a handful of plays because of center ramp unlimited millions.

#4302 9 months ago

I enjoy police force, I don't see why this is such a game killer but you're not the first person to mention it.

Quoted from sullivcd40:Which system 11 games avoid being one or two shot? Police Force became unbearable for me after a handful of plays because of center ramp unlimited millions.

#4303 9 months ago
Quoted from jrcmlc:

I enjoy police force, I don't see why this is such a game killer but you're not the first person to mention it.

Mostly just disappointment because it could have been so cool. The points are center ramp all day then double on right ramp on ball 3. District 82 put monster rubbers in the center ramp posts to force other strategies. Great candidate for a code update.

#4304 9 months ago

I loved that center shot. Loved seeing how many in a row.

#4305 9 months ago

I think police force is sort of underrated.

#4306 9 months ago
Quoted from sullivcd40:

Mostly just disappointment because it could have been so cool. The points are center ramp all day then double on right ramp on ball 3. District 82 put monster rubbers in the center ramp posts to force other strategies. Great candidate for a code update.

The tournament rom nerfs the double score/take the high score thing.

What would you change on the center ramp then to nerf that strat of unlimited millions? I haven't played police force since it came out in the 80s-90s.... probably last time was in 1995 or so - just don't remember the ins and outs of the game. Maybe don't advance the center ramp scoring by shooting the ramp? It times out like cyclone/comet does right? Maybe advance it some other way that's risky? Drop banks or standups somewhere that can do this?

The way tournament players play some of these games is so boring. Learn one strat, and just do it all day long. INDISC changed Kings of Steel's playfield geometry to make that actually more fun/risky to play. Other people have swapped the right standup with the center one in the wiring to do much the same thing.

The D82/old school PAPA way with the large rubbers isn't a great solution either.

IIRC sometimes tournaments would disable the ball gate on mousin around before that was fixed with a soren rom.

#4307 9 months ago

I would just make it where the unlimited millions was conditional

Quoted from slochar:The tournament rom nerfs the double score/take the high score thing.
What would you change on the center ramp then to nerf that strat of unlimited millions? I haven't played police force since it came out in the 80s-90s.... probably last time was in 1995 or so - just don't remember the ins and outs of the game. Maybe don't advance the center ramp scoring by shooting the ramp? It times out like cyclone/comet does right? Maybe advance it some other way that's risky? Drop banks or standups somewhere that can do this?
The way tournament players play some of these games is so boring. Learn one strat, and just do it all day long. INDISC changed Kings of Steel's playfield geometry to make that actually more fun/risky to play. Other people have swapped the right standup with the center one in the wiring to do much the same thing.
The D82/old school PAPA way with the large rubbers isn't a great solution either.
IIRC sometimes tournaments would disable the ball gate on mousin around before that was fixed with a soren rom.

#4308 9 months ago
Quoted from jrcmlc:

I would just make it where the unlimited millions was conditional

On what? You mean just an adjustment for it and do something else if you have the adjustment off instead?

#4309 9 months ago

Do and if/then like...you have to accomplish X and Y before unlimited millions is lit and then only for a certain period of time, seems easy enough for a guy that doesn't code anymore. LOL

Quoted from slochar:On what? You mean just an adjustment for it and do something else if you have the adjustment off instead?

#4310 9 months ago

It might be really easy you find whatever those drops do and add it to light one of the lamps on the ramp. (By really easy I mean relatively easy for people that know system 11 inside and out, not generically)

I know that tournament players that know the game one way tend to get pissed off when tournaments do stuff like this. AFAIK for instance D82 doesn't have custom roms in any of their games (unless they have a weebly and actually enabled it for that series of games)

The thing I'm short on is not having played the game in decades so really wouldn't know what 'makes sense' to change in this context. Any fool can do something simple like removing the ramp switch to solve this

#4311 9 months ago
Quoted from slochar:

It might be really easy you find whatever those drops do and add it to light one of the lamps on the ramp. (By really easy I mean relatively easy for people that know system 11 inside and out, not generically)
I know that tournament players that know the game one way tend to get pissed off when tournaments do stuff like this. AFAIK for instance D82 doesn't have custom roms in any of their games (unless they have a weebly and actually enabled it for that series of games)
The thing I'm short on is not having played the game in decades so really wouldn't know what 'makes sense' to change in this context. Any fool can do something simple like removing the ramp switch to solve this

Something like that, maybe get all 4 criminals in jail to qualify the ramp for like 2 shots. And add a playfield x or something during multi ball, and take away the random multi ball at the back saucer. It’s a super cool start to the police car multi ball but then there is no point to it. I love the sound package and artwork of the game, the layout is solid too. Before D82 added the big rubbers somebody hit it like 75 times in a row or something insane.

#4312 9 months ago

I always felt like police force could’ve had rules similar to taxi. Pick up inmates. Or something like that.

Honestly williams could’ve had such better rule sets some of these 11s.

#4313 9 months ago
Quoted from slochar:

It has an amazing sound/light show (especially the soundtrack, for sure).
The problem is you could have a left flipper broken on it and not notice for several games (kind of kidding)
i.e. shoot the ball back to the top.... gametime super long. Once you master those 2 shots to the top via the left ramp and the vuk, you will play all day. I'm not sure what if anything could be done to alleviate this flaw, despite my having 2 of these over the years (one I bought distrib. demo new in 1990, the other around 2004). The original BK had that bouncy rubber before the upper left flipper that always bounces it above the upper right flipper to come down so the upper PF is much more drainy than BK2K.
What a rush on 2k when you get Random spelled..... EVERYTHING IS LIT!

I've thought about the possibility of modifying the top playfield wireform to make balls from the upper playfield drain to the right outlane if they don't exit through one of the W-A-R lanes/the lock; it would theoretically introduce a lesser sort of Black Hole-style risk where you risk losing a ball from the upper playfield if you don't have the right outlane Magna-Save lit. Looping the upper playfield would still be the prevailing strategy, but it'd at least be less free than it already is. It's a bit of unfortunate design, but I think the theme, art, and sound generally make up for it.

Quoted from Blackbeard:

Rank:
Space station, grand liz, cyclone, jokerz, fire!

Is the idea that you're looking to add one of these to your collection? I think every game here excels at something in some way.

Fire is the game I'll single out for liking the least. I like Fire a lot (the sound design is incredible and I think it uses the plug between the flippers very well), but I could never understand how the scoring in the game works. The skill shot and end-of-ball bonus make enough sense, but it can feel like points for putting out fires and the million you can get during multiball are awarded pretty randomly regardless of how many fires there are on the playfield or the current playfield multiplier. I'm certain I'm wrong (and I would definitely like to be), but I've never seen it explained particularly well. I guess it makes the game more "chaotic", which isn't necessarily a bad thing if you like a "ball is wild" sort of experience.

The rest of the games I think are really timeless for how they blend classic and modern gameplay. Space Station I'm pretty sure is the most recent production game to have an EM-style no-inlanes layout, which makes ball control and gameplay pretty one-of-a-kind. Jokerz plays a lot like a bonus-collect EM game while also having multiball and other modern game features. Cyclone is the one game in this list that I own, and I love it for being a single-ball game; overall game strategy isn't focused on lighting locks and playing multiball, which makes every shot feel more valuable and rewards good moment-to-moment decision-making. Grand Lizard I think would be a perfect game if not for the fact that you don't have to light the ball locks given how valuable they are; the playfield layout is absolutely phenomenal otherwise. The "best" game among these I think is informed by what kind of experience you find the most fun to play. For my money, they're all very close, but I say Cyclone > Jokerz > Grand Lizard > Space Station > Fire.

#4314 9 months ago

Yep. Looking to add another title and only have space for one.

My list is the same as yours.

#4315 9 months ago
Quoted from Blackbeard:

Yep. Looking to add another title and only have space for one.
My list is the same as yours.

Space Station has amazing sound, good gameplay and an amazing lightshow. I really want to love Jokerz but the sounds are just a turn off to me personally. It shoots fine in my opinion though. I don't have enough time on Grand Lizard to comment intelligently.

My father in law got a Space Station and also has a Police Force. I'd love to get the Space Station from him. It's super fun.

Chris

#4316 9 months ago

System 11c left display segment g is out in Bugs Bunny. The issue goes away with an mpu swap. Any ideas where I should be looking?

#4317 9 months ago

I would put “bad” cpu in, turn game on, and wiggle the connectors associated w display on cpu.

Sounds like a loose male header

#4318 9 months ago
Quoted from sullivcd40:

System 11c left display segment g is out in Bugs Bunny. The issue goes away with an mpu swap. Any ideas where I should be looking?

Looks like src2 might have a cracked pin.

IMG_0516 (resized).jpegIMG_0516 (resized).jpeg
#4319 9 months ago

Thought I would throw it out there again to see if anyone has ever tried swapping populated playfields between any of the first three system 11 games, High Speed, Road Kings, and Grand Lizard. Would it be possible to have one cabinet and be able to drop in any of these three playfields and swap Roms?

#4320 9 months ago
Quoted from jrcmlc:

I think police force is sort of underrated.

Agreed. I like how Taxi plays more, but Police Force is fun and quirky. While my high scores are from the center ramp and take high score, I'm not good enough to hit the ramp all day, so I do go for other scoring strategies like the Jackpot or spell P-O-L-I-C-E. I wouldn't consider myself a great player (my best in PF is a little over 17mil), so it's kind of my speed for trying to master different shots.

I actually got this machine for my wife since she likes the police/detective kind of shows, but she didn't really get into it other than the flashing lights topper. Probably will eventually swap Police Force for a Taxi, and then add a Whirlwind at some point since I only have room for two machines at the moment.

#4321 9 months ago

Just keep them all line them up. System 11 FTW

Quoted from Ryguy80:Agreed. I like how Taxi plays more, but Police Force is fun and quirky. While my high scores are from the center ramp and take high score, I'm not good enough to hit the ramp all day, so I do go for other scoring strategies like the Jackpot or spell P-O-L-I-C-E. I wouldn't consider myself a great player (my best in PF is a little over 17mil), so it's kind of my speed for trying to master different shots.
I actually got this machine for my wife since she likes the police/detective kind of shows, but she didn't really get into it other than the flashing lights topper. Probably will eventually swap Police Force for a Taxi, and then add a Whirlwind at some point since I only have room for two machines at the moment.

#4322 9 months ago
Quoted from jrcmlc:

Just keep them all line them up. System 11 FTW

I agree! Never should have sold Taxi, BK2K, Fire! or Diner.

I'm still happy with my current System 11's though

Chris

High Speed (resized).jpgHigh Speed (resized).jpgWhirlwind (resized).jpgWhirlwind (resized).jpgsystem 11 row (resized).jpgsystem 11 row (resized).jpg
#4323 9 months ago

That's a great lineup. I need to sell my fish tales, it doesn't get played.

Quoted from SilverUnicorn:I agree! Never should have sold Taxi, BK2K, Fire! or Diner.
I'm still happy with my current System 11's though
Chris[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

#4324 9 months ago

I’ve had all 30 SYS11s for a number of years now.

Just started moving some pins out - can’t keep ‘em all. Sold a dozen in the last month. Just some that didn’t get played much or used in the tournaments I hold.

I think 4 SYS11s went out the door … only 26 left. Probably move some more at some stage. It’d be nice to get the car in the garage one day. Lol

rd

#4325 9 months ago

Rotor: what are your top 3 11 games?

#4326 9 months ago
Quoted from Blackbeard:

Rotor: what are your top 3 11 games?

I don’t rank things.

I like em all.

Well, most of them. Most of the time.

rd

#4327 9 months ago
Quoted from sullivcd40:

Looks like src2 might have a cracked pin. [quoted image]

I went through and tested all pins on src1-9. I found low resistance on one pin of src 1 and all pins on src4 and src 5. The low readings were all 2.46 give or take. I’m assuming one or multiple of these are causing my display issues. How do I confirm my suspicion prior to replacing those out of spec srcs?

#4328 9 months ago
Quoted from sullivcd40:

I went through and tested all pins on src1-9. I found low resistance on one pin of src 1 and all pins on src4 and src 5. The low readings were all 2.46 give or take. I’m assuming one or multiple of these are causing my display issues. How do I confirm my suspicion prior to replacing those out of spec srcs?

Looks like g segment and comma runs through src2, which tested fine. This is not making sense to me.

IMG_0519 (resized).jpegIMG_0519 (resized).jpeg
#4329 9 months ago
Quoted from sullivcd40:

This is not making sense to me.

measuring_in_circuit.jpgmeasuring_in_circuit.jpg

Measuring between yellow points? You are also measuring between the red points since there is a common point connected (as shown in magenta).

Quoted from sullivcd40:

How do I confirm my suspicion prior to replacing those out of spec srcs?

These things are almost never at fault. The more likely component at fault (the path you are actually measuring showing the difference) is the RED path.

#4330 9 months ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

[quoted image]
Measuring between yellow points? You are also measuring between the red points since there is a common point connected (as shown in magenta).

These things are almost never at fault. The more likely component at fault (the path you are actually measuring showing the difference) is the RED path.

Yes, measuring resistance between the yellow points is 4.65 at each point. I just tested for continuity between pin 8 on src2 and leg 16 on u41 and got a beep. Where else should I be testing. Thanks for your help Victor.

#4331 9 months ago
Quoted from sullivcd40:

Where else should I be testing.

DMM measurements are static measurements. These can show you obvious failures (without power applied). If the DMM measurements produce correct results (and you are still experiencing a failure) then you need to do functional measurements. This is the realm of logic probes (and oscilloscopes). I don't know your experience level. If you have a logic probe then bust it out. If you don't have a logic probe then you can purchase and learn how to use one if you're interested. Otherwise, if you're not interested in learning then I think you should send that board out for repair.

Someone else may have a differing opinion or path forward. There are many ways to approach problems. If you're adventurous and like to shotgun then you could remove the presumed faulty IC and replace it. I would not recommend doing that without having at least some evidence there is a fault. Any desoldering tool or soldering iron to a board is a risk that can cause further damage to the board (i.e. you are making the problem worse) and is especially so with a big 40-pin IC.

#4332 9 months ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

DMM measurements are static measurements. These can show you obvious failures (without power applied). If the DMM measurements produce correct results (and you are still experiencing a failure) then you need to do functional measurements. This is the realm of logic probes (and oscilloscopes). I don't know your experience level. If you have a logic probe then bust it out. If you don't have a logic probe then you can purchase and learn how to use one if you're interested. Otherwise, if you're not interested in learning then I think you should send that board out for repair.
Someone else may have a differing opinion or path forward. There are many ways to approach problems. If you're adventurous and like to shotgun then you could remove the presumed faulty IC and replace it. I would not recommend doing that without having at least some evidence there is a fault. Any desoldering tool or soldering iron to a board is a risk that can cause further damage to the board (i.e. you are making the problem worse) and is especially so with a big 40-pin IC.

This is a replacement board that was tested using Leon’s test rom prior to my purchase. I just replaced the three src that had lost resistance so I’m fine replacing the big ic, although I would prefer to avoid it. I have a logic probe but I’ve only used it once.

#4333 9 months ago
Quoted from sullivcd40:

This is a replacement board that was tested using Leon’s test rom prior to my purchase.

That doesn't mean anything. You can stick a Leon in a board and it will execute regardless of the state (functionality) of the PIAs. Before a board can be deemed "pass" with a Leon, all and I mean ALL the ports of the installed PIAs must be verified with a logic probe for the alternating tone/pulse. If this verification is not done with the Leon then you may as well put a game ROM in the board and run the diagnostic tests in a machine.

On a side (unrelated) note, I (finally) built a small board that has test software that will exercise both PortA and PortB as input and output of a PIA. It will also test control ports 1 for input and ports 2 for output. If a 6821 passes this test then it will work properly in a board.

Quoted from sullivcd40:

I just replaced the three src that had lost resistance so I’m fine replacing the big ic, although I would prefer to avoid it. I have a logic probe but I’ve only used it once.

I never recommend the shotgun approach. It is relatively harmless (and definitely NON-invasive) to put the logic probe on any suspected signals before heating up the desoldering tool and soldering iron. I have seen enough "introduced" damage from people acting before thinking (measure twice - or more - cut once). Again, I don't know your experience level but removing a 40-pin IC (in a non-destructive manner) still scares me.

#4334 9 months ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

That doesn't mean anything. You can stick a Leon in a board and it will execute regardless of the state (functionality) of the PIAs. Before a board can be deemed "pass" with a Leon, all and I mean ALL the ports of the installed PIAs must be verified with a logic probe for the alternating tone/pulse. If this verification is not done with the Leon then you may as well put a game ROM in the board and run the diagnostic tests in a machine.
On a side (unrelated) note, I (finally) built a small board that has test software that will exercise both PortA and PortB as input and output of a PIA. It will also test control ports 1 for input and ports 2 for output. If a 6821 passes this test then it will work properly in a board.

I never recommend the shotgun approach. It is relatively harmless (and definitely NON-invasive) to put the logic probe on any suspected signals before heating up the desoldering tool and soldering iron. I have seen enough "introduced" damage from people acting before thinking (measure twice - or more - cut once). Again, I don't know your experience level but removing a 40-pin IC (in a non-destructive manner) still scares me.

Thanks again Victor, I have to head out now but I’ll bust out my logic probe when I get back in a couple days.

#4335 9 months ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

That doesn't mean anything. You can stick a Leon in a board and it will execute regardless of the state (functionality) of the PIAs. Before a board can be deemed "pass" with a Leon, all and I mean ALL the ports of the installed PIAs must be verified with a logic probe for the alternating tone/pulse. If this verification is not done with the Leon then you may as well put a game ROM in the board and run the diagnostic tests in a machine.
On a side (unrelated) note, I (finally) built a small board that has test software that will exercise both PortA and PortB as input and output of a PIA. It will also test control ports 1 for input and ports 2 for output. If a 6821 passes this test then it will work properly in a board.

I never recommend the shotgun approach. It is relatively harmless (and definitely NON-invasive) to put the logic probe on any suspected signals before heating up the desoldering tool and soldering iron. I have seen enough "introduced" damage from people acting before thinking (measure twice - or more - cut once). Again, I don't know your experience level but removing a 40-pin IC (in a non-destructive manner) still scares me.

Doesn’t it have to be either src2 or u42? Since the display works with a different mpu board. I reflowed ij22.

#4336 9 months ago
Quoted from sullivcd40:

Doesn’t it have to be either src2 or u42? Since the display works with a different mpu board. I reflowed ij22.

I try to avoid post explicit solutions. I prefer to nudge and hint and have the reader draw their own conclusions. This is akin to teaching how to fish rather than giving fish. If you want fish then I am sure that someone else on the forum will happily give it to you.

I also almost never recommend "reflowing" solder. Whatever that means. I think to most people it means putting so much solder into a joint that it forms a "Mount Everest" at the joint. Either that, or it means burying the old solder inside the joint with new solder on top of it (forming a "Mount Everest").

Take care when reading schematics and identifying component references. There is a reason why procedure in the operating room is to count the number of packages opened and the number of gauzes taken out so that the counts match when the patient is closed. It's also the reason why there is double checking of which limb is to be amputated before actually amputating the limb. Don't think it hasn't happened before. The left limb was removed whereas the procedure listed is for the right limb.

"Doesn’t it have to be either src2 or u42?" I hope you only fat-fingered the keyboard rather than misread the schematic.

s11_segment_g.jpgs11_segment_g.jpg

#4337 9 months ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

I try to avoid post explicit solutions. I prefer to nudge and hint and have the reader draw their own conclusions. This is akin to teaching how to fish rather than giving fish. If you want fish then I am sure that someone else on the forum will happily give it to you.
I also almost never recommend "reflowing" solder. Whatever that means. I think to most people it means putting so much solder into a joint that it forms a "Mount Everest" at the joint. Either that, or it means burying the old solder inside the joint with new solder on top of it (forming a "Mount Everest").
Take care when reading schematics and identifying component references. There is a reason why procedure in the operating room is to count the number of packages opened and the number of gauzes taken out so that the counts match when the patient is closed. It's also the reason why there is double checking of which limb is to be amputated before actually amputating the limb. Don't think it hasn't happened before. The left limb was removed whereas the procedure listed is for the right limb.
"Doesn’t it have to be either src2 or u42?" I hope you only fat-fingered the keyboard rather than misread the schematic.
[quoted image]

Sorry, yes I meant u41, the 1 was blocked in your picture and I’m away from my manual. I reflowed ij22 by reheating the joint and adding a small touch of solder, to rule out a cracked solder joint being the issue.

#4338 9 months ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

DMM measurements are static measurements. These can show you obvious failures (without power applied). If the DMM measurements produce correct results (and you are still experiencing a failure) then you need to do functional measurements. This is the realm of logic probes (and oscilloscopes). I don't know your experience level. If you have a logic probe then bust it out. If you don't have a logic probe then you can purchase and learn how to use one if you're interested. Otherwise, if you're not interested in learning then I think you should send that board out for repair.
Someone else may have a differing opinion or path forward. There are many ways to approach problems. If you're adventurous and like to shotgun then you could remove the presumed faulty IC and replace it. I would not recommend doing that without having at least some evidence there is a fault. Any desoldering tool or soldering iron to a board is a risk that can cause further damage to the board (i.e. you are making the problem worse) and is especially so with a big 40-pin IC.

I tested u41 with my logic probe, pb6 lit the green lo led and stayed on. I connected the red lead to +5v and black to ground on the power supply with the probe set to ttl. How do I determine if this is the correct reading and should I be testing anything else?

#4339 9 months ago
Quoted from sullivcd40:

I tested u41 with my logic probe, pb6 lit the green lo led and stayed on. I connected the red lead to +5v and black to ground on the power supply with the probe set to ttl. How do I determine if this is the correct reading and should I be testing anything else?

The color of the LED on your logic probe doesn't indicate (to me) whether the state is low or high. The color will depend on the manufacturer and model of the logic probe that you are using. You should specify if the signal stuck low or high rather than the LED color.

All segment should be pulsing (alternating low/high) when the display is operating (software is driving the display). This means that all the PA0-PA7 and PB0-PB7 pins of the ports should be pulsing. You can confirm the correct state by applying the lead of the logic probe to segments that are working. Don't forget you can use the "normal" case to identify "abnormal" behavior by observing a difference between identical circuits. You have a control, so use it.

A stuck low signal in an inverting display (11B double and later) should cause the segment to be locked on. If the signal is high the segment should never illuminate. The CD4049 is a CMOS inverting buffer.

#4340 9 months ago
Quoted from sullivcd40:

I tested u41 with my logic probe, pb6 lit the green lo led and stayed on. I connected the red lead to +5v and black to ground on the power supply with the probe set to ttl. How do I determine if this is the correct reading and should I be testing anything else?

On src2, pin 7 stuck hi, pin 8 and 9 stuck lo. On ij22, pin 25 is stuck hi and pin 26 (directly below) is stuck lo.

#4341 9 months ago

Reference:

s11_u41_pb5-pb7.jpgs11_u41_pb5-pb7.jpg

Quoted from sullivcd40:

On src2, pin 7 stuck hi, pin 8 and 9 stuck lo. On ij22, pin 25 is stuck hi and pin 26 (directly below) is stuck lo.

  • U41-15 (PB5) continuous with SRC2-7 continuous with 1J22-24
  • U41-16 (PB6) continuous with SRC2-8 continuous with 1J22-25
  • U41-17 (PB7) continuous with SRC2-9 continuous with 1J22-26

Continuity implies that the signal is the same for all points that are continuous.

You report:

  • SRC-7 = HIGH and 1J22-24 = unreported
  • SRC-8 = LOW and 1J22-25 = HIGH
  • SRC-9 = LOW and 1J22-26 = LOW

This implies a break in continuity between the two points (or you are not measuring correctly).

#4342 9 months ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

Reference:
[quoted image]

U41-15 (PB5) continuous with SRC2-7 continuous with 1J22-24
U41-16 (PB6) continuous with SRC2-8 continuous with 1J22-25
U41-17 (PB7) continuous with SRC2-9 continuous with 1J22-26

Continuity implies that the signal is the same for all points that are continuous.
You report:

SRC-7 = HIGH and 1J22-24 = unreported
SRC-8 = LOW and 1J22-25 = HIGH
SRC-9 = LOW and 1J22-26 = LOW

This implies a break in continuity between the two points (or you are not measuring correctly).

I just retested a bunch of times:
•u41-15 hi, src2-7 hi, ij22-24 pulsing
•u41-16 lo, src2-8 lo, ij22-25 hi
•u41-17 hi, src2-9 lo, ij22-26 lo

#4343 9 months ago
Quoted from sullivcd40:

I just retested a bunch of times:
•u41-15 hi, src2-7 hi, ij22-24 pulsing
•u41-16 lo, src2-8 lo, ij22-25 hi
•u41-17 hi, src2-9 lo, ij22-26 lo

Just curious, are you counting the pins on U41 correctly? Starting at the end that has the notch, on the left side (looking at the top of the chip), numbers go down 1 side, then jump to the right side and go from bottom upwards.

#4344 9 months ago
Quoted from sullivcd40:

I just retested a bunch of times:
•u41-15 hi, src2-7 hi, ij22-24 pulsing
•u41-16 lo, src2-8 lo, ij22-25 hi
•u41-17 hi, src2-9 lo, ij22-26 lo

Just to confirm:

  • Those are stuck (fixed) signals that are different to the other signals that are pulsing.
  • You are testing with game software and only 1J17 (logic power) is connected.

You want to disconnect as much as you can from the board to reduce potential interference.

It makes no sense to me that 1J22-24 is pulsing when the origin of the signal U14-15 is stuck HIGH. 1J22-24 is driven by the PB5 signal. It can't spontaneously pulse (in isolation).

If you're familiar with the Leon software, I think this would be a good time to use it. In all honesty, what you've reported doesn't make much (logic) electrical sense. Someone else may be able to interpret it better than me since my experience is limited to understanding expected signals based on a schematic.

#4345 9 months ago
Quoted from Coyote:

Just curious, are you counting the pins on U41 correctly? Starting at the end that has the notch, on the left side (looking at the top of the chip), numbers go down 1 side, then jump to the right side and go from bottom upwards.

You’re right, I was off one, it is actually:
•u41-17 lo, src2-9 lo, ij22-26 lo
•u41-16 hi, src2-8 lo, ij22-25 hi
•u41-15 pulse, src2-7 hi, ij22-25 pulse

#4346 9 months ago
Quoted from sullivcd40:

You’re right, I was off one, it is actually:
•u41-17 lo, src2-9 lo, ij22-26 lo
•u41-16 hi, src2-8 lo, ij22-25 hi
•u41-15 pulse, src2-7 hi, ij22-25 pulse

So does this confirm that src2 is my issue since it’s readings are not in line with its u41 and ij22 counterparts?

#4347 9 months ago
Quoted from sullivcd40:

You’re right, I was off one, it is actually:
•u41-17 lo, src2-9 lo, ij22-26 lo
•u41-16 hi, src2-8 lo, ij22-25 hi
•u41-15 pulse, src2-7 hi, ij22-25 pulse

I assume it should read "u41-15 pulse, src2-7 hi, ij22-24 pulse".

Quoted from sullivcd40:

So does this confirm that src2 is my issue since it’s readings are not in line with its u41 and ij22 counterparts?

You didn't confirm that the other pins/points are all pulsing as expected. Is this true?

That still doesn't make sense. All points that are continuous should read the same. That's the definition of electrical continuity.

The above statement implies that you may not have continuity although it still doesn't make sense that the signal changes across the SRC. You should measure continuity between all the points to verify it is present.

  • U41-15 to SRC-7.
  • SRC-7 to 1J22-24.
  • ...

  • U41-17 to SRC-9.
  • SRC-9 to 1J22-26.

Something is not adding up because even if there is a failure, the state of the reported failure is not consistent. It's possible there are multiple failures but there's usually only a single failure that masks subsequent failures.

#4348 9 months ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

I assume it should read "u41-15 pulse, src2-7 hi, ij22-24 pulse".

You didn't confirm that the other pins/points are all pulsing as expected. Is this true?
That still doesn't make sense. All points that are continuous should read the same. That's the definition of electrical continuity.
The above statement implies that you may not have continuity although it still doesn't make sense that the signal changes across the SRC. You should measure continuity between all the points to verify it is present.

U41-15 to SRC-7.
SRC-7 to 1J22-24.
...
U41-17 to SRC-9.
SRC-9 to 1J22-26.

Something is not adding up because even if there is a failure, the state of the reported failure is not consistent. It's possible there are multiple failures but there's usually only a single failure that masks subsequent failures.

All of the other points connecting through src2 pulse in test. The only 2 readings that don’t conform are src2-7 and src2-8.

I just went back through all of u41 and 16 isn’t sending a signal at all now. Nothing on src2-8 or ij22-25 either.

#4349 9 months ago
Quoted from sullivcd40:

I just went back through all of u41 and 16 isn’t sending a signal at all now. Nothing on src2-8 or ij22-25 either.

That's evidence that there is a (likely) problem with U41. The (active) signal originates here at U41-16. The other two points on the chain (SRC-8 and 1J22-25) are passive. They don't drive the signal. The most important thing is to have consistency between reported results and expected results regardless of whether the signal is normal or abnormal. Inconsistency indicates a fundamental (continuity) problem.

If you want definitive proof then use the Leon software and test the PIA (in circuit). If there is no signal at the origin then you won't have a signal at the other points (since they are continuous with each other).

The only other thing would be to see images of the board focused around the battery holder area including 1J22, the SRCs and U41/U42. There could be alkaline corrosion here. Alkaline corrosion is the number cause for display issues since U41 drives all the segments in the top (left) display.

#4350 9 months ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

That's evidence that there is a (likely) problem with U41. The (active) signal originates here at U41-16. The other two points on the chain (SRC-8 and 1J22-25) are passive. They don't drive the signal. The most important thing is to have consistency between reported results and expected results regardless of whether the signal is normal or abnormal. Inconsistency indicates a fundamental (continuity) problem.
If you want definitive proof then use the Leon software and test the PIA (in circuit). If there is no signal at the origin then you won't have a signal at the other points (since they are continuous with each other).
The only other thing would be to see images of the board focused around the battery holder area including 1J22, the SRCs and U41/U42. There could be alkaline corrosion here. Alkaline corrosion is the number cause for display issues since U41 drives all the segments in the top (left) display.

Here is a picture of that area of the board. I think U41 needs to be replaced unfortunately.

IMG_0530 (resized).jpegIMG_0530 (resized).jpeg
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